Michigan Votes Forum

The Jan/Feb 2009 issue of Michigan Capitol Confidential carries an article telling of institutions that get money from government and yet also deploy lobbyists to help them get the legislature to give them even MORE tax dollars.

What do you think?

Sample of article, written by Diane S. Katz:

"...It’s no mystery why municipalities, universities and hospitals want to maintain high taxes. Absent ever greater tax revenue, they would be forced to rein in spending. That’s the deceit of tax-and-spenders. Instead, they are misleading taxpayers by claiming that lower taxes will decimate police and fire departments and undermine public safety. What they fail to acknowledge is that state government wastes enormous sums of money on all sorts of projects and schemes that are wholly unrelated to its core functions. Simply put, Michigan has a budget shortfall because Lansing spends too much, not because it collects too little.

That these advocates for higher taxes are using tax dollars to indulge their spending is an insult to Michigan taxpayers and contrary to the best interests of the state..."

Well you do have to appreciate the consistency in contradicting themselves ... don't you?

The Governemt has always at least had that going for themselves.

Because I'm just an ordinary citizen, I'm thankful for any tax breaks I get :)

Well, the State Legislature has put various subordinate governments in Michigan in the untenable position of requiring they provide services mandated by the state, but providing inadequate funds to fulfill the mandates.  

I find it somewhat bizarre and ironic that subordinate units must spend effort and funds to lobby for adequate funding to do their mandated tasks.  But this is not unlike the private business situation in which operating level managers must prepare, present and defend budget and funding requests to meet goals and objectives mandated by the big guns up above, who control the allocation of funds.   

 what kind of business do YOU run where your subordinates have to beg for money? all they have to do is show that the spending is worthwhile ONCE.

is that how they do it in union shops?

crazycajun:

 what kind of business do YOU run where your subordinates have to beg for money? all they have to do is show that the spending is worthwhile ONCE.

More proof that you live in La La Land, and not the real world.

 and even more proof that you have no clue what you are talking about.

you won't answer the questions, so the only knowledge you have about businesses is how to shop in them.

crazycajun:

 and even more proof that you have no clue what you are talking about.

you won't answer the questions, so the only knowledge you have about businesses is how to shop in them.

 

I don't answer questions from jackanapes who claim to provide "security solutions" to prisons but refuse to explain what that means in concrete terms.  

Have a nice day in LaLa Land, crazy.

 if the problem is security, i provide the solution to those problems.

if you want a demonstration of what i do, buy my services.

crazycajun:

 if the problem is security, i provide the solution to those problems.

if you want a demonstration of what i do, buy my services.

If the quality of your "solutions" for anything is reflected in your posts about Michigan politics and government, then I definitely am not interested.  Good luck in the marketplace.

By the way, what does this have to do with the topic of "using taxes to lobby for taxes," anyway?  Unless you are using taxpayer dollars to lobby for the expenditure of more taxpayer dollars on your supposed "services."  If you are providing your services to Michigan government, as you claim, you certainly are using my taxpayer dollars to lobby for more revenue for your operation.  In your cost-price structure what percentage is allocated to "marketing and sales," which is called lobbying in political and government circles?  As a taxpayer I want my costs for your services cut by at least that amount.    

 no, i don't use taxpayer dollars to lobby for more taxpayer dollars.

i am not a unit of government. only THEY can do that. i don't lobby for more money. i negotiate a contract. once negotiated, i don't raise my prices capriciously like the government does.

now that you are through ASSuming what i do, can we get back to discussing why you think it's a good idea that local governments use our tax dollars to lobby for the funding for the myriad of UNFUNDED MANDATES that constantly trickle down from washington and lansing?

can you also tell me why these UNFUNDED MANDATES should appear in the first place?

can you show me in the constitution where they are even allowed?

when THE PEOPLE make a mandate, it is ALWAYS funded by the people. when washington or lansing makes a mandate, it is NEVER funded by washington or lansing, they NEVER come up with the money to cover the extra expenses.

why not?

we do it every day.

why shouldn't they?

because they are the almighty and all powerful GOVERNMENT????

so much for that 'OF THE PEOPLE, FOR THE PEOPLE, BY THE PEOPLE' nonsense they would have you believe.

let's put every unfunded mandate to a vote of the people, with proper taxation attached, and see how long they last.

crazycajun:

 no, i don't use taxpayer dollars to lobby for more taxpayer dollars.

BS.  If you are being paid by a government your are receiving taxpayer dollars.  And if you use your revenues to finance your marketing-sales-lobbying efforts to get more taxpayer dollars you are doing the same thing local governments are doing.  As a taxpayer who is footing the bill, I want you to cut the cost of your services to my government by the amount of money you allocate to marketing-sales-lobbying-PACs and so on.  Period.

i am not a unit of government. only THEY can do that. i don't lobby for more money. i negotiate a contract. once negotiated, i don't raise my prices capriciously like the government does.

You are quibbling sophist tryig to suck up taxpayer dollars. Period. That is the long and short of it.  

Cut your costs by the amount of money you spend on marketing, sales, "negotiations" lobbying, political contributions and wining and dining, and then you have status to criticize others for that kind of thing. 

now that you are through ASSuming what i do, can we get back to discussing why you think it's a good idea that local governments use our tax dollars to lobby for the funding for the myriad of UNFUNDED MANDATES that constantly trickle down from washington and lansing?

I assume nothing about what you do.  I go strictly on the basis of your claims.  You crow about selling services to the state.  That does not happen without your incurring costs that you fold into your pricing structure -- using tax dollars to get more tax dollars.  If you don't do that you are one stupid business person.  But now that you make an issue of others using tax dollars to lobby for their share, as a taxpayer I call for you to cut your price quotes by the amount you spend on marketing, sales, lobbying, etc., to capture tax dollars that I supply.  

Have a nice day in your little twisted up LaLa Land, crazy.

SaneMichigander:

crazycajun:

 no, i don't use taxpayer dollars to lobby for more taxpayer dollars.

BS.  If you are being paid by a government your are receiving taxpayer dollars.  And if you use your revenues to finance your marketing-sales-lobbying efforts to get more taxpayer dollars you are doing the same thing local governments are doing.  As a taxpayer who is footing the bill, I want you to cut the cost of your services to my government by the amount of money you allocate to marketing-sales-lobbying-PACs and so on.  Period.

<i don't lobby. i don't advertise to units of government. i don't even mail out flyers. i can't spend money on taking out legislators, as they cannot hire or fire me. only the department heads of the facility where i am contracted to provide services can do that. and i'm not even allowed to buy him a cup of coffee. so your 'myth' about me spending government money is just that. a MYTH. i DO get interviewed by closed source trade journals occasionally, but that is FREE ADVERTISEMENT. you can't buy space in THOSE kinds of magazines. >

i am not a unit of government. only THEY can do that. i don't lobby for more money. i negotiate a contract. once negotiated, i don't raise my prices capriciously like the government does.

You are quibbling sophist tryig to suck up taxpayer dollars. Period. That is the long and short of it.

<you are a sputtering twit. that's the long and short of it.>  

Cut your costs by the amount of money you spend on marketing, sales, "negotiations" lobbying, political contributions and wining and dining, and then you have status to criticize others for that kind of thing.

< my negotiations cost a phone call..  i doubt that would save this state. like i told you before, i don't WINE AND DINE anyone, i can't. it's not allowed. it's UNETHICAL. i don't do it. i know you would LIKE IT IF I DID, but i'm not a union thug, so i don't have to make deals under the table.>

now that you are through ASSuming what i do, can we get back to discussing why you think it's a good idea that local governments use our tax dollars to lobby for the funding for the myriad of UNFUNDED MANDATES that constantly trickle down from washington and lansing?

I assume nothing about what you do.  I go strictly on the basis of your claims.  You crow about selling services to the state.  That does not happen without your incurring costs that you fold into your pricing structure -- using tax dollars to get more tax dollars.  If you don't do that you are one stupid business person.  But now that you make an issue of others using tax dollars to lobby for their share, as a taxpayer I call for you to cut your price quotes by the amount you spend on marketing, sales, lobbying, etc., to capture tax dollars that I supply.  

<i call on you to make sense, but that don't happen either. i don't actively lobby, or advertise for ANYTHING. i get contacted by technical people to get problems solved because i'm good at it. my advertising budget doesn't even include a yellow pages ad. i don't want every yahoo with a grudge against his neigbor to be calling me. my biggest advertising expense is business cards. my biggest OTHER expense is research and development. which is where i really make my money. now. what business are YOU in?>

Have a nice day in your little twisted up LaLa Land, crazy.

for a guy who 'KNOWS SO MUCH ABOUT BUSINESS, you sure don't want to tell us what business YOU are in. wassamatta, afraid to tell us that you are one of the thousands of unemployed? afraid to tell us that your union job is going away? afraid to tell us that you are a union worker who no longer has a place on the assembly line? afraid to tell us that you are actually a TAX COLLECTOR and not a TAX PAYER.

by the way, what makes you think that everyone WINES AND DINES to get contracts? is that what YOUR business does? is that what you elect your representatives to do?

it must be...

 

 

I must say crazy, you are one angry dude. If things are going so good for you, why are you so pissed? Reading your post, you sound like a very successful business man. If that is truly the case, why the anger? If the entire government changed, would you be that much better off? If you have everything you need now, why would you want it to change?

You really don't make alot of sense. Could it be your just angry? Could it be your really not that well off? Could you be just full of s***t?

Try chess, it's a great game for calming the nerves, and teaching the mind to think ahead. Thinking ahead is good. Try it sometime.

 how would you know? you haven't shown any ability to think at all, much less think ahead.

im frustrated at the amount of bull that the average businessman has to go through here compared to the many other states i do business in. hell, i'd rather fill out E.P.A. papers in california than do any kind of business here. the only reason i am here is to oversee seven or ten contracts with various institutions. if it weren't for the constant headaches, i could leave the simple stuff, serving the customer's needs to other people.

the real funny thing is, almost all the people i hired to work here want to leave with me when i go. i don't mind taking them if they don't mind moving.

happy, productive people, happy to leave this hell-hole of a state.

i MIGHT just miss you when i leave... but probably not.

You know, the huge majority of people I know who work for the State of Michigan are pretty happy to get their paychecks, and grateful to the taxpayers of the state for funding their work.

Crazy, you sound like an absolute ingrate.  It is not becoming to take an institution's money with one hand and publicly give it the bird with the other.

 do the huge majority of the people you know who work for the state take graft and corruption? obviously they do. they are not grateful to the taxpayers, they are grateful to have such a cherry job.

if the state of michigan were my ONLY paycheck, then i would feel A LOT MORE GRATEFUL, but it isn't. unlike you, i make money off lots of people. i'm thankful for their business, but i'd be a lot more grateful if the state of michigan made it easier to do business here.

i'd be a lot more grateful if the state of michigan took less money in taxes.

you expect ME to provide more for less, but you don't expect the same thing from your government. is that because you LIKE your government being innefficient, but you don't like me?

it must be. you don't seem at all disturbed that your government spent two billion more than they made last year. does your old lady get away with that kind of spending? probably so.

by the way, taking someone's money with one hand and giving them the bird with the other is exactly how government works here. so what's your complaint. i'm simply doing business as your government does business.

don't like it, do you?

by the way... who died and made you the mouthpiece of the government? perhaps you think it your job since you are also on the government payroll.