Michigan Votes Forum

Very good idea. CAFO's are suspected as being one of the sources for the e-coli content in the muck that accumulates along the shores of Saginaw Bay. Thousands of cows can be confined in one of these operations, and they produce millions of gallons of raw animal waste, in a confined area. The state needs to be sure this waste does not contribute to polluting our lakes. Much of the regulations now are voluntary.

There is potential here to use this waste as a source of energy also, but that's another issue.

 Waste haulers should be licensed and accountable for their practices.  I saw thousands and thousands of gallons illegally dumped near a stream last summer over the course of several months and no official action was taken besides a warning.  Both the hauler and the source should be held accountable.

 a lot of this waste is used by farmers to fertilize their fields. fields get rained on, furtilizer run-off happens.

do you want them to stop putting this fertilzier on our food crops?

Part of how this should be regulated is how and when this waste is applied to fields. Most fields now are tiled. This means rain water spends much less time in the ground. Instead, it is drained into rivers and streams more quickly than it normally would be. If animal waste is applied in liquid form, as it is now, just before a rain, it enters the streams and rivers in a much more concentrated form because it has not had a chance to filter through the ground.

Regulations should determine how much, in what form, and when this liquid fertilizer should be applied.

The muck along the Saginaw Bay is having a negative effect on tourism in the Thumb region. Animal waste is not the only source of this muck, but it is one source.

Helping farmers turn this waste into energy is another win-win solution for the state. Some farms are already extracting methane gas from animal waste to use as energy, and may be able to even sell it.

 i wonder if HUMAN wastes are part of the problem?

GRAY WATER from human sewage, small factory run-off, farm wastewater?

or could it be NATURAL?

another question is whether totally eliminating these wastes being applied would alleviate the problem or just make it a little bit better?

farmers have been putting this waste on their crops for over a century. what is happening NOW to bring this muck to the shore?

Human waste is a part of the problem, from sewage overflows. Both human and animal e-coli has been found in the muck.The problem of sewage overflows needs to be addressed also.

Totallly eliminating the waste I don't think is feasible, but limiting the damage by treating it and regulating it's use is, and using it for energy is certainly possible. 

Farmers have been putting manure on their crops for years, but Confined Animal Feed Operations are nothing like the farms of old. As I stated earlier, these animals are in a confined space, and there may be thousands of them. You need only imagine the tons of waste they produce in a concentrated area. It is kept in retention basins now, but regulation is voluntary, and enforcement lax. With the right approach, these regulations proposed could benefit agriculture, tourism, and energy.

 so, how much is a gallon of milk going to go up when the dairy has to spend a million or so on a treatment plant to purify it's waste product?

some of those dairies have been pumping out the product for over a century, in the same cramped conditions. the product has made it's way into the lakes for over a hundred years... what's happening NOW to cause this problem that hasn't happened before?

the muck IS a new problem, isn't it?

what happens if we find out that the muck is SUPPOSED TO BE THERE?

According to the Veterinary Dictionary accessed through Answers.com, a CAFO is defined as:

… a CAFO (confined or concentrated animal feeding operation) is defined as a facility with more than 1000 animal units confined on a site for more than 45 days. Any sized AFO (animal feeding operation) that discharges manure or wastewater into a natural or man-made ditch, stream or other waterway is defined as a CAFO. Animal equivalents for 1000 Animal Units are: beef – 1000 head; dairy – 700 head; swine – 2500 pigs weighing more than 55 lbs; poultry – 125,000 broilers or 82,000 laying hens or pullets.

 

Source:  Veterinary Dictionary, Answers.com

The poop generated by CAFOs is industrial waste that carries numerous harmful or potentially harmful compounds.  The volume is a real issue.  We do not allow unlicensed handlers to deal with industrial waste in other fields, so why would we allow it in industrial farming?

This bill is a step in the right direction to make CAFO operators accountable for the byproducts of their operations.

Notice if you will cajun, all your sentences in your last comment end in a question mark, save for one, which is a statement that is patently false. Is there an opinion you have on this issue? If so, just say it. If there is some knowledge you have on the subject that would further the discussion, share it. If adherence to your ridgid ideology doesn't allow you to reason, just reprint one of your rants from a previous comment, they are one size fits all.

I get a kick out of your rants, but I think Colbert is much funnier than you.

 try answering the questions.

i think not answering questions is being DISHONEST.

but then again, no one on the left gives a hoot about honesty. none of them answer questions.

you should try it.

 how can a QUESTION be patently false?

it wasn't a statement of opinion. it was a QUESTION.

the two questions were interrelated.

what happens if we find out that the muck is SUPPOSED TO BE THERE?

AND if it ISN'T supposed to be there... why is it there NOW and not a hundred years ago when these dairy farms first opened?

this leads SOME people to think that CAFO waste might NOT be the problem BECAUSE THE PROBLEM DIDN'T START WHEN THE WASTE STARTED, BUT A CENTURY LATER.

we were warned about phosphates in laundry detergent. then all phosphates were removed from laundry detergents, costing billions, but we still have the problems that we originally blamed on phosphates. so we find that phosphates WEREN'T the huge problem we spent billions to solve. now we wait to see what OTHER problems we must throw our money at to solve.

how about FORCING THE STATE to treat all water that goes into the lake?

that way, the dairys just pump all the wastewater into a BIG PIPE that the government provides at no cost to the people, and it goes to a BIG PLANT that the government provides at no cost to the people, BEFORE it is pumped into the lake at no cost to the people.

new laws aren't going to stop cows from pooping. it isn't going to stop the run-off water from getting into the lake. and it isn't going to stop the muck if the waste from the cows ISN'T causing the problem.

by the way... YOU have e.coli in YOU right now.

it lives happily in your gut, helping you to digest your food. it's one of those PRO-BIOTICS that do yoeman service in the gut, but poison us when it gets OUT of the gut.

the funny thing is... we are not born with e.coli in our gut. that means we have to EAT SOMETHING with e.coli on it to GET IT INTO OUR GUT.

disgusting, i know.. but it's a fact.

now, if the MUCK feeds on cow poop, why hasn't this been a problem for as long as we've dumped cow poop into the lake?

it hasn't been.

so, what are we dumping NOW that caused this muck to SUDDENLY appear?

perhaps it SHOULDN'T be there, in which case, it's an invasive species, like the gobi.

perhaps we have other polluters, which needs to be addressed.

the truth is, you just don't know, do you?

"some of those dairies have been pumping out the product for over a century, in the same cramped conditions."

That, my fine transplanted friend, is not a question, but a statement, a patently false statement. CAFO's have not been there for over a century, therefore not in the same cramped conditions.

CAFO's are a product of modern, scientific and industrial agriculture. Not your daddy's dairy farm.

That negates the premise in your rant.

Your serve.

 are you trying to tell me that the dairies in this state only RECENTLY started milking over three thousand cows a day?

some have been doing that since the days of lumbering in michigan. perhaps not on one square mile, but three thousand cows a day nonetheless.

i hear every day how some dairies have been in the same family, on the same land since before the civil war. i hear daily how very old people remember milking that many cows since the first introduction of the 'modern milking machine' a hundred years ago.

people who's families have worked here for as long as they have been here, tracing hisory back to the old countries of their origin, and they still say that the dairy herds were huge, even back then.

no, dairy waste runoff is NOT new, certainly not within the last five years. the MUCK IS NEW.

so, what REALLY caused the muck?

and by the way... you say my statements are patently false...

how about you provide what is PATENTLY TRUE?

of course you can't.

You are really out on a limb here cajun.

Factory farming got it's start in Great Britain in 1947. It eventually was adopted here in the US by the large agri-business corporations as a much more efficent, and of course, profitable way to produce our food.

The Norman Rockwell picture of the family dairy farm you have is outdated. For sure there are a few family dairy farms left, but the CAFO dairy farms are owned by large agri-business, and operated like a franchise. Family farms have a hard time competing.

The arrival of the muck here in the Thumb corresponds with the arrival of CAFOs. The muck is most prevelant at the mouths of the rivers going into the Bay that drain from the land the CAFOs are on.

I will restate this one more time for you. CAFOs are not the only polluter, human sewage also contributes. Both problems need to be addressed.

The number of cows is not the problem, the concentration of their waste is. It is not profitable for agri-business to allow cows to graze the fields, then round them up twice a day for milking. It is much more efficent to keep them confined for feeding and milking, and use the fields to grow their feed in. Get the picture?

I understand your strict ideology about government regulation doesn't allow any pragmatism in your thinking, but I hope I have enlighten you with my scarce knowledge of CAFOs. Google has much more, if you care to research.

 i've done my research much more efficiently.

i've asked farmers.

THEY all say that they have owned their farms for over a century. i have no reason not to believe them, as the roads leading up to their farms have their name on them. they all tell me that the BIG HERDS have been in michigan for almost as long as the farms have been open for business. no, not on one square mile, but on certainly less than three square miles.

that concentration, when it comes to getting the waste and run-off into the streams and lakes makes very little difference.

people have been pooping here for longer than the cows have, and the 'incidence' of muck is a very recent occurence.

what NEW has been introduced?

could it have been carried in on cargo ships? stored in their bilgewater? clung to their hulls?

could it be a MUTATION of a native species?

did you notice that we no longer hear about the HOLE IN THE OZONE?

why not?

because negatively charged particles do not congregate around the SOUTH END OF A MAGNET.

there isn't supposed to be any ozone at that end of the world. crisis solved.

crazycajun:

 i've done my research much more efficiently.

i've asked farmers.

THEY all say that they have owned their farms for over a century. i have no reason not to believe them, as the roads leading up to their farms have their name on them. they all tell me that the BIG HERDS have been in michigan for almost as long as the farms have been open for business. no, not on one square mile, but on certainly less than three square miles.

Well, this does not jibe with actual history. There are three possibilities here.

1 - The farmers you talked to were not telling you the truth.

2 - You are not telling the truth about what farmers have told you.

3 - You did not actually talk to any farmers and are making things up.

Here's some real information to provide historical perspective:

Michigan farms with dairy herds, 1964, Michigan State University data:

26,980 farms with fewer than 30 cows; 4,679 farms with 30-49 head; 1,371 farms with 50-99 head; 136 farms with 100-199 head; 10 farms with 200 or more cows.

I think you might find the following link instructive about actual changes in dairy farming in Michigan over the last century:

http://www.greenmeadowfarms.com/history.htm

This is the history of a family farming operation in Elsie, MI, that began with the purchase of a single Holstein cow in 1917.  Today, the farm spreads across 6,500 acres (more than 10 square miles) and 9,500 head of cattle.  It is one of Michigan’s largest dairy farms.

The farm’s herd of 325 Holsteins was sold in 1943, and is said to be the largest single dispersal in the history of that breed to that time.  In 1954 there were 254 cows being milked, at several locations.  Herd expansion to 500 milkers, and a new business structure came in 1960.  Another 500 cows were added in 1961.  By 1984 the herd size had reached 1,700 head.  In 1998 the operation expanded to 3,200 milking cows. Latest reported “major” expansion was in 2001.

So, no, Michigan farmers were not running milk (or other) herds on the scale of what large farms are doing today 100 years ago.

Here is a very interesting 2005 article on the impact of large dairy farms: 

http://www.detnews.com/2005/project/0508/14/Z03-275408.htm

Note particularly the comment by Steven E. Chester, director of the Michigan Department of Environmental Quality, who noted, “You take a CAFO with 1,200 dairy cows and it can have the same impact as a city of 30,000 people.”

Anybody who thinks waste handlers in that kind of an operation should not be regulated and certified (licensed) is plain nuts.

Your post here cajun are beginning to acquire the same attributes of our current subject, animal waste. You asked the farmers. Really? You got up from your keyboard and drove around asking farmers their opinion on CAFOs. Amazing. Or maybe you just looked in the Yellow pages under "farmers" and called them all.

If that were true, the responses are to be expected. Try calling up the scientist at MSU who did the study on the muck. They don't have any skin in the game, and will give you a much different answer. Or just say you called them up and make up a story as to what they told you.

Sane did a good job of research. He should charge you money for the free education.

Maybe you could enlighten us Michiganders at the solutions you used to clean up Lake Ponchitrain before you came north to help us. Seems that all the animal waste going into that body of water must pose a problem too.

jmangan:

Your post here cajun are beginning to acquire the same attributes of our current subject, animal waste. You asked the farmers. Really? You got up from your keyboard and drove around asking farmers their opinion on CAFOs.

<yeah, and i bought them a round of drinks while i asked them. none of them felt any love lost at the current CAFO regulations, nor any hope that the new regs would help. and by the way, where DOES the scientist at msu say the muck comes from? he doesn't know either, does he?>

Amazing. Or maybe you just looked in the Yellow pages under "farmers" and called them all.

<no, the coffee shop is full of them. and so is the bar in town. you'd be amazed how willing they are to talk about stuff like this.>

If that were true, the responses are to be expected.

<typical liberal.... you won't talk to the people effected by your draconian laws, much less think about them before you support such laws.>

 Try calling up the scientist at MSU who did the study on the muck. They don't have any skin in the game, and will give you a much different answer.

<no skin in the game? why are they doing a study then? what do they gain? who is paying for the study? and most importantly, what did they discover?>

 Or just say you called them up and make up a story as to what they told you.

<so, did YOU call them??? or are you just making this one up as you go along?>

Sane did a good job of research.

<BULL. he only googled, then didn't even read most of what came up. but as HE represents YOUR side of this arguement, you WILL support him, right, wrong, or indifferent.>

He should charge you money for the free education.

<he can't. he is all in favor of PUBLIC (FREE) EDUCATION. pity he quit learning a long time ago.> 

Maybe you could enlighten us Michiganders at the solutions you used to clean up Lake Ponchitrain before you came north to help us. Seems that all the animal waste going into that body of water must pose a problem too.

<nope. the boys at L.S.U. determined that the REAL problem was the shell dredging going on in the lake, not the animal run off. if you would have RESEARCHED it, you would have found that out. we STILL have a problem with YOUR pollution coming past our doors in the form of the mississippi river. the dead zone is expanding. some say it's a catastrophe, other's say it's natural. what does YOUR research tell you?>

My research tells me your blowing smoke cajun. Whoever your "boys" are at LSU, they aren't the scientist who name animal waste runoff as a major pollutant to Ponchitrain.  Maybe they're the football team, or the cheerleaders. You repubs have a thing for college cheerleaders. Wasn't Bush one at Harvard.

I'd give you the url to that information, but it doesn't seem fair that I should have to prove sources to a guy who gets his references in a bar.

I'll bet, if your story of buying the farmers drinks is true, you were just shocked with their objections to more regulations. Just shocked. Try on your next excursion buying drinks for owners of campgrounds and marinas. Ask them what they think of the muck and CAFO regulations. You'd probably be shocked with their responses too.

No, I didn't call the scientist at MSU. Didn't have to. I was at a meeting where they reported on their findings. Didn't even have to buy them drinks. It's on the internet, and it was in my local paper. Look it up, or ask sane. You can ask someone at the bar, but good luck with that.

Lucky for you sane won't charge for the education your getting. You must need money pretty bad to have to come all the way up north to work.

 i go all the way to Europe to work too. and several of your vaunted EX-COMMUNIST COUNTRIES.

been to England, Germany, Poland, even Romania. i've also been to all fifty states. including alaska. have you?

my business takes me around the world. does yours?

now, the lake has been clean enough to drink from since 1998 when the ban against fishing and crabbing was lifted.

the cows still poop on the northshore, and the runoff still goes into the lake. but the shellfish aren't giving off toxic wastes anymore from the wasteful way they were dredged. nor are we allowing those with septic tanks to drain directly into the lake without some other form of treatment.

i don't know which google site you looked up, but the lake hasn't had THOSE KINDS of problems in over twenty years. it's been a sportsman's paradise since then. in fact, if it weren't for all  the SILT, it would be crystal clear. unlike the lake waters here.

pity it's only about twelve feet deep and gets stirred up with every passing shower or waterspout. it's still fine for sailing, powerboating, jet skiing, or landing the occasional errant aircraft in. (there are two airports jutting out into the lake.

by the way, if you drink BARQUES root beer, beware... they get their water from that lake.

if you drink FOLGERS COFFEE, they get their water from that lake also.

and if you drink water from a well in michigan, chances are that a cow has peed into it as recently as today.

Me thinks you may stretch the truth a might, cajun.

Not much gained from comparing our travel portfolios. Suffice to say I've got a couple of stamps in my passport.

I don't drink Barques root beer, but I'm sure it's very good. Sort of dark in color though. Can't quite fiqure what you're saying about Folgers coffee. The coffee I buy comes as a bean, not a liquid. I make it with my own water.

 but they WASH THEM WITH LAKE WATER right before they roast them. cooking in ALL THAT CRUSTY GOODNESS.

by the way, i just authorized a multi-million dollar payroll on three continents and all fifty states.

how many people did YOU pay today?

most of that went to my GADGET GUYS who come up with the 'products' we offer to our customers.

the rest went to my SERVICE GUYS who keep those gadgets up and running.

not a dime went to a union.

so, how much did you pay in taxes today???

 my travels for business take me there, my travels for pleasure take me to even more exciting places.

my comparison of our travels was to raise a point that my business is NOT headquartered here, and is DEFINATELY doing better than the vast majority of the businesses that ARE headquartered here.

this is due to the business climate created by HIGH TAXES, MANY USELESS REGULATIONS, AND GENERAL GOVERNMENTAL INTRUSION INTO BUSINESS PRACTICES.

now, if you OWNED a business, or even MANAGED a business, you'd know that. the way you speak, the only business you've been involved in is the automobile industry, and then only at a UNION SCALE WORKER'S position.

 There you go with questions again...

But, since you like questions----what do yours have to do with the topic of this thread?

And, while you sit there doing whatever it is that makes you feel so good, when was the last time that you personally witnessed improper/illegal waste disposal? 

And, when was the last time you had to live by it?

And, when was the last time that that waste went into waterways and eventually to water sources that you drink from?

And, what positive impact do you think that improper waste disposal has on the quality of life in general for those folks that must contend with somebody else's sheet?

In between cutting those checks....how about some answers instead of more worthless questions?

Done Deal:

 There you go with questions again...

 

But, since you like questions----what do yours have to do with the topic of this thread?

<plenty, but usually we are taken OFF TOPIC by those that hate to answer them.>

And, while you sit there doing whatever it is that makes you feel so good, when was the last time that you personally witnessed improper/illegal waste disposal? 

<daily. i see it constantly in the STATE RUN INSTITUTIONS i service. two of which dump directly into unlined holding ponds, where state workers come and pump it out into trucks, to be dumped into a nearby lake.>

 

And, when was the last time you had to live by it?

<i grew up two blocks from the mississippi river. it flows all around my house. we are BENEATH it's usual level and it is never far from us or our thoughts. >

and, when was the last time that that waste went into waterways and eventually to water sources that you drink from?

<i am currently, i am told, drinking from a private well that has farm country surrounding it. seeing as since TONS of cow poop is dumped on that farmland a couple of times a year, i'd be willing to admit that it seeps into the water supply DAILY. is that water safe? yes, it's tested monthly, and not because the government says so, because it's good business.>

And, what positive impact do you think that improper waste disposal has on the quality of life in general for those folks that must contend with somebody else's sheet?

<everyone has to put up with someone elses poop. we put it on our food crops to fertilize them. what we DON'T put on the crops flows into the waterways and into our drinking sources. has been since before we were even a species.>

 

In between cutting those checks....how about some answers instead of more worthless questions?

i do answer questions, unlike your fellow travellers. you may not LIKE my answers, but you ALWAYS GET THEM.>

 now, how about YOU answering the questions for your fellow travellers?

Amazing thing about these computers, they can turn some lonely nobody into a mover and shaker. Some poor guy barely getting by can turn himself into a financial tycoon just by taping on a keyboard and letting his imagination run wild.

Some ugly, shy person can become movie star beautiful and confident just by taping on their keyboard. These computers are amazing.

Or some really important and successful person can be just an ordinary man or woman on their computer. You just never know.

People who can never get anyone to listen to them can find an audience on a computer. They are an amazing tool.

 you really shouldn't be so hard on yourself...

i'm sure you're not THAT ugly..

And I'm sure you're not that successful.

Got to go now cajun. Been fun, wish I could say informative.

 HOW can you be so sure?

you don't know anything about my business except what i provide, and a little bit about whom i provide it to.

i can be quite sure that YOU are not that successful.

i know your business is here. i know it is failing, and unless you work for walmart, it will be taxed out of existance very soon.

speaking of walmart, the big w is thinking on dumping michigan and moving it's stores out.

what are we gonna do??? you ask in horror...

you figure it out. i'm thinking on dumping the fourteen facilities i serve here and letting the state of michigan rot off the map.

it won't be a loss, as it costs me less to live almost anywhere else on the planet, and i could certainly use the break on my taxes.

 oh... you learned SOMETHING...

i'll bet you rinse off your coffee beans before you grind them from now on out....

 wassamata? your union rep caught you lollygagging on the company computer???

Thought I'd check back in, that billion dollar deal was easier than I thought it would be. One of my people had all the kinks worked out.

Naw, we have good relations with our union. We give them a decent wage, a safe work place, and retirement security, they give us a quality product. Works out pretty good.

 i'd say they get a decent wage... seventy five bucks plus an hour... plus bennies.

i'd say they SAW YOU COMING...

did they even give you VASELINE???

how's that quality product that no one can afford to buy working out for you?

Working out quite well, thank you.

 yeah, now that the government is bailing you out.

that is IF the bailout passes out of congress... it's getting LESS AND LESS POPULAR ALL THE TIME...

Yea, pretty nice of the government to bail us out, if that's what you want to call it. Actually, they didn't bail us out, they loaned us our money.

And there isn't a bailout bill in Congress, there is a stimulus bill, or, as you repubs like to call it, a spending bill.The bailout bill was for the banks, done when Bush was in office.

It already passed the House, and if it doesn't pass the Senate, the repubs will be looking at being responsible not only for ruining our economy, but preventing our recovery. Quite a legacy. I almost look forward to your mental gymnastics in rationalizing that.

 no mental gymnastics required.

ALL of the republicans and MANY OF THE DEMOCRATS view this bill as folly.

i don't think the new president has the clout to beat this bill through both houses. he failed miserably convincing republicans and many democrats of the merits of this bill.

he's failing even worse trying to convince the VOTERS of the merits of this bill.

the pork is just bulging out all over. trim that, and it may have a chance... don't do it, and it's politics as usual. so much for CHANGE.