Michigan Votes Forum

Introduced in the House on September 5, 2007

Click here to view bill details.

Those who have obtained Concealed Pistol Licenses (CPL) have been vetted as trained, responsible, and law-abiding with firearms. Being a teacher, administrator, or other employee of a school, in addition to holding a CPL, does not make one more trained, more responsible, nor more law-abiding. It is time to remove the nonsensical off-limits areas from *all* CPL holders. The experiment has run for six years here in Michigan, and CPL holders have proven to be extremely responsible and law-abiding with firearms, wherever and whenever.

the law, in fact, i'm in favor of anyone who can show prior training, whether they are military, police, or just joe schmoe on the corner, should be able to exempt themselves from the training, and should be signed up for a permit as soon as possible. i also agree with removing the stupid 'no gun criminal safety zones' from around the state. they are designed only to protect the criminal from the law abiding. as a trainer, i would personally opt to take all the training that is offered for this permit. i think that others would as well. training is a GOOD THING that you can never get too much of, and it is worth the extra effort to get. i'm not saying that it SHOULD be mandatory in all cases, but i am saying that should it remain mandatory, that it shouldn't be a barrier to those who wish to get it. both the military and the police departments i've worked for stress the importance of training. of course, i believe that the c.p.l. training should be given in high scool before a diploma can be issued, but that's my personal opinion.

Sometimes, however, incremental improvements have a chance of being passed whereas a more inclusive loosening of regulations might be rejected. I teach in a community college. I think I should be allowed to carry in class. I do not consider myself to be an elitist. I would prefer for there to be a Vermont or Alaska-style CCW law (no permit required). I would like there to be no, or nearly no, gun free zones. If, though, teachers were permitted to carry before students were, I would accept that step forward and continue to work for that same right for others. Rights can be shaved away one slice at a time like slices of salami until nothing is left but the string. Perhaps we can reverse the process by taking back our rights one slice at a time.

Although I object to elitism on principle, I am a pragmatist. If I may borrow your salami, I realize it is easier to feed it to people one nibble at a time rather than try to get them to swallow the whole thing at once. I think all expressions of support for bills such as this, however, should *always* come with qualifications. It is very imperfect, even by the standards of current Michigan CPL law (for example, the unwarranted discretion it gives to principals). It is also not seen as the end, but only the beginning toward complete elimination of criminal empowerment zones, such as is embodied by Honorable Acciavatti's HB 4759. I think such qualifications should be hammered home anytime this bill is given any voice of support.

I am opposed to this bill. Schools are to be safe for children so why would any person, other than a police officer, require a weapon? Just because a person has permission to carry a weapon does not mean said person needs to carry it. Schools are for learning and the sooner the focus is on that, the sooner that will happen.

All you have to do is allow them to carry and you will stop the idiots like the Virginia tech shooter. If just one person had been armed that may have been avoided. If a few of the boys would have fought back it could have been a lot less deadly but for the last 30 years our sons have been taught that fighting is wrong for any reason. The kid that punches you in the nose gets the same punishment as you if you whack him back. Sad. We have raised an entire generation of nancy boys that just line up for slaughter.

Read Section (a)(i) carefully. What this means is that a teacher with a CPL might need to have additional training at the discretion of his principal. On what earthly basis does the author of this section think that principals necessarily have sufficient background to make such a call. I doubt if one principal in ten has even shot a pistol, much less had any firearms training. If we must have this additional level of elitism, why even involve the principal at all? How can such people, generally with only limited knowledge of firearms matters, make such a decision? Most teachers and principals I know believe that guns are bad and should never get close to a school, despite the many instances of preventable mass killings that have occurred in schools. Further, if we must have elitism, shouldn’t we include college professors and university employees in this elite group? (Full disclosure: I am a college professor.) Have people already forgotten what happened at Virginia Tech? Section (a)(ii) should be eliminated, as the Hummel bill of 2002, 2002 PA 719, allows any CPL licensee to carry in any parking area of any prohibited zone, whether in a vehicle or not: “(3) As used in subsection (1), “premises” does not include parking areas of the places identified under subsection (1).” This is already included as the last line of HB 5162. Lastly, it would be vastly better, vastly simpler, and vastly more sensible for the Legislature to eliminate all prohibited zones. Let’s get behind Representative Acciavatti’s HB 4759 and do it now. When will HB 4759 be taken up by a committee?

Perhaps you should ask the parents of the victims of Columbine or Virginia Tech if they think the schools are safe. Wishing that something is one way when it is another is foolish. If a teacher was armed in those schools, lives may have been saved.

been saved. i don't think that this bill should be limited by the whims of the particular principals involved. it should read that c.p.l. teachers SHALL be allowed to carry. why should my child be unsafe if the principal is anti-gun?

how to properly load, fire, care for, and KEEP that weapon that the constitution says we HAVE THE RIGHT TO HAVE? oh, yeah, i forgot... that's the one amendment that you guys on the left have been working tirelessly to obliterate from the constitution. by the way, if school's are so safe, why do the nutcases always choose a school to shoot up? why don't they shoot up police stations, or gun shops? i'll let you stew on that question for a while, then i'll answer it for you.

what they want to teach. freedom of speech is taught because you can be a liberal and exercise free speech. freedom of assembly is taught because you can be a liberal and exercise free assembly. freedom to redress grievances is taught because you can be a liberal and redress grievances. freedom of religion is NOT taught because you cannot be a liberal and be religious. the ability to keep and bear arms is NOT taught because you cannot be a liberal and bear arms. liberals have fought to be in control of our educational institutions for decades, and now that they are, they have stripped not only our ability to be free men, but our willingness to be free men.

It's time to eliminate all prohibited zones for everybody. Allowing different segments of the population to circumvent the pistol free zone laws is ridiculous. Contact your represntative and let them know you support HB 4759 and do it now.

Give the teachers the option to become trained as reserve deputies. Then they won't need anybodies permission to carry their weapon. The principles I have known are not for the second ammendment so no teacher will have permission to carry. I have not met one principle in Ottawa County that would allow this. Most administrators are against anyones right to carry.

The pistol free zone laws apply to reserves just like they do any other citizen. Reserves are only allowed to carry in pistol free zones when they are in uniform working for the law enforcement agency they work for.

"why would any person, other than a police officer, require a weapon?" To stop an active shooter immediately or within moments. Long before the time it takes the police to respond and get organized, all while the body count is increasing. Please don't let your hoplophobia get in the way of thinking about the children! "Schools are for learning . . ." And workplaces are for working, stores are for shopping, banks are for banking, restaurants are for dining, etc. All places have their function, and that certainly should continue. But bad people sometimes intrude in every one of these places and attempt to badly hurt or kill others. Good people should not be stripped of self-defense or the ability to defend others, especially children. Your wish to continue ensuring that potential victims are defenseless, especially the children, is extremely repugnant.

It only is another legislative effort to create special classes of people who carry special privileges because of the position they hold (their status). It is pandering.

was creating the 'criminal empowerment zones' in the first place. they were pandering to the anti-gun left wing of the democrat party. now that they have STOPPED pandering to the liberals, you are mad. they realize that they are responsible for any deaths that happen in these criminal empowerment zones, especially since the relatives of the victims of virginia tech are all suing for taking away the rights of their relatives to defend themselves. all this could have been avoided if we hadn't made these stupid zones in the first place. it was pandering to the 'disarmament wing', and it was WRONG.

This is neither a conservative nor liberal issue, as far as I am concerned. I am very much a believer in and staunch supporter of the Second Amendment right of the people (as individuals) to bear arms, and believe fervently that the Vermont model for CCW and CPL is the way to go. I stand four-square against creating special priviliges for individuals based upon their membership in a particular group or group. That is exactly what this proposal would do with teachers, if passed. When the legislature does such things, it is pandering to special interests, of which I disapprove.

This is neither a conservative nor liberal issue, as far as I am concerned. [yes it is. this is a liberal issue, disarming the populace at every opportunity, taken over by the conservatives who wish to empower the individual by supporting his rights to keep and bear arms.] I am very much a believer in and staunch supporter of the Second Amendment right of the people (as individuals) to bear arms, and believe fervently that the Vermont model for CCW and CPL is the way to go. [if you support those rights, especially in the context of 'free open and concealed carry of weapons by the citizens', then you should be able to see that there was nothing to be gained by disarming the people in the first place, except the pandering to the leftists in the crowd, and everything to be gained by repeal of the law that takes away our rights to keep and bear arms everywhere and anytime.] I stand four-square against creating special priviliges for individuals based upon their membership in a particular group or group. That is exactly what this proposal would do with teachers, if passed. When the legislature does such things, it is pandering to special interests, of which I disapprove. [i see this bill as righting the wrong done to those individuals by passing the vile legislation that took away those rights we hold dear. this dispicable act created a 'special class' of citizen, called UNARMED VICTIM on several occasions, and the free people of this country are tired of the needless bloodshed. if you stand foursquare against creating special classes of people, you should have stood foursquare against the legislation that created this situation in the first place.]

that option. most choose not to exercise it. if teachers really wanted to be armed, they could be. except that the school boards believe that arming teachers would be a bad thing because liberals have told them that arming teachers would be a bad thing. principals believe that arming teachers is a bad thing because the liberals have told them that arming teachers is a bad thing. most parents believe that arming teachers is a bad thing because the liberals have told them that arming teachers is a bad thing. i'm old enough to remember being able to put my weapon among the many others at the door of the classroom in the morning, as i walked to school armed in order to hunt before and after school. my parents taught me the proper skills and ettiqette, and the teachers respected those skills and practiced those very same skills themselves. i know this because often the FIRST weapon leaning against the wall was the teacher's. we didn't have the mass killings we have now, in fact, we didn't have ANY killings. we didn't have the discipline problems we have now, as teachers stood up, even to armed students, with the backing of parents, and the school board, to discipline students who got out of line. we have been 'cowed' by the liberal hopolophobes long enough. it's time we stood up on our own two feet and did what is TRULY best for the children. if the teachers cannot and will not protect our children, at least give our children the option of protecting themselves. i'm sure that all it will take is a few armed teachers and students in every school to 'turn the tide' of the next random murder spree much sooner than we have been seeing recently. if your teacher will not do what is necessary to protect your student, or allow your student to protect themselves, then they do not need to be teaching your student. SOMEONE needs to be armed in every classroom, don't let the hopolophobes tell you any different.

About the fitness of teachers to teach. It is about creating a special class of citizens empowered to carry concealed firearms where others are not permitted, by law, to do so.

and is qualified to get a permit gets one. there is no special class involved. i agree that a permit should be as simple and as inexpensive as applying for it, and getting it if the background check comes back clear. it should cost no more than the paper it's printed on and the polaroid that's on it. not $150.00 or more. you keep thinking that because the legislation says teachers AND permit holders, (the teachers must be both) that this legislation CREATES a new class of citizen. the teachers that now hold a permit will still hold them, and no teacher that doesn't qualify will hold a permit. it only bypasses a stupid law that protects criminals by making school grounds a 'gun free zone'. if this law were not in place, perhaps virginia tech wouldn't have happened, or columbine, for that matter.

this bill was never, and will never be about the fitness of teachers to teach. it IS about the ability of QUALIFIED (by virtue of posessing a valid concealed carry permit) teachers to carry a firearm legally in the classroom environment. the bill SHOULD also address anyone who has a valid concealed carry permit to carry on school grounds. in fact, the 'gun free zone' laws should all be repealed immediately. we've tried it the liberal way, and students died. it's time we put some SENSE into our laws and REALLY protect our children. to assume that an otherwise law abiding citizen would simply go on a rampage wasn't even concievable ten years ago. now it's almost commonplace. thanks to the liberals, if someone DOES go on a rampage, we have to wait for the police to come to save our children. we cannot and should not have a police officer in every classroom, but we CAN AND SHOULD have an armed teacher there. if principals have a problem with armed teachers, they should have to sign a note of responsibility to all the parents, stating that he will be held personally responsible if anyone harms their children. i don't see why the principals and administrators who lobbied for the 'criminal safety zones' shouldn't be held responsible for all the deaths that they have caused.

a deep thinker posts: >you keep thinking that because the legislation says teachers AND permit holders, (the teachers must be both) that this legislation CREATES a new class of citizen. the teachers that now hold a permit will still hold them, and no teacher that doesn't qualify will hold a permit.< This legislation does in fact does propose to create a new class of privileged citizens. No matter how you feel about Michigan’s current CCW law, you must recognize that reality. As Michigan’s CCW law stands today, the fact that someone is a teacher has absolutely no bearing on his or her qualification (or disqualification) to carry a concealed weapon anywhere it is legal to do so. This bill would change that. I am not a teacher. If this law passes I still will not be legally permitted to carry a firearm – concealed or otherwise – in a school if I have a CPL. But teachers who hold CPLs may be permitted to do so. That means they have a privilege I do not. This is not because they have superior training or any other special qualification in the handling of weapons or art of self defense, but simply because they are teachers. The government should not create specially privileged classes of individuals on such a basis.

if you would have finished reading my post, it says that ALL permit holders should be permitted to carry on campus. it also says that permits should only cost what the printing costs, and the photo, nothing more. it also goes on to say much more. you should try reading it.

I read your post. Was not impressed with most of it.

Yes, this bill creates a special class of citizenry. Yes, it is unfair to those of us who hold CPLs, but do not happen to be teachers. Pass it anyway. It is the first step toward eliminating those "criminal empowerment zones," and let's face it: In the event violence strikes in a school, those of us with CPLs will not be there to do anything about it. We need to give teachers a fighting chance to protect themselves, and our children.

A poster supporting this bill writes: >It is the first step toward eliminating those "criminal empowerment zones"< That "incrementalism" is a classic tactic employed by "liberals," who are almost universally despised here and commonly descibed as loathesome creatures. If one really wants to eliminate the no-weapons zones as set out in Michigan’s CCW law, the logical step is to throw support behind HB 4759, introduced earlier this year by Re. Accciavatti. HB 4759 doesn’t pussyfoot around, pander to fears and create a specially privileged class of citizens. It directly and decisively proposes to allow CCW license holders to carry anywhere – no exceptions.

it said THAT TOO.

you simply repeated what someone else already had posted, after you or some other ranter had used this issue top take another whack at teachers. you keep telling us to read your posts, as if they were something special. well, I have read your posts. evidently, you think they are a lot more readable, important, insightful and worthwhile than I do. mostly, they are just filler.

inform us that you oppose this legislation because it creates a new class of citizen. new classes of citizens are 'created' all the time. everyone with a driver's license is in a separate class of citizenry than everyone who DOESN'T have a driver's license. or to put it in a way that YOU will understand, everyone who has a teaching certificate is in a separate class of citizenry than everyone who doesn't. this bill doesn't create a separate class of citizenry, they 'created' themselves when they got a permit to carry concealed. this bill DOES EXPAND the abilities of those citizens, even though there are other bills that expand the abilities of ALL permit carrying citizens. you COULD have opposed this bill because it was wastefully duplicitous. but you didn't. you could have opposed this bill because it was liberally incremental. but you didn't. instead, you took issue with one of the few steps in the RIGHT DIRECTION this legislature has taken in a long time because it 'created a new class of citizen'. at least it hasn't created a new way to make us a class of UNARMED CITIZENS. i for one am glad that this legislature is interested in making a new class of citizen, a FREE citizen. FREE to carry a weapon if he chooses. FREE to defend himself, no matter where he stands. FREE to protect our children from heinous killers. FREE from government intrusion. maybe you are happy being a 'third class citizen', but i'm not. if you would have read my posts completely, instead of stopping at the first line you disagree with, you wouldn't have been embarassed TWICE. now, this legislation is a POSITIVE STEP in the RIGHT DIRECTION. is it a perfect step? no. does it give us everything we want and need? no. does it redress all the wrongs done to us by the liberal legislatures of the past? no. it's a baby step, and it's a FIRST STEP. there will be more, and there will be greater steps, but we need EVERY STEP to be taken, we need to win ALL the battles. if you would be a free man, you must stamp out tyranny wherever it exists.

You support this legislation to create a specially privileged class of citizens. With much bloviation about freedom and stamping out tyranny. Filler. Why don't you support some real legislation, that actually would get you what you always shout about wanting? Why not support HB 4759, sponsored by Rep. Acciavatti, et al, which would eliminate altogether the list of specified places where CCW license holders are not allowed to carry? HB 4759 would accomplish everything that this ridiculous bill purports to do, and a whole lot more for people who believe in the right of individual US citizens in Michigan to keep and bear arms. This bill is window-dressing and pandering, smoke and mirrors. HB 4759 is the real thing. Instead, you expend your energy berating people with clear vision, arguing about nonsense, and posting endlessly to disprove to us how all-seeing and wise you are. What a sorry joke.

at this poster's reply, shall we? "You support this legislation to create a specially privileged class of citizens. [you, sir, are in a specially priveleged class of citizens. you can read, although not very thoroughly, many others cannot. you can vote, many others cannot, albeit through their own choices. you can decide for yourself which political party you wish to support, many other's, through their own choices, cannot. you seem to wish to promote a CLASSLESS SOCIETY. there is only one such society, and that is a COMMUNIST society. free men, no matter which class they spring from, or choose to follow, are all equal, they are all free.] With much bloviation about freedom and stamping out tyranny. Filler. [if you call freedom filler, you have been thorougly indoctrinated inded.] Why don't you support some real legislation, that actually would get you what you always shout about wanting? Why not support HB 4759, sponsored by Rep. Acciavatti, et al, which would eliminate altogether the list of specified places where CCW license holders are not allowed to carry? {once again, you fail to read. or you fail to understand, i don't know which. i HAVE supported that bill, and others.] HB 4759 would accomplish everything that this ridiculous bill purports to do, and a whole lot more for people who believe in the right of individual US citizens in Michigan to keep and bear arms. This bill is window-dressing and pandering, smoke and mirrors. HB 4759 is the real thing. [for once, you may have some small point. both bills are trying to accomplish the same thing, both bills would expand the freedoms we both hold dear. yet you are opposing one of them. the only problem i see with this bill is it's lack of the guts to 'go whole hog' and fix the 'disarmament problem' once and for all. but then again, if it did, it would EXACTLY DUPLICATE HB 4759. i see it as part of a multi-pronged attack on the usurpers of our rights, forcing them to once again assert their leftist positions and cast unpopular votes to maintain their 'status quo'.] Instead, you expend your energy berating people with clear vision, arguing about nonsense, and posting endlessly to disprove to us how all-seeing and wise you are. What a sorry joke. [where you, on the other hand, fight against a bill that advances our rights for a ridiculous concept of 'creating a new class of citizen'. teaching certificates create new classes of citizens, those with, those without. you have no problem with that, even on principle. carry permits create new classes of citizens, those with, those without. you have no problem with that, even on principle. where were your principles when THOSE new classes were created?] there are times when we, to be free people, must take our freedoms back. piecemeal if necessary, but they, in the end, must be taken. i applaud every effort, futile or not, large or small, to win back our freedoms, our rights, and our liberties. i also berate those who try to thwart that effort, no matter which side of the fence they profess to sit upon. i wonder what would happen if BOTH these bills became law? we would be more free than we were yesterday. i already know what would happen if they both fail, the tyrants on the left will have won. either gives us more freedom than we had before, neither is perfect, and one is superior to be sure, but BOTH need support. i would think that a 'man of clear vision' would see that in BOTH bills. we can work out the details after we have won back the freedoms.

the REAL problem with this bill as i see it, and i WAS a liberal once, is that it places final authority on a liberal principal to decide whether or not their school will participate in upholding the constitution and protecting our children. i believe that teachers, no matter who is principal, should be able to teach their classes armed. they are the first line of defense should an attack occur, they are the first to be held responsible if any problems happen, and they are the one who is going to be THERE should anything bad happen. the principal should, if he decides to NOT let teachers carry in the classrooms, be held totally responsible if anything bad should occur. of course, if THIS were written into the bill, it would spell it's death knell. if some liberal being in control were written out of the bill, it, too would spell it's death knell. you, sir, seem to take the tyranny of the left very lightly. you KNOW that they will take every opportunity to place us under their total control, as they have for years. you take the freedom robbing tendencies of the left lightly as well. you KNOW that they will take every opportunity to rob us of our rights, as they have for years. i disagree with the part about principals having final say on this decision. i feel state law should be state law, and it should be obeyed by all, liberal or conservative. if this bill creates a 'new class of citizen' it is the principal who is the 'new class', as he will soon have the power to take away our constitutional right on a whim.

why are principals going to be allowed to decide who can and who cannot exercise a constitutionally guaranteed right? it's their job to EDUCATE not LEGISLATE. if the law says that teachers can carry, then teachers can carry. if he doesn't like it, move to the private sector.

This poster said it all, and said it best about HB 5162: “Why don't you support some real legislation, that actually would get you what you always shout about wanting? Why not support HB 4759, sponsored by Rep. Acciavatti, et al, which would eliminate altogether the list of specified places where CCW license holders are not allowed to carry? “HB 4759 would accomplish everything that this ridiculous bill purports to do, and a whole lot more for people who believe in the right of individual US citizens in Michigan to keep and bear arms. This bill is window-dressing and pandering, smoke and mirrors. HB 4759 is the real thing.”

you would see a lot less shootings. those that would break the law with a gun would think twice to whether or not you are a better shot than them !!! or that you are quicker a the draw than them. most of those that will commit crimes with guns know thatgenerally people don't have any protection other than a piece of glass in thier house or car. so it's easy to overcome someone. but...if we all were aloud to carry protection this wpold all change. oh by the way, REAL GUN CONTROL IS WHEN YOU CAN PUT THE SECOND ROUND EXACTLY WHERE THE FIRST ROUND WENT !!!

that gun control was using both hands.

why do you keep insisting that we don't. we support any attempt, big or small, successful or not, that attempts to reverse the tyranny that we have suffered at the hands of the hopolophobic left. once again, i see this bill as part of a multi-pronged attack on the universal disarmament tactics of the left. it gives the liberals TWO opportunities to cast unpopular votes before election season.