Michigan Votes Forum

Introduced in the House on August 1, 2007

Click here to view bill details.

as a school board member I think this is a good bill.The tax payers should have all of this info.

This should give us a better feel of where our tax dollars are going so we can be better informed next time millage increases are requested. There is nothing wrong with the taxpayers knowing where/how their money is being spent. For some reason,Granholm doesn't want us to have that info. They claim cost of providing the info is the issue. I doubt it as they should already have compiled that information for their own use.

I am also a school board member. I believe this is an excellent idea, why should the public have to go through all the hoops to FOIA these documents, regarding how their tax dollars are being spent. I smell accountability coming with this! BRAVO!

Can you see the MEA going along with this?

all salaries paid.

This is an excellent law.

This information is readily available through conventional means -- like ask for it if you happen to be interested. Our schools have enough task on their hands, babysitting and trying to educate the kids of the communities they serve. This bill just proposes another costly, non-productive mandate. The legislator who proposed it must be an idiot.

This information is already available. All you have to do is to request the district's budget. Most districts already have that published in their annual report.

???????

At the same time that I get to see where my tax dollars go lets institute vouchers so we can get some competition going. The best schools, administrators and teachers will rise to the top and make more money, the bad ones can go away and quit harming our children.

There are those on this thread claiming that we need this law because they are unable to obtain budget information. I decided to test this theory. I went online to Google, entered the words "annual report" and the name of my local school district. Voila! the very information that some are claiming that is unavailable. It took less than 5 minutes to get this supposedly unavailable information. So, explain why we need this law. Even if your district does not have their annual report in electronic form, they all have it in printed form that is easily obtained.

??

The data is not hidden. It is readily available.

I did the search and all I ended up with was a two page document published by our district with pie graphs showing expenditures grouped into 4 categories:salaries and benefits, supplies, purchased services,and other. With a total expenditure of $158,098,964 I'd like to know what the $4,742,968 of "other was" and the $7,904,948 spent on "supplies" and another $7,904,948 spent on "purchased services" was all about. If you divide the salaries and benefits by the number of staff we're looking at about an $80,000 average. I have more questions. Believe me if I asked for the annual report, I'd get the 2-page document.

Are you an $80,000 baby sitter or an $80,000 teacher?

"Our schools have enough task on their hands, babysitting and trying to educate the kids of the communities they serve" The key word here is SERVE. We don't serve you, you work for us. It seems that most of you educrats have forgotten this very important distinction. In most jobs if the product you turn out gets worse year after year you would be fired or go out of business. Since you have an unlimited pile of tax dollars and the iron fist of government to keep your failed business model going (a government forced monopoly) you think this law of business doesn't apply to the public schools. Since we the people are being fleeced every day to pay for this boondoggle that you call education then it is only fair that we see exactly where you waste every penny of OUR MONEY. I would love to take it a step further and have the all the lesson plans published so that We The People can see what kind of horse feathers you are shoving into the childrens heads. The schools only have OUR MONEY to work with. If the product was getting better you would not have this revolt starting. When home schooled kids whack the government indoctrinated kids in every measure maybe you guys should be more worried about doing a better job than hiding the numbers.

How many Catholic schools do you think teach the students to question the authority of the Pope? Do you believe Christian schools teach students to question or challenge the authority of Jesus Christ? Do military schools teach the cadets to challenge the authority of superior officers? Well, why should we then expect government schools to teach children to question the authority of government? --Neal Boortz

are you against making it easier for us to find out how you spend OUR MONEY? What will it hurt? Are you afraid that good decent folks will look at this and say Whoa! What the sam hill are these guys doing with MY MONEY?

To keep tabs on school expenditures, if you actually are interested in doing so. Why do the nanny-staters insist on being spoon fed everythng from the government? Are they completely reduced to a state of helplessness in looking after your own nterests?

The teacher basher writes: “In most jobs if the product you turn out gets worse year after year you would be fired or go out of business.” Fact is, inferior raw material yields inferior finished product, no matter what you do to dress it up. So if you really want to apply a true business model to the public schools, you will permit – even require -- them to screen, pre-test and select the raw material coming in the door to be “processed” (educated). Idiots, dummies and other kinds of uncooperative raw material will be rejected. Instead, you continue to insist that schools take all dunces and ill-behaved urchins and “work” with them for 12 years (or more), long after they should have been tossed into the educational scrap bin. You waste the public’s money by nsisting on such policies and practices.

"Idiots, dummies and other kinds of uncooperative raw material" 5 year olds today are all idiots compared to 20 years ago? You shouldn't be allowed within 500 yards of a school.

INSIST on such policies. they have 'sold us the bill of goods' that the ENTIRE public is worth educating, even those that will never use that education, and those that don't want it. they totally discount the self educated, or the 'home schooled'. they do this because their 'education' contains more indoctrination than education. they also know that if these 'slowing forces' are applied to the entire education arena, the result is mediocrity. they do not wish us to be excellent, they wish us to be mediocre. educated 'just enough' to buy their line. educated 'just enough' to obey their wishes. educated 'just enough' to know that guns are bad, not enough to know that they should have one to protect themselves from the tyranny. educated 'just enough' to know that abortion will get you out of trouble, not enough to know how to be personally responsible in the first place. educated 'just enough' to allow deviance in all it's forms free reign, not enough to know why that is a bad idea.

to taught us to question EVERYTHING, including why we were catholic. we had to 'empirically prove' the existance of jesus, without using the bible. we had to justify our beliefs, not only to ourselves, but to our teacher, and in the end, to our priests and nuns. and this was before high school. your school system doesn't even teach the EXISTANCE OF JESUS.

How many board meetings have you attended? Have you attended the meeting(s) where they were discussing the budget? Have you asked your questions during the public input section? You say that you divided the number of staff by the total of salary/benefits -- did you remember to include all the custodians, aides, lunch moms, bus drivers, etc.?

...are you so lazy that you can't expend a little effort to get the information you want? I was able to find budget information on my school district in less than 5 minutes. How much easier do you want it? If you want even more detailed information (example: the district spent x dollars on a new high school roof) why not go to a school board meeting? Then, if you have questions or concerns, you get a chance to openly express them and get answers. Going to a school board meeting is very easy. How much easier do you want it?

I am not the person who posted the comment that you responded to but I felt compelled to respond. While the choice of words used in that comment was poor, I know the sentiment that the poster was trying to get across. Let's compare today's 5 year olds with those of 10 years ago (I can't speak to those of 20 years ago; I'm haven't been working with 5 year olds that long.) There has definitely been a decline in the level of literacy and behavior when the kids arrive at the school. I won't even address the increased demands (most of which are totally developmentally inappropriate) that the curriculum places on the kids. I work with children in poverty so my observations relate to that population. 10 Years Ago 1. Most children came to school knowing most, if not all, of the letter names. Many came to school knowing many of the sounds the letters make. 2. The majority of the children came to school with a fairly decent exposure to books. They had someone at home who read to them on a regular basis. They knew some nursery rhymes. 3. Their parents got them to school daily and on time. Their parents understood that education was important and taught that to their children. 4. They knew how to behave. They followed the directions of the adults in the room. Their parents supported the teacher if their child was having behavior problems. Today 1. Many children come to school not knowing the difference between a number and a letter. The majority do not know all of the letter names or their sounds. 2. Many children are not read to on a regular basis. Many are never read to at all. It is not unknown to have several children in kindergarten who have never held a book in their hands until they come to school. 3. Attendance among the kindergarten population has really gone down. It is not unknown to have children who have missed 30-40 school days completely in addition to the days that they have been tardy. They can't learn if they aren't there. I had one child who missed almost 100 school days and, since he hadn't turned 6, we couldn't do anything about his attendance. 4.It is not uncommon for a 5 year old to absolutely refuse to follow the teacher's directions. I have also had several parents who refused to address behavior issues that I brought up regarding their child. I've had parents who didn't think there was anything wrong with their child attempting to hit me. With school starting soon, I have 3 requests to make of parents. If you would do these things, I would be the happiest teacher on the planet. 1. Read to your child every day. I can't express how important this is. 2. Get your child to school on time every day. Every day they miss, they fall behind their peers. 3. Teach your child that he/she is not the boss. They need to be able to follow directions.

one of the good ones that would rise to the top in a voucher/choice system. I have a few questions .... "I had one child who missed almost 100 school days and, since he hadn't turned 6, we couldn't do anything about his attendance." Why Not? At the least they should repeat the year. "3. Teach your child that he/she is not the boss. They need to be able to follow directions." This is alot easier said than done since for the last 20 years or so the schools have spent a great deal of energy teaching kids that they are all so special. Nobody is smarter, faster better than anyone else. Everyday I had to tell my kids that life is not fair, everyone is not equal and the only way to have good self esteem and feel good about yourself is to work and study hard and try to excel at whatever you decide to do. The schools need to quit worrying about little Johnnys ego and try to teach him something. "Many children are not read to on a regular basis. Many are never read to at all. It is not unknown to have several children in kindergarten who have never held a book in their hands until they come to school." Alot of the kids starting school today have parents that were the victims of the self esteem / ego building kumbaya education. This all started when the 60's hippies went into teaching and refused to grow up. This is a large part of the problem and to blame it all on the parents as you are is plain wrong.

to jump through any hoops to find out anything about people who work for me and spend my money. You take my money and promise to deliver goods. Most of the schools don't deliver on their end. We don't pay taxes to have our kids indoctrinated, we pay OUR MONEY TO YOU for you to teach them the three r's.

The Self Esteem Myth By Ashley Herzog Thursday, August 9, 2007 Once upon a time – a time you probably don’t remember if you’re younger than 30 – American schools sought to teach children self-control, personal responsibility, and respect for others, especially adults. Students were corrected when they made mistakes and reprimanded when they slacked off or talked back. Most unfathomable to the current education establishment, teachers assessed students on qualities such as “gets along well with others” – and some children actually flunked. In the eyes of schoolteachers and parents, shaping kids into productive and responsible citizens was more important than protecting their egos. Then, sometime in the 1970s, schools began to embrace the peculiar notion that kids should never be criticized or feel self-doubt. The “self-esteem” movement was born – and ushered in a generation of kids who think they can do no wrong. In her new book, “Generation Me: Why Today’s Young Americans Are More Confident, Assertive, Entitled – And More Miserable than Ever Before,” Dr. Jean Twenge documents the spectacular failure of the self-esteem movement, from its birth in the 1970s to the present. Despite enthusiastic predictions to the contrary, raising kids’ self-esteem does not make them more successful or productive. It does, however, train them to always feel good about themselves, even when they do bad things.

now everything except the invention of bread is the liberals fault. Someone had alittle to much sugar today huh? Contrary to your rant sir, not every problem in this country is the fault of liberals, you really might need to see someone about your conspiracy theory issues, sounds like a mild case of paranoia to me. Now when it comes to education what needs to be done is remove all this state testing. The teachers can no longer teach, they come to class to do example problems for the MEAP, or the MIP, or the Iowa State test, or the Tera Nova test, or the....well you get the point to many tests. It used to be that when half of the class didn't get something the teacher could go back over it the next day to try and solidify it in the kids minds, now however with the implementation of the republican driven "no child left behind" act the schedule is so strict and to the minute that the teachers cannot stray from it to help those who do not understand. Instead of learning a variety of material kids are now just learning how to take standardized tests which may I add are most often culturally biased. The idea of not leaving a child behind might have been good in theory, but in practice it is leaving half of the class behind instead. Nor is it fair to put all blame on teachers, teachers have to follow this hideous new mandate to the "t", it is a parents job to fill in the gaps. Read with your children, help them memorize times tables, have them do writing exercises at home about weekend plans or a trip, those parents who do nothing have noone to blame but themselves 1.for voting republican (I just thought i'd add this in since everything else is the liberals fault) 2. not aiding in your childs education for it is you who created them, now it is you who have to set aside time to teach them.

was take the liberal tack to the extreme. state mandated tests that cover state mandated material, which has NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH REAL LIFE OR REAL LEARNING. you don't like it either, do you? NO. now, your call to return to 'old fashioned education' has not been echoed by your LIBERAL compatriots. they call for 'more testing, more drilling in the party line, more pulling bad johnnie up by the wedgie, whether he wants to be pulled up or not. it's a job YOU CHOSE TO DO. you KNEW THE POLITICAL ATMOSPHERE, you KNEW WHAT THE JOB WAS ALL ABOUT. in 'typical michigander fashion', i'll just tell you that if you don't like it, GET OUT.

Look at all the statefeeders screaming in opposition to a requirement of a wee little bit more disclosure of our public institutions' spending habits. Funny stuff! Maybe we can compromise, though. How about we exempt from this requirement any school district which does *not* feed from the state coffers? In other words, if you don't want the state lording it over you, then don't suckle the state's teat.

"jump through hoops" to obtain financial information regarding public school districts. just get up off your lazy tush and ask for it. why do you insist n being spoonfed? don't you have any capacity at all for taking care f your own business?

"don't you have any capacity at all for taking care f your own business?' It could be because I'm busting my "tush" trying to keep my business going here in a socialist country. It would cost nothing to publish this and all you government teat sucklers fight to keep it from the people you work for. Why? "just get up off your lazy tush and ask for it." One week of my schedule would kill a government worker. I am asking for it. Just publish it. Make sure you send post cards during your 12 week summer vacation. And don't give me the bull excrement that you do all your "lesson plans" during the summer. I would love to see you guys get real jobs in the real world.

Reply to #1 -- Because of the way the law is written, there are no sanctions to parents who do not get their children to school until the child is 6. Also, the schools can only suggest that a child repeat a year. Ultimately, the final decision rests with the parents and the schools may not retain a child without written permission from the parent. Reply to #3 -- Yes, the decline in discipline does indeed stem from the 60s but the root cause comes from parents who are more interested in being their child's friend than in being their parent. Ultimately, the raising of a child is the responsibility of the parents. To blame a child's poor upbringing on the schools is nonsense. I had to shake my head at the first line of your post. You are obviously one of those people who have bought into the myth that the private schools are automatically better than the public schools and therefore, vouchers are terrific. You show me a private school that follows all of the same rules as a public school in addition to one that takes everyone that shows up just like the public schools and then we'll debate vouchers.

are of the opinion that private schools AREN'T superior to public schools. you show me a PUBLIC school that can educate BETTER than a private school, at less cost, and still remain competitive in the 'school marketplace', and i'll reccomend that school. just because the public schools have ridiculous rules and regulations doesn't mean that they make education any better, only more cumbersome. imagine the learning that could happen if the public schools taught to the needs of the student, instead of the rules of the state. imagine the learning that could happen if every parent took an ACTIVE role in their children's education (perhaps, let's say because they were DIRECTLY PAYING FOR IT), and every child benefitted from that active role. in private schools, you find NO COMPLACENT PARENTS. all parents are 100% invested in the education of their children. in private schools, you find no medocre teachers, at least not in the SUCCESSFUL schools. maybe in the 'let's start a school this year' schools, but not in the ones that have been around a few years. they get 'weeded out' because it's a STRUGGLE to attract parents with the money, and no parent wants to pay top dollar for mediocrity. now, public schools have none of these benefits. stop trying to make private schools exactly like public schools. they are DIFFERENT. and they should be. those with the means to afford them make sure that they are. we would all like to be able to afford to send our kids to private schools, but unless and until we quit being forced to pay for public schools, private schools is out of reach for the average michigander.

but where would all those union protected sloths go? As long as the teachers stay in lockstep with the union and the dems/socialist are in the unions back pocket you will never see any change. Maybe good folks are getting tired of the "we just need more of your money and then we will start teaching your kids" mantra they keep chanting. Good money after bad..... Look at how hard they fight to keep secret what and where they spend OUR MONEY. You figure it out.

"You are obviously one of those people who have bought into the myth that the private schools are automatically better than the public schools" They Are, it's indisputable "vouchers are terrific" It's my Money, let me spend it at the school of my choosing. Why are you so afraid of competition? "Because of the way the law is written, there are no sanctions to parents who do not get their children to school until the child is 6" It would be better if all kids started at 6. The state now wants to get them out of their parents grasp at about 3...It's Sick. "root cause comes from parents who are more interested in being their child's friend than in being their parent." I Agree. But we also need change. Self esteem is not something that a school can give a kid, they can only teach them to do things well. The self esteem will follow. "You show me a private school that follows all of the same rules as a public school" You guys and your union have enacted a bunch of rules that have ruined the education system. Start by changing the rule that keeps crappy teachers in their jobs and then we will have a starting point.

The teaching of history is no longer a required part of today's high school and college curriculum. Thus young people today have no way to compare their present situation to some past times. Thus the present moment becomes abnormally important. Unable to compare or reflect on the past they become tools of those who wish to control not just the present but also the future. A major step in reversing this situation, if at all possible, would be to return to forcing teachers and not the students to determine what an educated person must know for a free people to exist.