Michigan Votes Forum

Introduced in the House on May 15, 2007

Click here to view bill details.

This is the most important bill on concealed carry since 2000. It eliminates "criminal safe zones" and hence will make Michigan safer than it is now. We need to pull out all the stops to see that this bill is passed. Thank you, Rep. Accaviatti. David Felbeck MCRGO legislative analyst

Sooner the better

but it needs to be the first of many. the next step should be to eliminate the automobile carry restrictions completely. a citizen should have the ability to carry a weapon, loaded and ready, anywhere in his vehicle. to restrict this makes a citizen's car a 'criminal save zone'.

Law-abiding citizens do not suffer character changes upon entering certain areas, so why strip them of the right to self-defense? "Pistol-free" zones are just a guarantee to the criminal that they can perpetrate crime at substantially less risk to themselves, and for a longer time, within such zones. Good to see proposed gun laws that REALLY ARE sensible.

When I first heard that "this was too much to ask for", I feard we had lost our nerve. My thanks to Reps. Acciavatti, and others, for putting the most important change to Michigan gun law since 2000 on the table.

this lawmaker for GOVERNOR??? i'd vote for him...

While it would be ideal to follow Vermont's and Alaska's model of unrestricted carry, it needs to be realized that this step you propose is not politically realistic as a "next step" here in Michigan. The next steps are going to have to be much more gradual than that. Michigan, as is the case with the other shall-issue states, is realizing as time goes by that lawful exercise of self-defense rights is not a problem. This realization is happening, but it is gradual and not all-at-once.

This is actually a reply to: 5) it's a great step, [by Anonymous Citizen on May 16, 2007] but it needs to be the first of many. the next step should be to eliminate the automobile carry restrictions completely. a citizen should have the ability to carry a weapon, loaded and ready, anywhere in his vehicle. to restrict this makes a citizen's car a 'criminal save zone'.

the problem is not with the tolerance of the state towards the actions of the citizens, but of the tolerance of the citizens towards the actions of the state. many states do not restrict the carrying of weapons in vehicles, louisiana is one of them, with your car being legally considered an extension of your home for self defense purposes. that means you can "shoot the car-jacker" (a real title of a law, by the way) legally in that state. why, i wonder, doesn't michigan offer that same service to it's citizens? the free exercise of the rights of self defense IS a service that the state of michigan could provide at no expense to the taxpayers. there are already laws in place for those who commit crimes, so the criminalization of carrying a gun in your car is simply an attempt to take away your ability to defend yourself. why we, as citizens, (not subjects) would tolerate such actions is beyond me. why should i trust a government that doesn't trust me?

Time for the sun to set on the Culture of Sheep Buckeye Firearms Association ^ | May 15, 2007 | Tim Inwood Posted on 05/15/2007 7:13:41 AM PDT by bamahead My first memory of encountering the “anti-self defense culture”, which I call the “culture of sheep”, was a cold morning in January 1975. I was in the sixth grade and was riding the school bus. Suddenly, another student sitting in the seat ahead of me turned and began striking me. This was completely unprovoked. Naturally I struck back in defense. The bus driver separated us and drove on to Holmes school. Before I knew it I was before Principal Will Allen. Also standing there was Mark, the kid who started the fight. Allen asked what happened, and Mark told a tale that was strewn with as many lies as Bill Clinton used in his “I did not have sex with that woman” lecture. Will Allen then turned to me for my version of what happened. I told him I was sitting there talking with my friend Tom Gray and suddenly I was being pummeled by Mark. I did nothing to provoke him and had said nothing to him. Now, Mark was a behavior problem who did things like this frequently. I had a clean slate and had not gotten a swat since Kindergarten. So Will Allen believed me. However, since I had defended myself, I was in trouble too. We were both offered the choice of swats or having to stay indoors during recess for two weeks. I was flustered. “Why am I being punished?” I asked. “Because you fought back,” I was told. I was stunned and disgusted in the same instant. Though I did not realize it in these terms, it was my first memory that I and the other students were being conditioned to be victims - to accept the idiotic culture of sheep. If attacked, submit and hope for the best. This is concept is unnatural to humans; it certainly goes against the grain of my instincts. Just how this cower, cringe and hide in the face of danger concept ever caught on is beyond me. I reject that early conditioning the liberal public schools tried to thrust upon me. Ever since that injustice the anti-self defense culture, the culture of sheep, has left me with a bad taste in my mouth. Their philosophy is not only unjust, it is down right stupid and deadly. Click 'Read More' for the entire commentary. Since the tragedy of Virginia Tech in April, the “sheep” have been demanding new gun control laws. While they have been bleating for more of the failed policies of the past, many of us at BuckeyeFirearms.org have written about how the solution is not more gun control, but more guns in the right hands could have stopped this. We have written about the fallacy of blocking the ability of the law abiding to defend themselves. After all, in our view Virginia Tech’s tragedy was magnified by the ridiculous stance that Virginia Tech and other schools in Virginia have taken by blocking their students and faculty from carrying arms for defense. Under Virginia law they can, but the schools have rules threatening to fire faculty and expel students caught carrying arms. So they were rendered defenseless. The anti-gun left has argued that if the students had been armed that it could have been worse. They say had a student pulled their own gun that they might have missed Cho and hit someone else. A rather silly point to make when we know everyone in the room gets killed in the end… They then tell us that even if armed it was unlikely anyone would have acted. After all, who would be crazy enough to draw a weapon against someone who already had the drop on you? No one would do that, they tell us… History shows that the anti’s blow that argument too. Yesterday I happened to be listening to the Neal Boortz radio show and heard about something I had not caught at the time of the incident, probably because the news media did its best to ignore the following very interesting story about a student fighting back. On March 21, 2005, Jeff Weise went to the Red Lake Senior High School in Northern Minnesota. He was decked out in Columbine copycat garb: black trench coat and combat boots. He had spiked his hair and was armed with a ..40 caliber Glock pistol, a .22 pistol and a 12 gauge shotgun. He bypassed passive security measures, which included a metal detector, video cameras, and even the vaunted "no-guns" signs, all of which were installed with promises of "protection". Earlier in the day this twisted punk had killed his police officer grandfather and his grandfather’s girlfriend. He then stole his grandfather’s guns and patrol car, using the car to drive to the school. Weise’s rampage lasted a little over ten minutes. He shot and killed eight people. He wounded seven others. That is what the press told us at the time and little else. Strangely, this incident did not get the wall to wall coverage that Columbine got in the press. This was after all the next-largest slaughter in an American school at the time. Now I think we may know why the media did not make a big thing of what happened. You see, someone in the classroom fought back. We are not supposed to do that, and to talk about self-defense would be poor form. They probably did not want to encourage anyone to think we should fight back in such situations, after all someone else might get hurt… What other reason can there be for ignoring the story of fifteen year-old Jeff May? You see, Jeff May was working on an algebra problem when Jeff Weise came into the school shooting. The first victim was an unarmed security guard manning a metal detector. Derrick Brun was shot dead on the spot. It might have ended there, had he been armed. We will never know. But making sure he was unarmed was a recipe for disaster. When Weise blew out the window next to the door of the classroom May was in, he leaned into the room and shot 62 year-old English teacher Mrs. Rodgers, who had cried out to God to help them. He then asked if anyone else in the room believed in God and began shooting the students. Jeff May, armed only with a #2 pencil, charged Weise and stabbed him in the side with his pencil. Sadly the pencil was deflected as Weise was wearing his dead grandfather’s body armor. The two boys fought on the floor. As they struggled Weise managed to turn and fire his pistol into May’s face. The bullet entered his right cheek fracturing May’s jaw and lodging in his neck, near the spine. The surviving students estimated that May had tied up Weise long enough in that struggle to have saved the other dozen students in the room, as police officers were now arriving at the school. Four police officers now engaged Weise in a gun battle striking him several times. Weise then shot himself in the head, ending the incident. Jeff May spent months in the hospital recovering from his wounds. The young man is a hero. He saved lives and only now is his story getting much play. I thank Readers Digest and Neal Boortz for turning the spotlight on this story and getting the truth out. Pity he only had a pencil to defend his class. Sadly, this story and how the press did not give it full coverage is not unique. In 1997 in Pearl, Mississippi, a 10th grader named Luke Woodham killed his mother and then went to school with the family 30-30 deer rifle. He shot nine fellow students. Woodham was stopped by Vice Principal Joel Myrick. Myrick had armed himself with his Colt .45 pistol. However Myrick had to run to his car off campus to get his pistol. Why? Because Myrick was complying with misguided laws concerning guns near schools, so he had to run a good distance to his car and back to the school. That time spent running to get his gun cost lives. He stopped Woodham long before the police arrived. Columbine people remember. Bring this up and they will give you a puzzled look. Telling this story will get the same reaction: On January 16, 2002 Peter Odighizuwa, a failing student at the Appalachian School of Law, decided to go on a killing spree. After talking with a Professor Rubin, he then went to the offices of Dean Antony Sutin and Professor Thomas Blackwell and shot them at point blank range with a .380 pistol. He then shot and killed Angela Dales and wounded three other people. Two students elsewhere on campus heard the shots and responded with their own personal firearms. Tracy Bridges and Mikael Gross, armed with their own handguns, subdued Odighizuwa until the police arrived. They stopped his rampage with privately owned pistols. These stories, and others like them, received scant press attention. Self defense and the positive use of firearms is usually ignored by the national news media. Just listening to the press since April 16th, it is not difficult to see the obvious bias against private gun ownership as well as their delight in vilifying the NRA. I have news for them, the NRA is not just a handful of lobbyists. It is made up of five million of their fellow citizens. The NRA membership dwarfs all the anti-gun groups put together. Researchers estimate over two million defensive gun uses a year. Again, ignored. So with their deep ingrained bias they often ignore positive stories about private self-defense that do not fit their mental template of how things should be, truly a malpractice of their duty as the “objective” fifth estate. It is time to get over irrational fears of inanimate objects and allow those who are willing to be the first line of defense not only for themselves, but also be there to help protect others from the sociopaths among us. Ohio has had Concealed Carry since 2004 and it has been a model of success. It is time to do away with all the "no guns" zones and allow us to be safe everywhere. It is time to end the rule of the “culture of sheep.” After all we were born men and women - not wool bearing animals. Tim Inwood is the current Legislative Liaison and Past President of the Clinton County Farmers and Sportsmen Association, an Endowment Member of the NRA, Life Member of OGCA, and a volunteer for Buckeye Firearms Association.

arrest the board of governors at virgina tech for prohibiting the students and faculty from exercising their right to self defense? their regulations against firearms possession DID contribute to each and every one of the deaths. they may have even been the CAUSE of the rampage. at the very least, wrongful death lawsuits should be filed in the names of each and every HELPLESS victim. availability of weapons WOULD have stopped this from being as horrendous as it was. but weapons were not available, self defense was not an option. this makes the authors of the rules against weapon possession just as guilty of the murders of these people as the shooter himself. heads should roll.

Here is an excerpt from Chapter 8 of Skip Coryell's book "Blood in the Streets: Concealed Carry and the OK Corral". To get the whole chapter, go to his website at www.skipcoryell.com. Someone should have him testify before committee. --------------------------------- First and foremost, pistol-free zones create an artificial geographical area where only criminals will have guns. You’ve seen the time-tested and popular bumper sticker: “Outlaw guns and only outlaws will have guns.” This is very true. But, many of our legislators, in their infinite stupidity, took it a step further. Not only did they create pistol-free zones, but they announced it to all criminals everywhere. “You may rape, pillage and plunder with impunity at the following locations: churches, schools, hospitals, casinos, daycare centers, and stadiums, etc.” Someone emailed me a sign that would be funny if it weren’t so scary. “Attention criminals! All law-abiding citizens have been disarmed in this location for your convenience.” Now tell me, does that make any sense to you? Where do people like Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold go when they want to kill mass amounts of people? The answer is obvious, they go to a place with lots of people, preferable unarmed people. Places like schools, churches, stadiums, . . . is any of this sinking in? Think about this next question and take it to heart. If someone is already willing to commit mass murder, do you really think they care about a sign that says: “No guns allowed”? When did simple, common sense become so uncommon? It’s amazing. Here’s another thing. As a former Marine and as an NRA Instructor, I’ve been around a lot of firearms in my day, so I know firsthand that guns don’t pull their own triggers and bullets don’t spontaneously combust inside the chamber. Someone has to pull the trigger or the blasted gun just won’t go off! In short, guns don’t go off inside the holster, they go off when they’re being handled. And what do pistol-free zones mandate? They force CCW holders to continuously and needlessly handle their firearms, usually in a cramped and crowded place like a car. Allow me to illustrate by describing a typical day for many CCW holders. 7:45AM – Holster pistol and leave the house. 8AM: - Drop kids off at school. You have to go in and see the teacher, so you unholster your pistol and lock it in the car. You come back out, and reholster your pistol. 8:30AM - Go to the post office on your way to work. Remove gun. Put in safe. Go inside. Come back out. Handle gun again. Go to work. 9:00AM – Get to work. They are afraid of guns there, so you take it out and lock it up. (Handle it again.) Noon: Go to lunch. (Chinese food) Take out gun, holster it. Return to work. Unholster gun. 5PM – Get off work. Holster gun. 5:45PM – Go get kids at daycare center. Unholster gun, put in gunsafe. Go in, get kids. Come out. Take gun out of safe and reholster it. Go home. So, thanks to the pistol-free zones, instead of drawing my pistol once, I have handled my firearm a total of 11 times. Ten of those handlings were unnecessary, except for compliance with a ridiculous and senseless statute.

as a police officer, i handled my weapon a lot in the line of duty. i have USUALLY been pointing it at a bad person. as a retired firearms instructor, my sphincter clinches every time i see someone having to put their weapon away to go into some building to conduct business. if I see someone handling their weapon, locking it up in a car, you can bet some THEIF sees it too. let's just send out an engraved invitation to steal my weapon, and the car that it's in. self defense is my right. not some privelege that the state may take away at some whim. being armed is my right. not some privelege that the state may take away at whim. the constitution doesn't limit either of these rights as to time or location. i find myself better qualified than most police officers to carry a weapon, yet i find that i'm not the best qualified among my civilian friends. many of them have had more training and experience carrying weapons than i have, and that's a lot. yet they are CONSISTANTLY being DISARMED by ignorant legislators who believe the left wing pap. a concealed weapon permit should cost no more than the cost of the fingerprint check, ($15.00 is a fair price for an officer to take three minutes out of his day at the desk), the cost of the printing, (the local print shop will turn out a couple of thousand permits, six to a sheet, for around $20.00, that's around two cents a card.) and lamination. after that, all the state has to do is HONOR those permits by leaving permit holders ALONE. no harassment, no continued fees, no re-fingerprinting every six months.

carjacked a few months back. she was not yet a ccw permit holder, but she had filed her application. she was returning from hunting on her grandfather's property with her new husband. the carjackers found them easy prey because the guns were locked in the trunk, as per michigan law. my daughter and her husband were both shot, but not fatally, and are almost fully recovered. the police told her that she would have been jailed if she had carried her guns in the car ready to use to defend herself. she now refuses to even drive close to flint, and is practicing her marksmanship to make sure that this type of incident never happens again. by the way, her husband (was) an applicant for the state police. he has withdrawn his application in light of this incident. he doesn't wish to disarm the citizenry. both my daughter and her husband work, but they don't make much, she is a secretary, and he works in his uncle's body shop. neither can afford to spare the money it takes to get a permit. i offered to give them the money before the incident, but i guess their pride got in the way of the transaction. i have since put up the money to repay them the money they used to get a permit. it should be coming in the mail soon. if the permit would have been cheaper, they would have gotten it sooner.

constitution of the great state of michigan plainly states that We, the people of the state of Michigan, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of freedom, and earnestly desiring to secure these blessings undiminished to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution. it seems our legislators have failed to read those important words, and have failed, so far, to secure the blessings of liberty undiminished to ourselves and our posterity.

If this passes, “Disarmed Victim Zones” will cease to be, and our cars will cease to be “Gun Acquisition Centers.” Now, if I can just convince myself that there is a chance of such a bill passing . . . .

At last -- a bill that includes ALL CPL holders! (Not just off-duty police and / or judges.) It's time for the "Criminal Empowerment Zones" to go!

There is not anything I can add to what is so ably written so far. Good on Michigan if we can get this passed!!!!!

Common sense is not completely dead in our capital

convince your legislator. he/she needs to know how you feel. they MUST read this site, because they are taking our suggestions. an e-mail or ten wouldn't hurt either.

It's about time we remove zones where the worst of our society can prey upon defenseless people, doesn't the anti self-defense crowd realize that these criminals go to those places to do their crimes ? Those who are in prison even admit it. Please pass this legislation and save some lives !

Anyone who has a Michigan CPL can now carry a loaded pistol, concealed or unconcealed, anywhere in a vehicle. Therefore anyone who wants to be able to do that need only obtain a CPL. David Felbeck

is not the second amendment a right of ALL the people? not just those with a permit? EVERY LAW ABIDING CITIZEN should be able to defend themselves in this state, not just those who can afford to BUY BACK OUR RIGHTS. a permit is simply the governments way of controlling who does what. remember, with every permit, comes REGISTRATION, and with every registration comes confiscation. our rights as citizens of this nation are to be able to keep and bear arms. it says nothing about being 'PERMITTED' to keep and bear arms. a permit is an abridgement of that right. either you have the WHOLE right, or you only have the right that the STATE says you can have. they are OUR rights to lose, not the STATE'S rights to take away.

It's about time the CPL laws were changed, does anyone feel it's safe to leave a weapon in your car when you are entering a pistol free zone? I sure don't.

was on the minds of the legislators when this law was written. "oh boy, the criminals we love are going to be safe now..." "Yeah... no one will be able to shoot back at anybody who wants to go on a killing spree in a 'gun free zone'..."

these comments are about what the legislators of the ORIGINAL bill were thinking.

Being a reserve officer we are told to always be ready for the unexpected. We are given the right by the State of Michigan to carry a concealed pistol, yet it is restricted in the areas that are most vulnerable. These areas of restriction do not stop the criminals only the law abiding ccw holders. I will be checking on the vote from my state rep to make sure they are representing the right people. I think we all should. LETS GET THIS PASSED !

Best news i've read all day.

contact your state rep. and lets get this one passed.

I was wondering how long it would take Michigan to relize pistol free zones just make it safer for criminals. I recently went to a tigers game and was forced to walk around the streets of detroit unarmed because I did not want to leave my pistol in my car during the game. I am from northern Michigan and this was a scary feeling. Please pass bill 4759.

Someone else here actually express their support for HB 4759. This bill proposes to completely eliminate "pistol-free zones" -- where CCW license holders are not now permitted to carry -- from the Michigan CCW law. HB 4759 is simple, direct and to the point when in advancing the cause of Second Amendment rights for Michigan citizens. Anything less than what HB 4759 proposes is not acceptable to true Second Amendment advocates.

the full and total restoration of ALL of our second amendment rights is unacceptable to TRUE SECOND AMENDMENT ADVOCATES. both of these bills only restore a SMALL PORTION of those rights. using YOUR logic, no TRUE SECOND AMENDMENT ADVOCATE would support either. TRUE SECOND AMENDMENT ADVOCATES support both.

rights don't seem to be the highest priority in this state, as they have been thrown away in exchange for nothing. i'd like to see the removal of the liberally inspired laws that took away the TRUE FREEDOMS that michiganders once enjoyed. it sickens me to see citizens bickering over which law gives back the most freedom. support ALL the laws which give back freedom. and only vote in politicians who will work to restore the citizen's freedoms, not those who will take our freedoms away. i'm sure the liberals were quite convincing when they told you that you didn't really NEED a gun. i'm sure that they were truly sincere when they said that for a little freedom sacrifice, and a little tax increase, they could provide you security. well, you have certainly sacrificed your freedoms, and you have certainly had your taxes increased, now, are you any more secure???? NO. wake up. take our rights back.

Pistol free zones are like shooting fish in a bucket to a criminal. We see it happening all the time. We are laughing stock to the criminals every time we debate this issue. They think we are stupid, and we prove stupid every time we keep pistol free zones on the books. So how long are we going to stay stupid?

to stay stupid? just as long as we keep electing liberal democrats to office. liberal democrats hate guns and love criminals. they have proven it several times on this site.

What are you actually doing to change the course of things? Or do you just come here, ventilate and call it good?

that should make things better. if that doesn't work, i'll vote libertarian. i'm also on the lookout for those who would take my liberties away. those people are typically called liberals, and they delight in offering 'security in exchange for liberties'. they also revel in opportunities to ridicule. are you one of those liberals?

i'm contacting my representatives almost daily. i'm posting my thoughts here daily. i'm discussing rights and liberties with anyone who will listen, especially those who think that we don't have (or shouldn't have) those rights. i'm arming myself. i'm defending myself against all enemies, foreign and domestic. i'm participating in the governmental process, not just observing it. now, what are YOU doing to make life better?

course of things HAS changed. we now have the right to defend ourselves without the duty to retreat. we now have concealed carry permits. we will soon have done away with 'gun free zones'. we will soon have done away with pistol registration and safety checks that don't actually check for safety. we will soon have capital punishment. we will soon have many more freedoms and liberties than we have had for over a hundred years. and finally, we will soon be good and rid of jennie.