Michigan Votes Forum

Introduced in the House on May 17, 2005, to prohibit public schools from starting the school year before Labor Day

The vote was 69 in favor, 40 opposed and 1 not voting

(House Roll Call 334 at House Journal 62)

Click here to view bill details.

So the next few years will see a backlash of outcry becasue schools will be in session through mid and late June. Ban that. Then the outcry will be that the students are in school too long during the day (longer days because we can only go September to May). Ban that. Then it will be too late, the students who are by now the worst educated in the world can't figure out how to tie their own shoes, let alone run a country. A dire prediction, yes. But the tourism industry is deciding these issues. This is insane.

They may as well ban public school altogether as the results of a public education in America are worthless. Education is no longer aimed at "the children", it's aimed at teachers wages and benefits.

right the education system is focused on teacher's wages and benefits....not even close! this system isn't for the students, teachers or communities. our education system in this country is crap at the best. i'm still baffled that it can be believed for a second that it is focused on teaching positions. it's focused on producing obedient masses that are easily controled by obvious morons.

What has the House Natural Resources, Great Lakes, Land Use, and Environment Committee have to do with the school year? Wonder how much the MEA and other school unions donated to Gaffney's campaign. He's a perfect example of our education system.

. . . in blaming teachers, their unions and other "education" interests for this cockamamie bill. Look first to the venal commercial interest of businesses involved with the tourista "industry." Supported by self-interested parents who see school calendars as an imposition on their own convenience, they're the ones who have been driving this foolishness, for years.

i was wondering that also...

so true...both of my parents were public school teachers ((5th&7th grades)now retired) and it is unbelievable the sh*t they had to deal with from parents. teachers are barely let to do their jobs these days because so many people think that they can just go in and make the rules because of their kid(s). and most often it is the parent wanting to revise exceptions for their kid(s) only. then on top of that, because parents are so persistent and i will go so far to say crazed (and yes, that is a very appropriate term) when it comes to their offspring, they do everything to get the powers that be in the system on their side. what is moat interesting is that parents seem to take the most significant interest in their kids' education when it comes to the trite and not nearly as much when it matters.

also, to add to the thoughts that I posted in 'teachers', that sort of attitude is apparent in the university system. it's the consumer approach to education; students think that everything in their education should be completely suited to their lazy and grade driven whims. especially if that grade is not earned. I go to school at GVSU and am so often saddened by how persistent students in my classes beg and pressure professors to drop requirements down to a minimum. and then if the prof. is not obedient, she is immediately labeled as a bad teacher who is sure to be berated constantly by complaints. my question is, why the heck are these kids in school in the first place if they want nothing to do with theri education. an interesting point to add is the fact that students choose their professors... this means that if a prof. is too 'hard' (hard being defined as any amount of work that requires even remotely extensive thought) then the prof. doesn't have students to fill her classroom. this may sound extreme, but i assure you it isn't. also, GVSU is the biggest user of rateyourprofessor.com (or ratemyprofessor, i'm not sure) which provides such important criteria to rate professors by such as 'hotness' and gets out the word for other disinterested students about what classes are fun and not... give me a break, with the expectations of fun right now, classes would have to be springbreak style in order for much of anyone to be pleased. It is just really too bad that our system doesn't support education for education. there are too many other interests in the way. from there people expect that every detail by their wants should be provided because it is their 'right' or because they pay. i understand having rights, but when we stop having discretion considering importance and think that it's your 'right' to have 'fun' at school becuse you paid, there needs to be some serious personal and institutional reflection. and, yea, we pay a ton to go to school when education should be a 'right' that we fight for, not a priviledge for those who can afford it or are willing to jump out into the terrifying idea of such debt in this terrible job market (which is still really horrible for even highly accomplished higher ed. graduates).....but even thought we pay that much, universities are still public institutions (not all of course) where tax dollars that didn't come from your pocket are helping fund a significant portion of what it actually costs for a student to attend. So, yea, you paid, but so did the rest of the state so make some use of your education instead of thinking it an atrocity for a prof. to assign homework. anyway that turned into a rant, but an important one....the university trends of today are a product of the system that exist on the primary and secondary level. let me say, that the future is looking scary from here.

Oh yes! Our Public school teachers work a painful six months a year!! (1098 hours to be exact.) they need extra vacation time!!!!!!!!!!

>Oh yes! Our Public school teachers work a painful six months a year!! (1098 hours to be exact.) they need extra vacation time!!!!!!!!!! < This bill really is driven by the tourist industry interests. Supposedly, schools that start before Labor Day deprive them of economic opportunity by effectively shortening the prime summer vacation season. The part about teachers working only 6 months a year is pure myth and has no basis in fact. That 1,098 hours is set up as “student contact” or “instructional” hours, which does not include time spent by the teacher on lesson preparation, paper grading, grade recording, parent conferences, providing “extra” help to students who need and request it, attending classes and workshops and training sessions to stay abreast of developments in instructional methods and technology, working on curriculum development and improvement, writing grant applications, preparing various reports mandated by this agency or that, and a host of other professional activities related to their classroom jobs. Simple truth is that teachers, as a group, earn their pay in the good old fashion way: by working hard for it over long hours just like almost everybody else does.

Set aside the idea about teachers getting more vacation time, set aside the idea about the tourism industry getting more dollars. Think about spending just a little more time with your kids on a family vacation at the end of the summer just before school starts. That happens to be a long weekend that most folks have off and it does make for a good long weekend at the end of the summer. Spend some time with your kids on that weekend while you can. How many times are they going to be 6, or 7 or..... A concerned parent.

>Think about spending just a little more time with your kids on a family vacation at the end of the summer just before school starts.< This is a grand idea. Families should spend quality time together. But do we need a state law mandating that school can’t start prior to Labor Day to accomplish it? Isn’t the start (and end) date for school properly a matter for local districts and their constituent communities to determine?

By the previous posting we should all wait until a holiday to have some quality time with our kids? Why not have it the week end before labor day. Why not have it every week end? There are 51 other weekends to choose from. To claim anything else just sounds like special interest. This whole thing is being driven by one organization. Not the teachers, not the parents, but the tourism lobby groups pure and simple.

What does the House Natural Resources, Great Lakes, Land Use, and Environment Committee have to do with education?

If you do the math, you'd find out that being a teacher doesn't pay as well as being a day care provider who is expected do little more than make sure kids don't die. Anyone that I have ever talked to that has been in a classroom who is not a teacher (ie. volunteer, parent, substitute, etc.) has told me that they realize why we teachers need to have summers off. The average person in the average job works 8-4 or 9-5 and generally has little or nothing to do with work until the next day. As was stated in a previous post, teachers are not afforded this luxury. During the average week, I spend approximately 15-20 hours doing school work when I'm not in class. I spend thousands of dollars out of my pocket on university classes to meet state regulations. These classes are generally 6-8 hours each per week fo about 6 weeks. For many people, this adds up to an additional 40 hour week for each class they take, not to mention the hours that it takes to complete classwork outside of class. That 1098 hours does not count in-service days before the school year, during the school year, or in the summer. If the average person looks at the big picture, they would possibly come to respect and admire teachers. Imagine your child. Think of their friends. Think of the kids that go to their school that they don't like. Think of the ones that your kids talk about who are "bad kids." Now imagine having a room with 30 of these kids in it. On average, for every great kid, there is one bad kid. It wouldn't take anyone long to realize that the kids in the middle are more likely to find the attitudes and behaviors of the bad kids more appealing...they don't do work or take the time to show respect...it's a much easier life than working hard and using manors. So, if your kids is one of those average kids, I'm sure they are giving their teachers less than their best several times throughout the year. Granted, there are lazy and bad teachers out there who probably don't do all that they can and should do, but don't assign overpaid and underworked to all teachers. We're the ones doing the job that so many others would never want or be able to do.

>If you do the math, you'd find out that being a teacher doesn't pay as well as being a day care provider who is expected do little more than make sure kids don't die.< Yeah, right, and they only get paid when they lose a tooth and put it under their pillow, also. We have teachers retiring who make $70,000+ a year. The average salary and benefits cost for Michigan teachers is $73,917 per year, according to the NEA and the Census Bureau, as reported in Reason magazine. That is the highers in the nation – more than California, New York, Illinois, anywhere. Actually, they could be paid $200,000 a year and I would not care - if they were part of a system where resources were allocated on the basis of merit by free market processes, i.e., school choice. Given that the education is an unaccountable monopoly maintained by the political muscle of its employees' trade union, and that it delivers mediocre performance AT BEST, however, I do care, however, and resent the heck out of it.

Michigan Needs Qualified Teachers not babysitters! When I checked last our graduation rates appears we are teaching kids!

We are not reporting the data less than 50% graduated from my HS in Oakland County. Whats going on here? Oakland County is a very weathly county where did that Ruth Johnson go anyway?

So now, what will these illiterate kids do for a living?

Do you really think the rest of the workforce actually has the luxury of 40-hour work weeks? They don’t and they don’t get the summers off. Many don’t have health insurance benefits. They don’t have tenure either. Try admiring and respecting parents that have to work long hours to pay for doctor visits that aren’t covered by insurance. As for those bad kids – perhaps their needs aren’t being met at school and that is why they are acting out. Ask you special education evaluators what they know about behaviors related to learning disabilities before you condemn them as bad kids. Special education teachers don’t tell the general education teachers all there is to know. Ask yourself why there are so many kids with behavioral problems – your estimate is 50%. Besides the idea that half of all parents are bad, can you come up with any other reasons?

QUOTE: Then the outcry will be that the students are in school too long during the day (longer days because we can only go September to May). Ban that. ------------------- No, it's politicians think even that's not long enough of a school day. If educrats (especially the NEA) get their way, children will be locked inside prison school buildings 24/7/365/100!

This was previously posted... "As for those bad kids – perhaps their needs aren’t being met at school and that is why they are acting out." Insert whining voice here - meeting their needs? Since when are teachers supposed to run their classrooms at the whims of every child's every need? Parents are spouting this garbage... and you kow what? Some of it comes from the parents who wake their kids up 15 minutes before they hustle them into the car, barely dressed, teeth not brushed, face not washed, hair not combed, unfed, and toss them out at the school's front door, without their lunches, homework or any idea of who will pick them up after school...whining voice off now. Reality check, folks... three out of five school days my 2nd grade class starts late because I have to calm an upset child, feed kids breakfast (out of my pocket), supply baby wipes to wash faces (out of my pocket), send kids to the office to call home for lunches - and often later in the morning, pull things out of the closet stash I keep to make them up a lunch (out of my pocket)... let's not mention the times in the afternoon I have to let a child sleep in the carpeted Reading Corner because they just cannot stay awake and are crying. Now, tell me that those parents are doing THEIR jobs. Tell me I'm overpaid and underworked - you need to sit in my parking lot and see when I arrive and leave school... my average day is 9 hours just in the building... watch me come home, throw together a meal and spend 2-3 hours grading, planning, etc. Let's not even talk about the fact that I take online graduate classes that keep me on the computer for an average of 2 hours a night, and sometimes 12-16 hours on the weekends... forcing me to remove myself from my family life and anything social or "fun"... Want my job? Sorry to sound so bitter... I love my job - love watching kids learn to function independently, learn new skills, become aware of a wider world... I'm sick of getting slammed for busting myself every day... and no, I don't work in a public school, I don't belong to the unions, and I don't see retiring on $70K in my future. I've been following this bill because I feel we need to start after Labor Day for one reason only... with no A/C (like most of our schools), the kids are suffering in 90 - 100 degree classrooms and let me tell you, there is NO learning going on when they are so physically miserable. They may as well be home. Besides, like most early elementary school teachers I've talked to, not only here in MI but all across the country, we feel the school day is too long already for the grades under 3rd... but that's antoher issue...

hate to bust your bubble but the unions oppose this legislation, not support it. they're working members over hard on it because they want it to be a CBA issue.

Rep. Hoogendyk, having reserved the right to explain his protest against the passage of the bill, made the following statement: "Mr. Speaker and members of the House: While I support the concept of starting school after Labor Day as it will help tourism in Michigan, in this case, I would prefer to allow individual districts to make that decision. Local control is best in this situation."

Rep. Zelenko, having reserved the right to explain her protest against the passage of the bill, made the following statement: "Mr. Speaker and members of the House: Although I have in the past supported the concept of school starting after Labor Day, I voted 'No' on HB 4803 today because last spring the Legislature (in our infinite wisdom) changed the testing time frames for MEAP from Spring to Fall. If we force schools to start after Labor Day, we in turn cause problems with teachers not having enough instructional time to prepare students for the October MEAP tests."

Senator Scott, under her constitutional right of protest (Art. 4, Sec. 18), protested against the passage of House Bill No.4803 and moved that the statement she made during the discussion of the bill be printed as her reasons for voting "no." The motion prevailed. Senator Scott's statement is as follows: I've heard more on this, as the Senator who preceded me said, for us to think about it. Well, I have thought about it and I think she is right. Just this morning, I received several e-mails from my school districts and they have indicated some of the things that I had heard earlier. They have confirmed that a lot of the athletic things start early. This would be a hardship on these schools. This way if there is local control, then everyone has to make that decision for themselves for what's going to be best for their school districts. I would hope that we would look at that. You know what happens when we take local controls away; we do know in Detroit what happens. I would certainly ask us not to support this at this time. I don't think it will be the best for our school district and our local control communities.

Senator Switalski asked and was granted unanimous consent to make a statement and moved that the statement be printed in the Journal. The motion prevailed. Senator Switalski's statement is as follows: This is a very tough issue to decide. It is hard to balance local control on the one hand with tradition on the other. But, for me, it is not about economic development. It is not about day care. It is about kids getting a vacation--kids getting a chance to grow over the summer, recreate, and re-create themselves. By coincidence, our colleagues are here from Britain and they have a much shorter summer vacation over there--about six weeks or so. I think they'd be the first to admit it's because they have lousy summer weather. But, for me, a post-Labor Day vote is a vote for kids.

I work at an elementry school (not as a teacher) and I see first hand how much time these teachers supposedly put in extra. HA! They get six preptimes of 45 minutes a week in their 7 hour day, and believe me if something interrupts their preptime, such as an assembly (or heaven forbid a field trip to the zoo of their own planning)they connive every which way to change their schedule so they still get their 45 minutes. And if it's a nice day and the sun is shining... yep you got it, outside on the playground, not just for a little 15 minute break, for hours.They have parapro help for grading papers, xeroxing,ect. And many have student teachers that teach for them. I would be hard pressed to say how many minutes of instuctional time these teachers actually teach in a day but it's not many.

Teaching is like an iceberg. Instructional time in the classroom is only a part of the total task. Planning, lesson preparation, grading, student-parent conferences, and yes, student teacher and para-pro supervision, guidance and evaluation and even supervising kids on the playground, upgrading their knowledge and skills through professional development studies, and activities of the like all account for a huge chunk of what real teachers do in real teaching jobs. It’s not all visible, but it surely is important and very real. Only the world’s dunces think it isn’t. Your rant about underworked teachers sounds like a classic case of job envy, of the sort all too often held by nudnik drones who are used to punching the clock, putting in their time doing whatever lightweight minimum-responsibility, no-thinking tasks they have to do, and then punching out and going home to their TV and six pack or whatever else they do to diddle away their off time. The dummies think everybody has it better than they do. If you’re a school employee with so much time on your hands while you’re punched in that you can spend it observing and commenting on “lazy” or “underworked” teachers, then you almost certainly are cheating the public out of your wages.

If that were the case, teachers would not have to negotiate a raise or to keep their insurance...it would just be handed over on a silver platter! There is too much politics in education today that drives the world of children learning. Just like now schools are now at the mercy of tourism. What is that about????? Granholm didn't even leave it up to the local districts---it's obvious that politics is the leader in education, not the teachers.

Obviously you have never taken the time to find out what teachers do. That 1098 hours is just the time spent in the classroom with students. What about all the prep time that teachers do before classes? Or how about the time after school when they have to prepare for the next day or correct assignments? Oh and don't forget the graduate courses that are now mandated to further their own education. I bet in your own occupation any time that YOU spend on performing YOUR tasks is ll compemsated by being "on the clock."

personally, i'm for school all year round. several weeks of school, then 1 or 2 weeks "vacation" or however it works. granted, i havent even started my student teaching yet and have yet to experience "the real world of teaching". however, even after reading about bills and peoples comments (good & bad) i still want to be a teacher. afterall, who taught you to read and write? without that educational influence, you wouldnt be able to read bills & post comments...

If this law bans the start of school before Labor Day, why did schoools start on the 28th of August?

Public Schools are the biggest racket going. The teachers don't work anywhere near the hours that the rest of us do, they complain about their pay, but if you broke their annual salary down by how many hours they actually earn that pay, they are not sufering. I know so many teachers who went into the profession to have lots of vacation time, and summers off. If the rest of us only worked nine months a year, part time at that, where would this world be?

Public Schools are the biggest racket going. The teachers don't work anywhere near the hours that the rest of us do, they complain about their pay, but if you broke their annual salary down by how many hours they actually earn that pay, they are not sufering. I know so many teachers who went into the profession to have lots of vacation time, and summers off. If the rest of us only worked nine months a year, part time at that, where would this world be?

objected to this bill before it was passed into law the bill was pushed by the business community and supported by many parents of school age children many public schools in my part of michigan called their teaching staffs back to work before labor day this year for professional development and planning sessions. while the kids have been playing on vacation with hteir parents the teachers have been working.

Several districts started before Labor Day because they still had valid contracts with their staff when this silly law went into effect. Those districts must honor their contracts thus the pre-Labor Day start.

It is evident from your post that you have no clue what teachers really do. I routinely arrive at school around 7:00 (and I am not the 1st one there -- one teacher arrives every day at 6:30) and do not leave until around 4:00. If I have a meeting, I'm there later. Another teacher I know arrives around 8 and routinely leaves around 7 when the custodians make her leave. After I get home, I'm back working on paperwork from about 8 until 11. You gripe because school is not in session during the summer and imply that teachers do nothing during that time. Want to know what most teachers do during the summer? We attend mandatory college classes, work on projects we bring home with us, find and read current educational research, attend educational conferences, find, buy and/or make things for our classroom. Guess what I'm doing over the Labor Day weekend? Working on a big box of projects that I brought home from my classroom. I worked from 8 pm until 1 am last night. I'm willing to bet that, like many people who criticize teachers' hours, when you clock out at the end of the work day, you are done working for the day. So which of us sounds underworked to you? Your next problem is that you claim teachers are overpaid. Come into my or another teacher's classroom, see what we do for your children, and then ask yourself if you can honestly make that statement again. Here are just a few examples, above and beyond instruction, of what teachers do for children. 1) One little boy at my school was routinely coming to school without socks and underwear because his mother wouldn't wash them. His teacher went out and purchased him socks and underwear to be kept at school for him. Additionally, she washed them at her own house. We, as a staff, contribute to and maintain a clothes closet to clothe kids who need something to wear. 2)Several children at our school need glasses but their parents can't afford them. The teachers use a portion of our union dues to maintain a fund to pay for the glasses so no child has to go without. 3)Many of our children come to school hungry. Many of our staff provide these children something to eat out of their own pocket. These are only a couple of the things that teachers routinely do for your children in addition to teaching them what they need to know. Perhaps you think these things have no value. I think they do. Consider this -- our children are precious and valuable (I believe this, perhaps you don't). Don't you want to attract the best possible personnel to work with them? Whether you like it or not, people are attracted to a job with better salaries and benefits. There seems to be a section of the population that has the mindset that teachers are somehow wrong for wanting to make a decent living. Don't you want to make a decent living? Is it wrong for you to want to live in a nice house, have a decent car and make a living wage? Of course not, and it's not wrong for teachers to want the same. I have 3 college degrees in addition to other special training and over 10 years of experience. Should I be making minimum wage? Get real!

I am a student in Indiana, and I strongly wish that the Governer of Indiana would pass a law just like this one. You see, This school year, I start school August 14, thats right, August 14, have a two-week Christmas Break, and end school on May 22. I know that in Wisconsin, they start after Labor Day, have a one-week Christmas Vacation, and then get out June Seventh. Here in Indiana, I run Cross Country, so we start training on August First, and we run a 3k and do drills at 3-5 in the afternoon. First of all, August is the hottest part of the year, and to be in school is completely wrong. But then to be forced to be running in the hottest part of the day, let alone year?!? It isn't even pool or beach weather until mid-June! Also, summer doesn't even start until mid-June. So we are in school in the hottest part of the summer. I believe that this is completely wrong and unfair to the students of Indiana, and I believe that Indiana should pass the same law that the good people of Michigan have already passed.