Economy

Re: 2012 House Bill 5517 (Repeal barber licensure mandate )

KEVDOG — Tue, 22 Jan 2013 04:59:41 GMT

I went to barber college and got my Michigan Barber license in 2010. I guess, if this goes thru, I could be one of the last of a breed. Been barbering off and on since then, as well as other opportunities as have come up(I'm also a computer tech and have machinist training, and about to get my CDL). Naturally, I would like to see the barber profession remain licensed to preserve my investment and the Barber shops, standards and tradition. One side effect of deregulating barbering that people may not realize, is the probable loss of all the Barber schools in Michigan(I think there are four remaining), as they are also licensed, and inspected under the barbering law. No more barbers, no more need for the schools. Another ponder item is, while barbers are on the dereg block, cosmetologists and the beauty shops and chain hair cutters are not targeted for this also. Only the Barbers, and barber schools. Why is this? Why only the Barber Shops? Why not dereg the beauty shops as well? It would make sense to simplify and get get rid of all of it, all of the beauty shop license fees and beauty schools and training and licenses too, right? That's not happening. My take on it, is not to eliminate or close the existing barber shops, but to fold everybody under the large and powerful cosmetology industry and training and license system, and make everybody subject to those training requirements and fees. Prospective barbers would still have to pay to go to school, only beauty school, and be licensed and pay all the fees as a cosmotologist to cut hair legally anyway. Existing barbers and shops come renu time would still pay fees for individual and shop licenses, only they would be beauty and cosmotology licenses. I think the push behind this is probably corporate. The hair cuttery chains and clips places I believe would benefit, as they in some cases try to pass themselves off as barber shops staffed with barbers, even complete with the barber pole, when they are not. Nothing better than to use all that money and influence to legislate the competition and restrictions away. Am I in any way saying cosmetologists can't cut men's hair? No, I've seen and been to some great ones and not so good ones over the years. I've also had great and terrible barbers over the years. Can't say I'm the best barber yet myself, still learning a lot. Is there a lot of kitchen and basement cutting going on unlicensed, sure there is. Kind of reminds me of prohibition. When I was in school, many of the students where highly skilled longtime kitchen, garage and basement cutters who went to the school to get the license, so they could then legally work in a shop or open a legal shop of their own with their existing customers. Does all this matter to the average customer at large? Probably not. All they want is a good haircut, whoever does it where.

Re: 2012 House Bill 5517 (Repeal barber licensure mandate )

lgaynor — Tue, 04 Sep 2012 17:46:03 GMT

Michigan is already behind other progressive states, most notably Ohio, in the fact that it does not require at least 20 hours per year of continuing education to maintain a license for barber, cosmetology and manicuring. The fact that Michigan is contemplating eliminating the licensing requirements for barbers is a dramatic departure of the pro-business environment Gov. Synder is creating and will undo generations of efforts on behalf of the barber industry to maintain standards and trust the public has had getting haircuts, shaves and other services. This bill needs to be postponed indefinitely.

Re: 2012 House Bill 5517 (Repeal barber licensure mandate )

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Re: 2012 House Bill 5517 (Repeal barber licensure mandate )

egorhythmia — Sun, 24 Jun 2012 15:35:14 GMT

I'm sure there are a lot of people both for and against this idea. Facial care is becoming more and more an interesting topic and money is being made here as well. Some offer great services like Facial Care by SIA and others less motivating packages but everybody wants a piece of the pie.

Re: 2012 House Bill 5517 (Repeal barber licensure mandate )

Robnav — Mon, 07 May 2012 21:53:27 GMT

Why not also deregulate plumbers, electricians, builders, lawyers, teachers, etc so I can easily go into business without the hassle of actually learning how do do the job right? I'll call my new business Jack Of All Trades Inc. LOL! Seriously, I think this shows how little our legislature have to do when they desire to deregulate everything so they can restart the regulation cycle all over again. How soon before we see a bill to re-require helmets for motorcyclists?... Think about it. Focus on balancing the budget.

PS: I am not a barber. I am a consumer who regularly obtains the service of a local barber. I would prefer to not learn the hard-way whether or not my barber was properly trained. I do agree that 2000 hours may be excessive, but there is a reason we regulate food service, barber/hair service, and most services which involve a level of social safety/hygiene... especially in the current age of hep-c, AIDS, and any other diseases.

Re: 2012 House Bill 5517 (Repeal barber licensure mandate )

BarberBill — Sat, 05 May 2012 00:06:32 GMT

Repealing this mandate should be joined by repealing Lawyer licensure mandate.

Re: 2012 House Bill 5517 (Repeal barber licensure mandate )

MainRobin — Fri, 27 Apr 2012 04:12:15 GMT

I enjoy barbering and I have tremendous respect for the relationships that I have built with my customers. But it's insane to compare barbering to the services provided by doctors and lawyers. How many lives did you save barbering??? I would not put the barbering profession in the category of a two year old, but I did give myself my first haircut at about the age of 12. I don't think I could have represented myself in court as a lawyer at age 12. Sanitation primarily consists of common sense. Did it take you 2,000 hours to figure out how to clean your clippers, shears, and razors?? How many times was your barbershop inspected during the 14 years that you owned it?? I would guess, not more than twice. There is no need for you to be ashamed roz1234, we are not associates. The only thing we have in common is this impractical licensing mandate. And I will continue to reserve my right to this opinion and share my experiences sense I work just as hard as any other barber.

Re: 2012 House Bill 5517 (Repeal barber licensure mandate )

changeagent — Thu, 26 Apr 2012 13:55:14 GMT

roz1234:
What is a doctor without his license, or a lawyer without his. " NOTHING TO THE PUBLIC."

Well, I'm part of the public and I could not care less whether my barber has a license from the government. All I care about is whether or not he is a good barber. I've been to plenty of bad barbers in my lifetime and they all had licenses from the government. Frankly, this lawmaker is doing you a favor.

Re: 2012 House Bill 5517 (Repeal barber licensure mandate )

roz1234 — Thu, 26 Apr 2012 03:59:35 GMT

Being a barber for 39 years and also a 3rd generation barber, I am sickened by state representative from Rochester, MI proposal Bill 5517 to eliminate baber license and sanitation laws. I can only say that obviously you never recieved a great haricut or service from a profession license barber as myself. I studied for 2000 hrs and a 2 year appenticeship; plus many hundreds of subsequent hours to stay updated with the lastest tends and techniques throughout these years. I am a national mens hairstyling champion and have many awards to prove my expertise.. I've owned a salon for 14 years and take pride in training my fellow stylist to value their hard work in this profession.

Taking this away from me is like taking a doctors license to practice medicine. What is a doctor without his license, or a lawyer without his. " NOTHING TO THE PUBLIC." You are putting my profession in the catagory of a a two year old with a pair of shears in his or her hands, not ot mention the sanitation laws. Lets make everything all nice and dirty now with no checks and balances.. Just like the US government.. I am pretty much a republican. But am ashamed to have any association with the likes of you and your insensitivity to a hardworking skilled tradeswomen and her life's long profession which by the way has supported my family for all these years.

Re: 2012 House Bill 5517 (Repeal barber licensure mandate )

MainRobin — Sun, 22 Apr 2012 23:27:39 GMT

I had a very difficult time finding any logic or fact in your argument. But I will try to respond the best way that I can. What is your definition of a ‘true professional barber’? Where in my statement did you find my definition of a barber? I’ve never heard of ‘Barber-Stylist Training.’ Can you please define it according to Michigan law and give me an example of this new profession? Yes, licensed barbers are allowed to give straight razor shaves, perms, and SOME chemical treatments. However, in my opinion, most intelligent customers will decline to pay $25 just for a bald head and facial shave. None of the barbers where I work offer facial shaves with a razor, electric clippers only. Razor shaves are simply outdated and not worth the trouble or hassle. Frankly, these services should be excluded from barbering and given separate licensing requirements. And, yes I do make my living off of barbering and have done so since the age of 19 when I received my license. My age is 37 now. I started cutting hair in high school at age 14 before becoming licensed. I had so many customers, that my father, who also happens to be a barber, cancelled my weekly allowance and lunch money. I made my money in high school cutting hair in kitchens, bathrooms, balconies, basements, and anywhere else that had an outlet and a person willing to pay me. Is it really your position that everyone who receives a haircut goes to a barber shop with licensed barbers 100% of the time…REALLY??? What planet is this??? I won’t respond to the topic of therapy simply because it is irrelevant to House Bill 5517(BARBERS). The rest of your statement was about politics so I will let you have that debate with someone cares.

Re: 2012 House Bill 5517 (Repeal barber licensure mandate )

j_onyx12 — Sat, 21 Apr 2012 23:47:34 GMT

Why barbers? Of all the regulated professions why is there sudden focus on barber training and licensing? I find it very hard to believe you really are a barber and if you are that you earn your living from it. Are you certain you are not a franchise owner of a Fantastic Sam's or similar? Over 80% are owned by persons who are not barbers and these shops have difficulty obtaining and keeping licensed barbers in Michigan. Let's clear one thing up. You mentioned "fallacy" as if you understand logic and argue as if people need correction from you in their thinking. There is much more to logic that the label "fallacy". You commit several basic logical errors in your argument. First is the fallacy of the strawman. You shrink barbering into a tiny activity so you may then knock it over, the strawman argument. As any true professional barber knows, there is much more to being a barber than the hillbilly definition you use. A barber is not a hair cutter. I am not a barber or involved in the hair care industry in anyway. I have received barber services for 50 years and I am an observant person who tries to be well informed. Barbers I know are no longer barbers and they did not attend a barber school. The training you describe is not barber training; It is barber-stylist training. Barber-stylists are taught how to use a straight razor, perform hair perms and chemical treatments. Stylists I know shave the entire heads of some of their customers. Any of those customers will tell you there is no way anyone with any intelligence wants anyone but a licensed barber to shave his head. Another strawman is focusing on ringworm, a most minor concern today pertaining to public safety related to hair care. Blood is much more serious and a real public health concern. We do not want to assume that people giving hair cuts know how to handle situations in which even minor bleeding is involved. HIV and Hepetitus are very real concerns! I do not know anyone who is cutting their own hair or getting a neighbor to do it because there is a shortage of barbers or barbershops. Most barber-stylist customers frequent the modern salon or unisex shop where there are cosmotologists and barber-stylists. For example, why not focus on deregulating therapy instead? 75% of therapy delivered to family and individuals is delivered today by MSW degreed Social Workers whose training is limited to a basic Carl Rogers harmless, if ineffective, approach and other than Psychiatry, the licensed practitioners are schooled in a discipline that lacks rational basis, is not science based. Tightly conducted research has been unable to show talk therapy is effective and that pastoral counsellors are often more helpful, suggesting a decent, experienced, caring person is more valuable than an academically schooled "therapist". They are much cheaper as well, since they are vounteers. Given the serious expense of regulated therapists, it would be a real public service to reconsider this regulation. I smell narrow vested interest behind this entire move to deregulate barbers. They are not hair cutters. They are professional barber-stylists. If I wanted my hair cut by a person with a wood bowl and unsanitized clippers I'd go get my hair cut and styled in the hills of rural Kentucky. I do not know which is the greater menace to America. The left wing ideological politicians or the ones on the right. Ideology is a recipe approach to life. We should consider any ideology a disease, a disease as vicious and idiotic as the dogma of the Medieval Church & as evil as Mao's China, Stalin's Russia, & the Islamic terrorists we currently battle abroad. This bill against licensed barbers and licensed barbershops is an excellent example of ideological feeble mindness.

Re: 2012 House Bill 5517 (Repeal barber licensure mandate )

MainRobin — Sat, 21 Apr 2012 02:13:21 GMT

-The definition of fallacy is a mistaken belief or a failure in reasoning that renders an argument invalid. - House Bill 5517 addresses barber licenses, not cosmetology licenses. References to services rendered by a cosmetologist are irrelevant and invalid to this topic of discussion. Also, barbers are not licensed to perform nail services. The only skin service barbers are licensed to perform is a facial. A facial is a skin treatment performed on a person’s face consisting of a massage with the application of a cosmetic cream. As a barber student, I was required to perform one facial per month on a customer seeking services at the barber school or on another student that was enrolled at the school. However, since the demand for facials was nonexistent from customers, I performed all required facials on other students. In 19 years as a practicing professional barber, I have not performed this service once and would refuse to do so simply because it is not worth my time or the cost of supplies. I honestly can’t remember the massage pattern to perform the service. Plus, no customer has requested this service thus far, and I suspect that the vast majority of the population does not know that barbers perform this service at all. Again, keep in mind that a fallacy is a mistaken belief or an invalid argument. The statement, “A large percentage of hair services nowadays are chemical services,” is misleading especially if you are including services rendered by a licensed cosmetologist whom are not relevant to the topic of barbers. As a practicing barber, I would vehemently disagree with this statement. In the hair salon where I work, there are cosmetologists present. All chemical services here are performed solely by the cosmetologists by preference of customers. The barbers independently prefer not offer the service. Not sure about Dr. Oz, but customers that have ringworm, normally have it before they come to the barbershop for services. This is something typically found on a child. However, catching ringworm at a barber is possible but not likely. A kid is more likely to catch ringworm playing in a sandbox. Also, the statement saying that, “you are NOT required to go to a barbering or cosmetology school to get licensed in the state of Michigan,” is not true and is misleading. According to Michigan Department of Labor & Economic Growth Barbering Law Book, section 339.1108(1)(c), A license to practice as a barber shall be issued to an individual who demonstrates satisfactory completion of not less than a 2,000 hour course of study at a licensed barber college. (p. 23) And finally, the only injustice to the public is the inadequate supply of barbers that this strenuous requirement causes. Having a low supply of barbers causes the public to seek unlicensed alternative services. Many people cut their own hair and their children’s hair since hair clippers are available at Walgreens.

Re: 2012 House Bill 5517 (Repeal barber licensure mandate )

changeagent — Fri, 20 Apr 2012 15:16:00 GMT

ecl1989:
The fallacy of your argument is that all barbers and cosmetologists do is cut hair.

All of these issues could be addressed through a private industry certification process like a membership in a cosmetology association. There are two traditional barbers in my small town. I choose not to go to one of them because his shop is filthy. Other people don't seem to mind. I think it should be up to individuals to make their own choices. Caveat emptor.

Re: 2012 House Bill 5517 (Repeal barber licensure mandate )

ecl1989 — Fri, 20 Apr 2012 13:41:32 GMT

The fallacy of your argument is that all barbers and cosmetologists do is cut hair. If that were the case, I would readily agree with you, but it's not. Barbers and Cosmetologists are licensed to perform hair, skin and nail services. A large percentage of hair services nowadays are chemical services, such as coloring and chemically altering the disulfide bonds of the hair to give it a new texture pattern (perms and relaxers). These products, when used improperly, could EASILY burn someone's scalp or damage their hair irreparably even to the point where it could break off at the root. The idea that you would allow someone without any training to put potentially dangerous chemicals on your head is frightening. It seems that your quarrel is more with the poor education that you got personally. I have nothing but positive things to say about my vocational training; I cannot recall a single day that we weren't learning a new technique or perfecting ones we learned. I went to a fairly well-known national chain of cosmetology schools. At my school we did hair cutting 3 times: 5 days of initial training on basic cuts and cutting techniques, 4 days on men's cutting and clipper cutting, and 4 days on razor cutting and texturizing as well as other texturizing techniques for different types of hair textures and density. All in all that makes 13 days of instruction. I don't believe that that is excessive to any extent. Like I said, hair cutting is a very small facet of what you learn in school. And as far as the spread of disease goes, I actually know multiple people who have gotten nail fungi from improperly sanitized instruments. Actually just yesterday on the Dr. Oz show they were talking about salon sanitation and the spread of ringworm because of improper sanitation. Let's not forget that you are NOT required to go to a barbering or cosmetology school to get licensed in the state of Michigan, you have the option to apprentice under a licensed stylist in place of schooling. These rules and regulations that govern our profession have been instated to both ensure that we are properly trained and to protect the general public from harm. Repealing them would be doing an injustice to the public who trust that salons are equipped with people who know what they are doing.

Re: 2012 House Bill 5517 (Repeal barber licensure mandate )

MainRobin — Fri, 20 Apr 2012 03:04:24 GMT

I've been licensed for 19 years and my honest opinion is that 2000 hours of barber training is an absolute joke. While in school many students, including myself, complained about covering the same material 4 times over the year. Once should be enough. That would a least cut the time to 500 hours or approximately 3 months. We spent a lot of this excess time sleeping in our barber chairs and goofing off. This time could be spent doing something constructive instead. Students that had little prior experience cutting hair where hardly much better when they left. In reality, many unlicensed barbers serve the public in their home and illegally in shops since the cost to the State for inspecting barbers shops annually is too high. Besides, when was the last time you heard of a disease outbreak caused by a barber? Due you recall any lawsuits against a barber for malpractice? Off course not... PASS THIS BILL PLEASE! It's better for the Michigan economy if more people got their haircut at the barbershop because their favorite barber doesn't have to cut hair in their kitchen or basement anymore. Let the Past stay in the Past. We need to be smart with how we use our time in the future.