Local Issues and Governments

Re: 2009 House Bill 4341 (Prohibit allowing restaurant or private workplace smoking )

catalinoss — Thu, 09 Jun 2011 11:53:15 GMT

I am not very sure if the majority of Michigan citizens want this to pass this idea. I am very circumspect at this chapter. cazare costinesti 2011

Re: 2009 House Bill 4341 (Prohibit allowing restaurant or private workplace smoking )

mapmanjohn — Wed, 20 May 2009 16:48:53 GMT

The majority of Michigan citizens want this to pass.

Re: 2009 House Bill 4341 (Prohibit allowing restaurant or private workplace smoking )

bugman — Tue, 24 Mar 2009 14:49:59 GMT

how does banning smoking in bars promote the general welfare? a law that only effects a small group is bad law.

Re: 2009 House Bill 4341 (Prohibit allowing restaurant or private workplace smoking )

changeagent — Tue, 24 Mar 2009 14:46:07 GMT

So gypsy, by your understanding of the proper role of government promoting general welfare means they can do whatever "they" think is a good idea. I can hardly wait until they decide it is in the interest of our "general welfare" that we all have computer chips inserted in our butts that can monitor our activities so we can be protected at all times.

Re: 2009 House Bill 4341 (Prohibit allowing restaurant or private workplace smoking )

bugman — Tue, 24 Mar 2009 14:45:02 GMT

that very thing has been suggested hundreds of times. all to no avail. they do not wish to be in "A" non-smoking bar. they wish all bars to be non-smoking. once again, totalitarianism gets a pass.

Re: 2009 House Bill 4341 (Prohibit allowing restaurant or private workplace smoking )

changeagent — Tue, 24 Mar 2009 14:40:22 GMT

If I own a bar and continue to let people smoke after the government has made a law against it they will try to stop me. First they will try to fine me. I won't pay. Then they will put the fines on my property taxes. I still won't pay. Then they will try to evict me from my property and I will resist. Then they will come with armed police officers and if I resist and am armed (as I am) they will shoot me. That is how it works and how a no smoking ban is enforced at gunpoint. Now gypsy you tell me how I am wrong.

Now gypsy you tell me how I am wrong. That is how all of your damn laws work everytime you put one of your restrictions on how other people choose to live. Why don't you open your own bar and make it no smoking? I may even come in and have a drink.

Re: 2009 House Bill 4341 (Prohibit allowing restaurant or private workplace smoking )

bugman — Tue, 24 Mar 2009 14:24:59 GMT

do you need the government to tell you that smoking is bad? or do you just need the government to force smokers to stop smoking where you choose to drink?

Re: 2009 House Bill 4341 (Prohibit allowing restaurant or private workplace smoking )

gypsy — Tue, 24 Mar 2009 13:41:54 GMT

The proper role of government is to promote the general welfare.

Re: 2009 House Bill 4341 (Prohibit allowing restaurant or private workplace smoking )

bugman — Tue, 24 Mar 2009 05:57:10 GMT

so you believe that the proper role of government is to keep you personally from coming to harm?

where is your responsibility in all this?

Re: 2009 House Bill 4341 (Prohibit allowing restaurant or private workplace smoking )

gypsy — Tue, 24 Mar 2009 01:32:36 GMT

changeagent:
Life is inherently risky

Yes, it is. That's why we take precautions to lessen the risk.

changeagent:
Why is it so difficult to understand the difference between free choice and coercion?

I don't find it difficult at all. I can choose to smoke, or not. You can choose to smoke, or not. Free choice. I can't choose to harm you. If I do, I get punished by the state. If you choose to harm me, you get punished by the state. Coercion.

Re: 2009 House Bill 4341 (Prohibit allowing restaurant or private workplace smoking )

gypsy — Tue, 24 Mar 2009 01:21:06 GMT

I think you may be a little extreme in your conclusion that a smoking ban in restaurants and workplaces will be enforced at gunpoint.

Re: 2009 House Bill 4341 (Prohibit allowing restaurant or private workplace smoking )

bugman — Mon, 23 Mar 2009 22:36:47 GMT

you advocate writing a law. laws are enforced by people with guns. it will come to that.

Re: 2009 House Bill 4341 (Prohibit allowing restaurant or private workplace smoking )

changeagent — Mon, 23 Mar 2009 22:32:41 GMT

I disagree, completely, in fact. Your statement is absurd. Customers do not have a "personal right" to do business anywhere! They have free choice. If one were to make a workplace "as safe as it can be made" nothing would ever get produced! There has to be a cost/benefit analysis of everything we do. Life is inherently risky, deal with it!

And, the most absurd of all, "it is in his financial interest to do so". If that is the case, he will do it, and if it is the case and he doesn't do it, he'll go out of business! That's the way it is supposed to work and it will if we can all make free choices.

Why is it so difficult to understand the difference between free choice and coercion?

Re: 2009 House Bill 4341 (Prohibit allowing restaurant or private workplace smoking )

gypsy — Mon, 23 Mar 2009 22:12:22 GMT

changeagent:
And the customers and the employees have a personal right to not do business there and to not work there. This seems so simple to me. Am I going too fast?

The customers and employees have a personal right to do business there and to have there workplace as safe as it can be made. The business owner has a social responsibility to make his restaurant and workplace as safe as he can also. It is in his financial interest to do so.

No, not too fast at all.

Re: 2009 House Bill 4341 (Prohibit allowing restaurant or private workplace smoking )

gypsy — Mon, 23 Mar 2009 22:07:23 GMT

changeagent:
In your greed to have someone elses property serve your needs,

That someone else who owns the property is in the business of serving the customer's needs. If he doesn't want to, he can turn his business into his home and make his own rules. He just can't charge people for his goods and services.

changeagent:
you are prepared to use the force of gunpoint to get what you want

I don't think a smoking ban in restaurants and workplaces will require gunpoint.