Environment and Property Rights

Re: 2009 Senate Bill 45 (Require inspection of “on-site” wastewater treatment systems )

bugman — Tue, 24 Mar 2009 18:19:54 GMT

another case of the legislature attempting to remove and usurp rights. a pattern of abuses.

Re: 2009 Senate Bill 45 (Require inspection of “on-site” wastewater treatment systems )

Vipster — Tue, 24 Mar 2009 16:16:59 GMT

As it is written, this is almost too asinine to comprehend.

I could see only, & I mean ONLY, if there’s “proof” that a system is malfunctioning & causing visible harm to neighboring properties, people & animals should an inspection be “required”. Of course this process of providing “proof” should be limited to a strict protocol, validating the “proof” in the complaint. Secure the permission of the property owner & insure that property rights are honored. Yaaaa Right! A bill like that will never get through congress with such common sense provisions attached to it.

No bones about it: This is a tax….It will reduce Property Rights…….The Bill will be poorly written & wrought with abuses.

Makes the case for a part-time legislature!

Re: 2009 Senate Bill 45 (Require inspection of “on-site” wastewater treatment systems )

shearwater — Mon, 23 Mar 2009 00:42:35 GMT

A gravel bed may seem to be the best location for a septic system. Actually, gravel subsoil that is within less than 38" of the soil surface is not. The reason for this is that the first few holes in the drain field tile receive thye bulk of the infiltratyion and form a biomat which then causes the septic system to back up. One correction for this is apresure dosing systems which assures that every hole in the septic drain tile receive an approximately equal amount of septic effluent. If the infiltration rate is greater than 1.2 gallons per square foot per day, an elevated sand mound will be required or a shallow trench pressure dosing system. An elevated sand mound is about triple the price of a conventional gravity flow system but is stll less expensive that a public sewer.

Re: 2009 Senate Bill 45 (Require inspection of “on-site” wastewater treatment systems )

truckingal — Tue, 17 Mar 2009 16:12:08 GMT

Shearwater! I SO MUCH appreciate your publishing that schedule-that's something I've never been able to get my hands on! The problem is, most septic pumpers either give you NO idea-or tell you that you need pumping EVERY year! Thats' self-perpetuating repeat business. A properly-maintained septic and drain field system should last MANY,MANY years with regular household use! Likely as long if not longer than the the treatment plant before the treatment plant needs a major and expensive upgrade-which you will pay for! Here in southern Jackson county, we sit on one of the largest gravel beds in the state-a perfect place for a septic system. There are no sewer systems within 15 miles-and our lakes, regardless of the propaganda, are CLEAN! We're still cleaning up the residues of Henry Ford's small local plants that left here in the 30's- 40's-some of which will never be cleaned up, simply silted over. If you disturb the silt, you find heavy metals-which didnt come from a septic system or a farm! That is not the fault of our septic tanks.

This whole 'clean water' propaganda has taken on the trappings of a religion: if the 'planners' and federal and state 'control freaks' get their way, water will become the perview of the UN and never the right of the people. It's an end run around property rights-the clear purpose in most areas is to move people away from lakefront property because it will soon become the right only of the federal government to control all water. Now, the focus isnt just lakefronts and rivers, it's "watersheds"-EVERY BIT OF LAND IS A WATERSHED!! This is all being done under the guise of 'clean water'. I dont know of anyone who is against clean water, but people need to realize they've been hookeyboo'd on the conditions of water in Michigan. Our surface and ground water, generally, is cleaner here than in most of the world and getting better all the time as we clean up industrial pollution.The average homeowner was never the problem and when he was, his specific-point pollution footprint was extremely small and usually self-remediating. However, if people weren't controlled by the fear of polluted water and convinced they were the cause of it, they'd never fight to get expensive sewer systems that threatened their very rights to be able to own property they had bought and paid for.Forced sewer installation and the attendant leins penalize the elderly, those on fixed incomes and the lower incomes. Having a 'Septic Tank Czar'is unnecessary-having regular inspections is also unnecessary. All you need is an available schedule of recommended maintenance.These are just ways to get money from people who arent already paying a huge sewer bill! Also, really investigate the data on the condition of our water and it's improvements over the last thirty years before you buy into this whole scheme-we're being taxed senseless by propaganda with an ulterior motive.

Re: 2009 Senate Bill 45 (Require inspection of “on-site” wastewater treatment systems )

philwestland — Tue, 17 Mar 2009 10:40:30 GMT

Anything that raises taxes in this economy needs to be defeated. If our "elected" officials cannot work within a budget, they need to be replaced by someone who can

Re: 2009 Senate Bill 45 (Require inspection of “on-site” wastewater treatment systems )

shearwater — Tue, 17 Mar 2009 10:40:19 GMT

How about licensing septic pumpers to do this inspection since they are the ones who do it routinely and first to know who needs a new system. Pumpers, in order to do this would be trained at workshops around the state and would have to pass a proficiency test on licensing to be a septic pumper. Michigan is quite specific in who they indicate capable of designing and writing specifications for new systems. They should have a state list of licensed soil scientists to do this work since that is they do and have been doing for years in other states. Indiana has a good system that has worked for 30 years. Soil scientists are on a governors list which provides licensing and standards of professional practice that enables control so that people who demonstrate incompetence or lack of professionalism can be culled from the list.

Re: 2009 Senate Bill 45 (Require inspection of “on-site” wastewater treatment systems )

shearwater — Tue, 17 Mar 2009 09:16:03 GMT

Annual septic tank inspections are not needed if people maintain their systems on schedule. The following tank pumping schedule gives the time interval for doing this. This was derived from the Small Flows Journal from West Virginia State University and the Small Flows Clearinghouse which has many useful publications regarding septic systems.

I assume by pro you mean an ARCPACS certified soil scientist.

Formula for Determining Scheduled Maintenance

Pumping Interval in Years = P					P = D x (C/1000)
Residents occupying house = R					R
Capacity of Septic Tank in Gallons = C
Garbage Disposal Factor: 7 if you use a garbage disposal; 10 if you do not

Septic Pumping Interval for 1000 Gallon Septic Tank
Interval		Interval				P=pumpoing interval in years
Years		Years		Residents	Capacity	Disposal	Disposal
Disposal		No Disposal			gal	Yes	No
6	years	9	years	1	1000	7	10
3	years	4	years	2	1000	7	10
1	years	2	years	3	1000	7	10
1	years	2	years	4	1000

Septic Pumping Interval for 1250 Gallon Septic Tank With and Without a Garbage Disposal
Interval		Interval
Years		Years		Residents	Capacity	Disposal	Disposal
Disposal		No Disposal			gal	Yes	No
8	years	12	years	1	1250	7	10
3	years	5	years	2	1250	7	10
2	years	3	years	3	1250	7	10
1	years	2	years	4	1250	7	10
1	years	2	years	5	1250	7	10
0	years	1	years	6	1250	7	10

Septic Pumping Interval for 1500 Gallon Septic Tank With and Without a Garbage Disposal
Interval		Interval
Years		Years		Residents	Capacity	Disposal	Disposal
Disposal		No Disposal			gal	Yes	No
10	years	14	years	1	1500	7	10
4	years	7	years	2	1500	7	10
3	years	4	years	3	1500	7	10
2	years	3	years	4	1500	7	10
1	years	2	years	5	1500	7	10
1	years	2	years	6	1500	7	10

Septic Pumping Interval for 2000 Gallon Septic Tank With and Without a Garbage Disposal
Interval		Interval
Years		Years		Residents	Capacity	Disposal	Disposal
Disposal		No Disposal			gal	Yes	No
13	years	19	years	1	2000	7	10
6	years	9	years	2	2000	7	10
4	years	6	years	3	2000	7	10
3	years	4	years	4	2000	7	10
2	years	3	years	5	2000	7	10
1	years	2	years	6	2000	7	10
1	years	2	years	7	2000	7	10

Septic Pumping Interval for 2500 Gallon Septic Tank With and Without a Garbage Disposal
Interval		Interval
Years		Years		Residents	Capacity	Disposal	Disposal
Disposal		No Disposal			gal	Yes	No
17	years	24	years	1	2500	7	10
8	years	12	years	2	2500	7	10
5	years	7	years	3	2500	7	10
3	years	5	years	4	2500	7	10
3	years	4	years	5	2500	7	10
2	years	3	years	6	2500	7	10
2	years	3	years	7	2500	7	10

Re: 2009 Senate Bill 45 (Require inspection of “on-site” wastewater treatment systems )

shearwater — Tue, 17 Mar 2009 09:07:15 GMT

Formula for Determining Scheduled Maintenance

Pumping Interval in Years = P					P = D x (C/1000)
Residents occupying house = R					R
Capacity of Septic Tank in Gallons = C
Garbage Disposal Factor: 7 if you use a garbage disposal; 10 if you do not

Septic Pumping Interval for 1000 Gallon Septic Tank
Interval		Interval				P=pumpoing interval in years
Years		Years		Residents	Capacity	Disposal	Disposal
Disposal		No Disposal			gal	Yes	No
6	years	9	years	1	1000	7	10
3	years	4	years	2	1000	7	10
1	years	2	years	3	1000	7	10
1	years	2	years	4	1000

Septic Pumping Interval for 1250 Gallon Septic Tank With and Without a Garbage Disposal
Interval		Interval
Years		Years		Residents	Capacity	Disposal	Disposal
Disposal		No Disposal			gal	Yes	No
8	years	12	years	1	1250	7	10
3	years	5	years	2	1250	7	10
2	years	3	years	3	1250	7	10
1	years	2	years	4	1250	7	10
1	years	2	years	5	1250	7	10
0	years	1	years	6	1250	7	10

Septic Pumping Interval for 1500 Gallon Septic Tank With and Without a Garbage Disposal
Interval		Interval
Years		Years		Residents	Capacity	Disposal	Disposal
Disposal		No Disposal			gal	Yes	No
10	years	14	years	1	1500	7	10
4	years	7	years	2	1500	7	10
3	years	4	years	3	1500	7	10
2	years	3	years	4	1500	7	10
1	years	2	years	5	1500	7	10
1	years	2	years	6	1500	7	10

Septic Pumping Interval for 2000 Gallon Septic Tank With and Without a Garbage Disposal
Interval		Interval
Years		Years		Residents	Capacity	Disposal	Disposal
Disposal		No Disposal			gal	Yes	No
13	years	19	years	1	2000	7	10
6	years	9	years	2	2000	7	10
4	years	6	years	3	2000	7	10
3	years	4	years	4	2000	7	10
2	years	3	years	5	2000	7	10
1	years	2	years	6	2000	7	10
1	years	2	years	7	2000	7	10

Septic Pumping Interval for 2500 Gallon Septic Tank With and Without a Garbage Disposal
Interval		Interval
Years		Years		Residents	Capacity	Disposal	Disposal
Disposal		No Disposal			gal	Yes	No
17	years	24	years	1	2500	7	10
8	years	12	years	2	2500	7	10
5	years	7	years	3	2500	7	10
3	years	5	years	4	2500	7	10
3	years	4	years	5	2500	7	10
2	years	3	years	6	2500	7	10
2	years	3	years	7	2500	7	10

Re: 2009 Senate Bill 45 (Require inspection of “on-site” wastewater treatment systems )

IGiveUp — Tue, 17 Mar 2009 02:03:26 GMT

uber-liberal:

how long should a septic system work? one, five, fifteen, twenty five, the life of the house? at what point should a house be put on a sewer system? and, if it is 'for the good of the people', shouldn't the city running the system foot the bill to hook up the citizens? ten grand is a lot of money to dump your stuff into a city system that may, or may not be more efficient in cleaning it up than your septic tank.

My main point is that I don’t and I think that most taxpayers don’t want to pay for policing the septic systems in Michigan when it should be the responsibility of the owner of the septic system. As to how long a septic system last there's too many variables to say all septic systems should function for X number of years. Because soil condition can vary from one house to another house right next door, and the habits of the occupants can increase or decrease the life of a septic system, even the installation can increase or decrease a septic system life, that's why each system has its own life span.

Ten Grand is what I paid because I have 178' of frontage and I paid it over time to the city, it was included in my water bill. Usually cities place a lean on the property based on your frontage which has to be paid when you hookup to the city sewer or sale your house/business whichever comes first. Usually it around $50 +/- a frontage foot (I think I was charged $54 a frontage foot). Also you have the cost for some company to connect you to the city sewer or do it yourself (I think I paid like $1,800). As far as I know most cities do not require a license to make the connection because you have to have a city inspector on site while the connection is made.

An engineered septic field usually starts at around Ten Grand, and I think that most cities require an engineer’s stamp before they will issue a permit among other requirements and/or cost. I also think that the engineer is on the hook for a period of time but not sure how long and to what extent. Also if city sewer is available to you they won’t allow you to repair and/or install a septic system.

Another thing that would help clean up our water systems is to force these so call treatment plants to clean up their act and make previsions for handling the heavy rains we get here in Michigan besides dumping the overflow into our waterways. I think they should tackle the treatment plants & businesses first and then see if anything needs to be done with all the private septic systems. Like I said in my first post; I think this issue needs some attention but we DO NOT need to add tax dollars to address this when it can be addressed with regulation and private companies. This should fall on the property owner NOT THE TAXPAYER.

Re: 2009 Senate Bill 45 (Require inspection of “on-site” wastewater treatment systems )

uber-liberal — Tue, 17 Mar 2009 00:26:22 GMT

how long should a septic system work? one, five, fifteen, twenty five, the life of the house? at what point should a house be put on a sewer system? and, if it is 'for the good of the people', shouldn't the city running the system foot the bill to hook up the citizens? ten grand is a lot of money to dump your stuff into a city system that may, or may not be more efficient in cleaning it up than your septic tank.

Re: 2009 Senate Bill 45 (Require inspection of “on-site” wastewater treatment systems )

IGiveUp — Mon, 16 Mar 2009 22:28:48 GMT

You may be right; maybe even a responsible citizen that would take the steps to insure your septic field is working properly. The only thing I have to say is you are one out of how many thousands of people on septic system. Three of my neighbors are still on septic systems and I know for a fact that at least one need to be connected to the city sewer and their field is only 12 to 15 years old. Most of the companies that pump septic tanks will come out once a day, week, month, year or whenever you call them. These companies know when fields have failed, and they don't care because they make more money pumping them out than they do if you put in a new septic system or hook up to city sewer. After 10 to 15 years most fields start failing, some even sooner; so it’s only right to make people with these systems pay for policing them, not every taxpayer. I'm not on a septic field anymore and I'm sure that I should have connected to the city sewer at least one or two years before I finally bit the bullet and spent the $10,000 to connect. As far as I'm concern if the cost of enforcing people with septic system to take the necessary steps to ensure they don't pollute our water systems is not passed to the people which have these system then it will be just like the auto insurance that I pay on every vehicle I own (even though I can only drive one at a time) just because so many people in Michigan drive without insurance, by the way this part of my insurance cost me more than $800 a year and goes straight to the state of Michigan to cover people who’s injured that’s not insured. I’m not saying and would strongly am against state or local city/county inspectors should be used. These should be private licensed companies just like other private home and/or business inspectors that inspect homes/businesses when they’re sold. Implementing this type of policing system is the only way to put a stop to the knowingly and non-knowingly polluter and really make a difference.

Re: 2009 Senate Bill 45 (Require inspection of “on-site” wastewater treatment systems )

truckingal — Mon, 16 Mar 2009 22:28:13 GMT

It's been standard in most of the state for MANY years that, in order to get a building permit, you have to have a site survey to judge ground permeability and appropriateness for septic system already. The placement of the system is also determined by officials, NOT the property owner. The problem is not that there isnt oversight-it's that they really want to charge everyone an arm and a leg to connect to sewage treatment plants across township lines-sewage treatment plants that already have problems maintaining standards and are always hurting for cash (read that, they want YOUR cash!).

Something I've never been able to figure out: every large sewage treatrment plant has an overflow system into a major creek or river. In times of heavy rains, guess where that untreated sewage goes-in huge quantities? It's the equivalent of thousands of substandard septic tanks and drain fields-which likely arent anywhere near a waterway, due to the original site surveys.Furthermore, these private home systems arent full of heavy metals, pesticides and industrial resedue like the sewage that goes to the treatment plants. My tank is full of Crap-but that's ALL that's in it! If anybody ever did an HONEST study of these treatment plants, I think they'd find that they contribute more to pollution than thousands of private septic systems do. This is just another slap at getting cash from the property owner under the guise of environment. It's a scam!

Re: 2009 Senate Bill 45 (Require inspection of “on-site” wastewater treatment systems )

shearwater — Mon, 16 Mar 2009 21:54:47 GMT

uber-liberal:

sounds like the last 'baby step' before banning septic tanks and mandating that everyone be on 'taxpayer provided public sewerage lines'.

Hillsdale County tried to ram through sewers and we got together a Stop the Sewer Committee to assure no "back door sneak through" by power hungry local officials. They paid $60,000 for a three township study by an engineerring firm. The engineering study was based on the county soil survey and the statement by Gov. Grandholm that whenever possible residences should be served with public sewers. We publicized the issues very well and the people excoriated the trustees for wasting our tax dollars. Lake lots are the primary reason, and they wanted to attach liens against properties that did not pay the initial installation fee $16000 and the monthly $100 or so fee in perpetuity. They tried to do all this without much public knowledge by not advertising town board meetings and special meetings on the study. Money talks. But if the people get together and protest we can win. Frankly, I am not so much concerned about a ione-time soil survey for septic systems on new construction. I see the midnight connections as being the problem . . . people who run raw sewage into an open waterway, pond or lake.

Re: 2009 Senate Bill 45 (Require inspection of “on-site” wastewater treatment systems )

shearwater — Mon, 16 Mar 2009 21:40:18 GMT

Indiana has used a system to evaluate soils and septic site locations for about 30 years, using private soil consultants who are on a list of Indiana Registered Soil Scientists reviewed by the governors committee on soil scientists which passes on their qualifications. The nominal fee for an on-site soil survey ranges from $150 to >$3,000 for residential and commercial sites respectively. Indiana has a rule 401 that all land bought and sold must have an on-site soil survey submited to the county health department for residential; and the Indiana State Department of Health for commercial developments, prior to issuance of a building permit. As a soil scientist, I see great benefit in this system since the competition of private businesses and the oversight of county and state health officials is a check against fraud and incompetence. More information can be examined from the Indiana State Website or Purdue University.

Re: 2009 Senate Bill 45 (Require inspection of “on-site” wastewater treatment systems )

cookiemaker54 — Mon, 16 Mar 2009 20:34:35 GMT

Such as demanding an IMMEDIATE Constitutional change to a part-time Legislature with appropriate pay cuts. No more travel budgets. No more entertainment budgets. Bring back Workfare. Cut all legislative & gubernatorial staff by 50%. I could go on & on but I know you can think of your own ideas.