Education

Re: When is it too much?

crazycajun — Thu, 29 Jan 2009 23:19:32 GMT

allowing teachers to bargain against privatization is taking away their CHOICE. as in you are not allowing teachers to bargain FOR privatization.

who knows, you might just find enough teachers to whom merit is more important than union dues that might just vote FOR privatization.

but this bill takes away that FREEDOM OF CHOICE.

Re: When is it too much?

crazycajun — Thu, 29 Jan 2009 22:53:55 GMT

by the way, blue...

you list chicago as your 'other home'.

pity about your democrat governor getting impeached by a unanimous vote of the illinois senate.

perhaps this will give michiganders the needed incentive to bring impeachment against granholm for really screwing up this state.

Re: When is it too much?

crazycajun — Thu, 29 Jan 2009 22:51:37 GMT

teachers pay is paid out of state funds, allocated to local and county boards.

i'd say that the union is a BIG part of the problem, as it perpetuates mediocre education by maintaining mediocre teachers. it also seeks advancement not based on merit, but on union membership.

they also donate money to political causes not associated with education, whether the members agree or not.

to some this is graft, corruption, and theft.

Re: When is it too much?

MichL1 — Thu, 29 Jan 2009 20:49:15 GMT

You seem to be laboring under the misconception that the teachers' union negotiates contracts directly with the state. That is not, and never has been, the case. The teachers' union negotiates with the local school district.

You stated that "the union is the ROOT of most of your problems". Sorry, you're incorrect there as well. Is the union the root of SOME of the problems that education faces? Absolutely. Are the parents the root of SOME of the problems? Absolutely. Are the teachers the root of SOME of the problems? Absolutely. Are the politicians the root of SOME of the problems? Absolutely. Is society the root of SOME of the problems? Absolutely. Are the students the root of SOME of the problems? Absolutely.

What problems are solved by pointing fingers and blaming someone else? None.

There are certainly some problems and challenges facing education today. No one would deny that unless they live with their heads in the sand. However, the problems will NEVER be fixed unless everyone (teachers, parents, students and politicians) stop blaming and accusing each other, take responsibility for their part of the problem and fix what they can in their area of education.

Re: When is it too much?

crazycajun — Thu, 29 Jan 2009 17:19:30 GMT

very simple.

republican ideology isn't bankrupt,

the state of michigan IS after eight years with granholm.

now, WHO is standing before congress with their hands out?

the three detroit companies that USED to make cars. now they will make whatever the government tells them to.

so, i ask again. why couldn't granholm CURE ALL THE PROBLEMS OF MICHIGAN? why aren't the big three FLUSH WITH CASH because the democrats were in control?

why aren't the people of this country FLOCKING TO MICHIGAN instead of LEAVING IT IN DROVES?

because we are suffering from an over-abundance of democrat control in state government. we've had a ONE STATE DEPRESSION going on for six years so far, and it doesn't look like granholm is going to do anything about it anytime soon. please tell me what she's done so far to make this state better.

Re: When is it too much?

TrueBlue — Thu, 29 Jan 2009 13:02:26 GMT

crazycajun:

i didn't insult anyone. i simply questioned the logic of PAYING someone vast amounts of money to keep your job, and allowing them to use the money for electing democrats.

if the union is supposed to be so strong, why are they STILL bitching that the pay isn't high enough? or that the medical isn't good enough? for what they PAID for all those things, you'd think that the union could provide it for them, but instead, it went to elect a democrat.

was that part of the NEGOTIATED PACKAGE?

Your ignorance is an abhorant insult all on its own let alone your childish tantrums.

So why dont you answer the mans question and not constantly ask questions of your own without answering.

"Tell us, O neo-conservative, right wing republican guru, how has your ideology failed so miserably over the last decade? Shouldn't we be in an era of milk and honey after the 12 years of republican control of congress, and 8 years of Bush?

What went wrong? And save your advice on my educational efforts. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to fiqure out your ideology is bankrupt."

Re: When is it too much?

crazycajun — Wed, 28 Jan 2009 04:54:26 GMT

i didn't insult anyone. i simply questioned the logic of PAYING someone vast amounts of money to keep your job, and allowing them to use the money for electing democrats.

if the union is supposed to be so strong, why are they STILL bitching that the pay isn't high enough? or that the medical isn't good enough? for what they PAID for all those things, you'd think that the union could provide it for them, but instead, it went to elect a democrat.

was that part of the NEGOTIATED PACKAGE?

Re: When is it too much?

jmangan — Wed, 28 Jan 2009 02:46:16 GMT

Pretty shallow defense when your asked tp prove a statement, and instead resort to insulting the person questioning your statement.

Tell us, O neo-conservative, right wing republican guru, how has your ideology failed so miserably over the last decade? Shouldn't we be in an era of milk and honey after the 12 years of republican control of congress, and 8 years of Bush?

What went wrong? And save your advice on my educational efforts. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to fiqure out your ideology is bankrupt.

Re: When is it too much?

crazycajun — Tue, 27 Jan 2009 20:51:30 GMT

MichL1:

You asked "Why do teachers need a union anyway?"

1. Does the state pay fair wages? Not unless, as with any organization, it is made to do so. Here is an example for you. Back before I started teaching in Michigan, I explored the possibility of teaching in Texas (this was in 1993). At that time, teachers in Texas were not unionized. I do not know if they are today. The state of Texas had set a statewide base pay for teachers of $20,000 per year. That wage was before taxes. So, I would have to argue that, without the influence of unions, the state will not pay a fair wage unless made to do so.

<so, why does the union work so hard to elect politicians that won't pay them a decent wage? why does the union spend so much money to elect "liberal" democrats who believe that the POWER OF BIG GOVERNMENT WILL CURE ALL ILLS? and why, if they are the party to cure all ills, and promote public schools, don't they want to pay for it? ;they ARE spending billions of our tax dollars already, why not spend ENOUGH TO GIVE YOU A FAIR WAGE? all they have to do is take some more of YOUR money to do it.>

2. Does the state look after the employees? No. The state, as with any organization, looks after itself.

<so, again, why does the union work so hard to look after the STATE and NOT IT'S MEMBERS? why do the STATE REPRESENTATIVES, who were elected on the backs of union campaign contributions turn around and screw over their biggest benefactors?>

3. Does the state provide health care? What state are you living in? What is the biggest area of dispute in any contract negotiation? Health care. Teachers in my district, as well as other districts around the state, have taken less in wages so that we could have health care.

<so, why does the UNION support UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE when the STATE cannot afford to provide even rudimentary healthcare to it's teachers? why are you paying the union to support and elect those same politicians who REFUSE to spend money on YOUR HEALTHCARE???>

4. Does the state provide day care? I wasn't sure if you meant does the state provide day care for children of teachers or if you meant does the state provide day care for the students. Either way the answer is the same -- no.

<you'd think that after a democrat in the mansion for eight years, she would have at least gotten you guys some DAY CARE... (do you see a PATTERN building here???)>

5. Does the state provide job security? No.

<you mean your UNION hasn't negotiated the same deal with the state that they negotiated with the BIG THREE???? for SHAME...>

i'm wondering how an intelligent, educated person like yourself can still not see that the union is the ROOT of most of your problems? perhaps you and a few dozen of the GOOD teachers who are worth more should go out and start a PRIVATE school. superior teachers would be able to charge an acceptionally high tuition, and be entirely worth it.

if you are waiting for the state to get with the program, good luck. they aren't looking out for YOU, that's for sure.

Re: When is it too much?

MichL1 — Tue, 27 Jan 2009 20:31:26 GMT

You asked "Why do teachers need a union anyway?"

1. Does the state pay fair wages? Not unless, as with any organization, it is made to do so. Here is an example for you. Back before I started teaching in Michigan, I explored the possibility of teaching in Texas (this was in 1993). At that time, teachers in Texas were not unionized. I do not know if they are today. The state of Texas had set a statewide base pay for teachers of $20,000 per year. That wage was before taxes. So, I would have to argue that, without the influence of unions, the state will not pay a fair wage unless made to do so.

2. Does the state look after the employees? No. The state, as with any organization, looks after itself.

3. Does the state provide health care? What state are you living in? What is the biggest area of dispute in any contract negotiation? Health care. Teachers in my district, as well as other districts around the state, have taken less in wages so that we could have health care.

4. Does the state provide day care? I wasn't sure if you meant does the state provide day care for children of teachers or if you meant does the state provide day care for the students. Either way the answer is the same -- no.

5. Does the state provide job security? No.

Re: When is it too much?

crazycajun — Mon, 26 Jan 2009 16:44:56 GMT

why do teachers NEED a union anyway? doesn't the state pay fair wages? doesn't the state look after it's employees? doesn't the state provide adequate healthcare? doesn't the state provide day care? doesn't the state provide job security?

if the answer to any of these is no, then THAT is a good reason NOT to have unions, and NOT to have big government in charge of ANYTHING that ISN'T THE PROPER ROLE OF GOVERNMENT.

Re: When is it too much?

crazycajun — Mon, 26 Jan 2009 16:42:10 GMT

no, this is not a discussion, as discussions are usually between two people who have at least a working knowledge of the subject at hand.

you do not. therefore you keep insisting that i educate you about the subject matter. education is YOUR responsibility. learn how to EDUCATE YOURSELF.

I KNOW that years and years at public indoctrination centers have stripped you of that ability, but try anyway.

the last few times you tried it, you found out that you had been wrong in your assumptions. keep it up.

now, if this bill passes AS IS, teachers will have the ability to ONLY VOTE TO BAN NOT HAVING A UNION. in other words, they will have no free choice as to whether or not they are union members. they will be FORCED to be union.

is THAT the american way? NO.

how about giving teachers the ability to VOTE EITHER FOR OR AGAINST being in a union?

what are you afraid of? perhaps they won't all want to pay you a part of their hard earned pay?

Re: When is it too much?

jmangan — Mon, 26 Jan 2009 16:32:53 GMT

You see, discussion doesn't work that way. You make a statement as fact, it is incumbent on you to prove it, not someone else to prove you wrong. Get it?

Re: When is it too much?

crazycajun — Mon, 26 Jan 2009 16:23:37 GMT

once again, you prove your ignorance. go to japan, or, for lack of anything better to do, LOOK IT UP FOR YOURSELF.

BEEN THERE, DONE THAT.

prove it for yourself. google it.

Re: When is it too much?

jmangan — Mon, 26 Jan 2009 15:57:01 GMT

crazycajun:
oh yes, they have unions. very poorly attended unions. which have no say in keeping or firing an employee.

Prove it.