Michigan Votes Forum

changeagent:

darby:

but that's certainly NOT what it was in the school system where I worked.

That sounds much more reasonable. Is your plan provided by MESSA? Check out Port Huron School District.

 

 Not MESSA.  We changed years ago.  But even back when we did, they did not charge the same for single, couple or family plan.

 Want to hear a good one?  The city where I live is going to raise property taxes to fund their retiree healthcare.  And their retirees do not contribute one red cent.  Why aren't ALL government employees/retirees targeted instead of just school systems?

School systems are being targeted because people feel that they can shop around for the school they like and they don't have to care if the people in the school system earn a livable wage. Much of the purpose of targeting them is political payback. They aren't able to shop around for government, police and fire services. Although the pensions for police and fire are more generous than any that I have ever seen. Most are retired by age 50. I know that in some cities they work much harder than others. In a surburban city a firefighter could EASILY retire with a $60,000 a year pension at age 55 and full health insurance with a $5.00 copay. Similar benefits are available for police officers.

 Incase any of you don't realize this, Senate bill 1040 lowers the CAP that the system CAN subsidize of our retiree health care premium to 80% from 90%.  However, there isn't and never was any minimum.  The retirement booklet states under insurance coverage:  "Benefit levels, premium cost, and subsidy, if any, are determined by the Retirement System Board and the State of Michigan."  I interpret that to mean they do not have to cover any of the premium at all.  The rate they are currently subsidizing....for my single policy anyway....works out to be almost exactly 85%. 

Taxpayers are NOT required to pay for health care coverage when a teacher retires. Only their pension.

 I am NOT a teacher.  Every school employee is NOT a teacher!!!   And that is exactly what I said........they do not HAVE to pay anything toward insurance....but they currently do....85%.  But as a taxpayer myself too.....I AM REQUIRED to pay for our City retiree's health care - 100% of it too,  and many other government employees....beginnning with congressmen!   And the policies are much better than mine too.

darby:

Why aren't ALL government employees/retirees targeted instead of just school systems?

I agree. All public employees need to be held accountable in performance and compensation.

The problem with this bill is that it doesn't go far enough.  The state is headed right for a fiscal cliff.  If we don't fix the problem now... the worse it will be.  

Willing to contribute toward my retirement and my retirement healthcare insurance, and I currently do, and have been contributing since Day 1. What needs to change is that those who are currently voting on what educators will pay for while working and what they will receive at retirement should go by the same guidelines, ie: 1) pay the same percentage toward their own retirement and retirement healthcare insurance while working, and at retirement---and that they abide by the same guidelines. Their retirement income will be based on their years of service, income and job performance at the same rate as educators, with a multiplier the same as educators. That would be a great show of support for educators and show we have a democracy in Michigan.

 The untold story here is that it is previous legislatures and administrations, of both parties, that have created this problem of insufficient funding.  Going back to the introduction of the MIP plan in 1986 and the ongoing tinkering ever since, most often in an effort to buy some votes, we are now faced with the deficit.  I don't recall ever getting to vote on what my pension was going to be or what kind of health insurance or other benefits I might have in retirement.  Those details were put in place by governors, unelected bureaucrats and legislators.  The pension system gets more obtuse and complex (something that government seems to be good at doing with any set of rules).  Now, because of the mistakes of the past, current school employees and retirees are being told they have to bear the full financial burden to right the ship.

If this bill passes as is, good luck finding any one with any qualifications to come into public education.

 Something must be wrong with this bill!!!

My district was offering retirement workshops through our local.  All sessions filled within hours...they have now combined all workshops into one but changed venues to a high school auditorium.  If all of our experienced education employees retire, where will this leave our students?

 Since you are pointing out typos, is "whooping" the same as "whopping?" Oh, wait, you used that twice, so I think it must be a misspelling...

 Youdo not pay 20% of your salary towards health insurance.  It is 20% of the insurance premium.  While that is still a new burden on school employee's there is a difference in the information you shared.  If you think teaching is a thankless job, try being in a non teaching position in the schools.  School  definitely cater to the teachers.  I speak from 22 years of being employed in public schools in a non teaching position.

 Here's how overpaid teachers are...

Earn and purchase college major.   Earn and purchase a college minor.  Earn and purchase the remainder of a Bachelor's Degree.

Earn and purchase a Teaching Degree.  PURCHASE a full-year unpaid internship.  Purchase a Provisional Teaching Certificate.

Find a teaching job paying, on average, $35,000.

Purchase 12 graduate level college credits.  Teach for five years.  Purchase a Teaching Certificate.

Hit your professional earning ceiling, based on teacher salary steps, at 35 years of age. 

Purchase continuing education credits each year to retain a Teaching Certificate.  Repurchase Teaching Certificate every five years. 

Earn nothing for successes above and beyond. Earn nothing for overtime.  Earn nothing for three months of summer.  

Purchase mandatory professional development.  Purchase classroom supplies. 

Earn respect.

Get none.

There are two reasons our citizens pursue teaching despite massive education requirements and low pay: insurance and retirement.  These two tools are teachers' deferred salaries.  A state budget could not afford to pay appropriate yearly salaries absent insurance and retirement benefits. Managing 40 young citizens in a room for 6 hours a day and hundreds of prep hours costs money.  These are professionals.  They've earned their way there just like your lawyer did, like your doctor did, and like your accountant did.  Their only fault is placing their livelihood in the hands of public officials and people whose brash, semi-informed judgements they themselves would not be willing to face in their own professional lives - people who hide behind keyboards and find comfort in anonymous blog bashing.  These people are not solvers of problems.  They are typers of words, and those words provide no benefit to the citizenry.        

Public sector benefits have to be brought in line with the private sector.  The taxpayers can't afford these promises made by charlatans.  It is unsustainable and the state is headed for financial ruin if reforms aren't made now.   The sad fact is... SB 1040 doesn't go far enough.

 

The best thing that could happen is all these constantly whining public school teachers would resign. Then we could start over and privatize the schools. The taxpayers would get a tremendous break and the children would finally get the education they so desperately need.

 Three month vacation?  Really?  You obviously are not aware of what really goes on in teaching.  Teachers, and I mean real teachers, are not done in the summer.  Real teachers are preparing for the comming school year.  I can say that I spend many hours preparing for the next school year during the summer "vacation."  However, if you want to play that game, and say we simply work nine months of the year, OK, how about this......

- Teachers that I know, those who care and take pride in their work, do not "punch-out" when the bell rings to end the day.  I can tell you that I spend 4-5 hours each night working on school work.....grading papers, reviewing lessons, preparing lessons, not to mention the various school activities that I attend.  Oh, and I don't get extra pay for them. 

- If you think teaching is simply babysitting, well, pay me babysitter wages.  Heck, I'll take $8 per child, since I see them each 55 mins M-F.  Let's do the math.....
I see 190 student each day, so that's $1,520 a day.
That's $7,600 each week, and roughly $30,400 per week (months with four weeks).
So, only pay me for when I work.....OK.....we'll count it as 32 weeks......that's $972,800 a year. 
I would be more than willing to pay my full health insurance, and my full retirement on this salary! 

-  Anyway, if you want to know what it's like, standing in front of 190 high school students each day, trying to inspire them, I welcome you to try it. 

 That'll work.....do you know what quality of TEACHERS you get at private schools?  It may surprise you, but many of these private school teachers are not as effective as their counterpart public school teachers.  Remember, don't lump all public schools into the same basket as those that make the headlines.

 

Teachers do get 3 months off, that is one of the benefits of the job. I realize during the school year there may be extra time spent preparing lessons plans, etc....especially in the first few years of the job.  After that there are tweaks to old lesson plans used. Most people these days that are college educated with professional careers have to do "homework" as well but we do not get the benefit of more than 3-4 weeks off per year. If I could get 3 months plus off I would gladly let my employer tell me what weeks I can take. 

Most private sector employees don't have pensions at all. I would be thrilled to contribute to my own pension every year that is mostly funded by my employer. As it is, my employer puts in 3% to my 401-k ( which is very typical) and I fund the rest. 

Most posts from educators make it sound like:

1). Only the elite and most bright people can be good educators. Simply not true. I know many and they are no different in intelligence than many of my co-workers from the private sector. no matter how many degrees they have. 

2).  No one will want to be an educator now because of the changes. I think there will be plenty and they will be people that truly want to be educators for the right reasons. 

Bottom line is, if you feel under appreciated and feel you are under paid you can always do what everyone in the private sector does.....go find another job. 

Wandering,

At $1,520/day it would be $30,400/month. However, there are only 9 months that you work for a total of $273,600. There are not 32 months in a year. Baby sitters can only watch a certain number of children a day....besides we are trying to get rid of the teachers that look at it like a baby sitting position. 

 JeffV,

Saying that teachers simply "tweak" lesson plans here and there shows you are not in education.  I do agree that there are many teachers who simply ride easy street, and do not do a lot of preparing for future lessons, these too are the ones that we (I'm speaking of many teachers) want out of education.  I have taught for over ten years, and I can tell you that I do not simply "tweak" lessons.  I can speak from my own experience, and from those true teachers out there.....many of us are spending much out of school time "tweaking" lesson plans (I cannot begin to count the hours/days I have spent, given up with my family, because I am working all day Saturday and Sunday "tweaking" lesson plans, or grading papers).  I think we can both agree that there are numerous people, in numerous lines of work that don't do a whole lot.....teaching/education is no different. 

True, may private sector employees do not have pensions at all.  Pensions are going the way of the dinosaur.  However, I know in my family, many who work(ed) for the auto companies, do have a pension.  So, I do know that many people in the private sector do have a pension....but these "perks" are for sure going away.  I can live with that, honestly I can.  However, what gets me is when you're promised something, and it's taken away (again, I understand that this happens all the time in the private sector....doesn't mean that I have to like it). 

My pension is NOT funded mostly by my employer.  That line, that educators do not fund their pension, is simply not true. 

To counter your posts on what educators say....

1.  True, many teachers are no more intelligent than many of those from the private sector.  However, to be an effective teacher it does take brains....and also the abillity to entertain.  Again, I think we can both agree that there are MANY people in the private sector who are not very intelligent....so to lump all educators in one basket is unfair.

2.  I decided to be an educator because I get an intrinsic reward for doing this job.  I didn't become a teacher to get rich....far from it.  I knew that would not happen, and I'm OK with that.  Personally, I would rather enjoy my job than go to a job each day that I hate (such as my wife does.....she's not happy when Sunday night comes!). 

I do love the line "go find another job."  Well, I can throw that back at you.....if you think teaching is so easy, and we don't really work for our money, become a teacher and see what it is like.  It works both ways. 

On a side note, there are many things that those not in education simply to not know (I have to continue to pay for college classes simply to keep my job....no, districts do NOT reimburse these classes, they used to, but that has gone away LONG ago, which it should have).  Again, stand in front of 190 students each day, many of whom have little to no respect for anyone other than their friends and see what it's like when you are trying to prepare them for a test (which is used to determine if I'm an effective teacher or not).  I don't get to pick what kids I have in my class, or in our school, I am supposed to educate "all" students regardless....oh, and make sure they pass a test.  It would be like saying that all doctors (which by the way, I have taken the same number of years in college/grad school as a doctor) should be judged on how "fit" their patients are, and if a patient does not follow their "orders" or "suggestions," well, they are deemed an ineffective doctor.  Just something to think about.   

 Jeffv,

And you see that I am clearly not a math teacher.  :)

OK, still $273k is still 225k more than I make a year.....include my pension and healthcare (which we get those "numbers" from our district each year), and it's still 160k more than I make a year. 

I totally agree, we should get rid of teachers who simply look like they're babysitting....they do nothing to help educate kids.

Well, I see things differently. If we treated our teachers differently we wouldn't complain about any quality of education. You work so hard to get a degree and then you have to prove yourself over and over again, I don't think this new law is fair for the teachers.

Welcome to the private sector.  We  have to prove ourselves over and over and usually there's no pension.

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C'mon, you do not write new lessons plans every year...when i say "tweak" that is what i am refering to.  I am not saying that teachers do not work hard....simply that it isn't that bad of a job. The pay is decent, the time off is good, there is a pension and benefits are good. Plus, did I read health insurance after retirement?  Do you honestly think that you would not do it again because the benefits aren't as good?  I think most would.  This is the life and profession you chose, you can also change it any time you want to, especially with years of education and the degrees you have.

I know it sucks to get a pension taken away, it happened to me too ( in the private sector). I was supposed to get several hundred thousand dollars in a pension when I retired on top of 401-k, etc....guess what, poof...gone...altogether....now just 401-k. It did suck for a couple weeks but I got over it and realized my retirement is in my hands and I will enjoy it to the extent that I save now. 

Can you share how much you contribute to your pension and how much you receive a year at retirement?  I have read 5% put in and $20,000/year at retirement but I'm not sure how much that varies or if it's true. That seems like an okay deal. If you make $50,000/year and contribute 5% that would be $2,500/year. Common practice is you pull 4% out of retirement a year, which means to pull $20,000 your nest egg would have to be $500,000. This means you would contribute about half to your pension assuming the 5% and $20,000 are correct. Plus, all financial advisors recommend 10-15% a year in retirement so you should be saving more than just the 5% anyway. 

Also, do you get to retire after 30 years?  Is that when you can start drawing your pension? That also is a good deal if you can tap that money before 59 1/2, unlike 401-k plan and also get health insurance after retirement. 

Basically, the private sector gets upset about the complaining from teachers because even their reduced benefits are better than many/most private sector jobs. Again, I know it stinks to have a benefit and have it reduced and I don't blame people for being upset. Just saying it happens every where and even the reduced benefits are pretty good. I personally would not like to be a teacher, don't want to deal with crazy parents......Likewise, there are many things in my job that many would not like to do. It's the same everywhere......

Just be lucky you are in MI.  Here in Ohio the 129TH General Assembly is revising the 5 public pension plans for THE SECOND TIME since 2005.  The contributions for the teachers, other school employees & us public employees went from 8.5% to 10%!!!  Now as revisions to H B 69 & S B 3, the number of years to retire at ANY AGE will be increased to 32 years from 30 years.  Also, due to the FAILURE of the Teachers {STRS} pension plan [not meeting the 30 year funding on an actural basis] the teachers will see their contribution increase [it was from 10% to 12.5% over 5 years, unsure what the new S B says] and a REDUCTION OF THEIR PENSION BENEFITS!!!!!!.

ohiowilliam

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I've felt for many years that school personnel, not just teachers, should contribute more to health care (my husband and I both retired from the school system.) However, I feel the people who have already retired from Michigan schools should be grandfathered in. The pension fund is underfunded.....WHY? Because John Engler had sticky fingers and dipped into the fund and poof! It was long gone, never to be seen again. I know many people have had their pensions cut, lost, more had to be paid to their health insurance.....that is criminal. Perhaps all should be 401k's but who is to say that is safe.

Engler did not take money out of MPSERS. But he cut the allocation to MPSERS and forced the fund to use some of its reserves to cover ongoing costs. http://www.mlive.com/education/index.ssf/2012/04/a_look_at_the_history_of_mpser.html

Seems Barbwinner has been absent on her history lessons because John Engler did NOT take any money from the teachers pension funds. This my friends is how your "typical" left wing smear merchants who kiss the a$$ of Barack Obama tell complete lies. If there is no response then people believe them. It is hard to keep up with them because they lie so much and all the time. ........................... http://www.mlive.com/education/index.ssf/2012/04/a_look_at_the_history_of_mpser.html

Sorry, I was wrong to not have practiced what I preach and that is to check out the facts before I comment.  What bothers me more, and it is exactly what is wrong with our country, is the fact that you are so quick to label people as being liars and smear merchants because we have different beliefs.   I consider myself to be an Independent voter, meaning I vote for the person and what I feel best represents my beliefs.  I am both a conservative and a liberal,  it all depends on the issue at hand.  Take the chip off your shoulder my friend.

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Suddenly Getting your masters degree seems more advantageous because with further education you tend to earn more money meaning a bigger pension. It's good to invest in the future and live a comfortable life am I right ?

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What happened to the 3% pension/healthcare refund to public school employees?  State employees received the refund but not public school employees, why is that?

  

 You are right, I thought people were getting this confused.  The bill is in regards to the percent we pay into pension/healthcare (which since this post they have found it illegal to charge us for retirees healthcare and have to rename it) and the 20% is on healthcare premiums employers pay for the employees.

I just recently inquired when public school employees will get the 3% refund we were paying into the pension/healthcare that was refunded to the state employees.  Has anyone heard or read anything on this?

While this subject can be very touchy for most people, my opinion is that there has to be a middle or common ground that we all can find. I do appreciate that you have added relevant and intelligent commentary here though. 78726 Homes for Sale

 Why are people using this site for their own financial gain? Quit using this site to advertise!!

 Too bad you couldn't have provided additional documentation, but that would not work, especially when they want to compare teachers to Burger flippers, too bad they do not understand that the human condition is what it is.  I agree that something needs to be done, but making teachers a victim is akin to becoming a sister to facisism.  This site has never reported the complete facts just like the other media outlets.  They give you what they want you to know.  They help to create mob mind.  Some need to read Gustave Le Bon's book The Crowd.