Michigan Votes Forum

I don't know why you would waste you time and energy responding to these morons.

Listen dude, you need a life!

SOME pay into the pension plan......Basic members do not  (again....whether teachers or not.....this applies to all school employees....not just teachers) 

Aside from all of our differing viewpoints, which everyone is entitled to, the saddest part of all of this is the fact that good teachers will not choose to come to our state or stay in our state.  Why would they?  The brightest and the best will be recruited to states where "good" teachers are appreciated and respected.  Let's face it, without good teachers to teach our children here in Michigan, what kind of future is in store for the children or the state?  Good parenting and good teachers are paramount for successful students.  I'm all for teacher reform to make sure the best and brightest are in our schools and teaching our children, however, this type of legislation is only going to place our state in a category that will not recruit those teachers.  

 

First off, express your response in English. Secondly, it's my guess you wouldn't survive in the classroom  for even an entire week!

Thirdly, I have not had a raise in 10 years, and have also been forced to take pay cuts and reduced health insurance.Teachers are blamed

for all the evils of society! Walk in my shoes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 If you haven't had a raise in 10 years you MUST work in Flint. Pretty soon we'll have to pay a cover charge just for walking through the door. LOL 

where'sthemiddle?:

 Changeagent, The biggest mistake that the Republicans are making is assuming that all teachers are liberals. Believe it or not about 40% of us are conservatives. We're feeling like we can't support any political party. The left is way left and the right has it out for the unions. I agree with you that unions are led by people who follow a Marxist agenda. I don't subscribe to it. But I still have to have a way to make a living. I have two masters degrees and barely make any money. Don't beleve the news media when they talk about all the money we make. Its simply not true. I have a feeling we watch the same news channel. Our country's news media is tainted by their agenda too. The extreme polarization of both political parties is not healthy for this nation. I worry for the stability of our country with this divide and conquer agenda. Where's the logic in dividing the country and pitting people against eachother? Why don't our elected officials focus on getting more people to work so that we can have more people paying into the tax pool. We can't be The United States when we are so divided.

Well said!!  I lean more to the left, myself but I am no means a flaming liberal.  These taterisms are ridiculous.  I also feel the same way about dividing the nation!!! It's definitely not healthy.  The parties have split this nation on single issue items, and raised the bar of hate to a whole new level.

 

where'sthemiddle?, I understand that not all teachers share the same point of view. I hesitate to use labels like conservative and liberal because I don't think they reflect true principles. Although I know many teachers who espouse conservative ideas, they often leave the reservation when it comes to issues that effect them directly like non competitive healthcare benefits and pensions. My BCBS healthcare plan costs about $13,000 per year for a family and about $7,000 for a single person for very good coverage. The average healthcare plan for a public school employee costs close to $25,000 per year regardless of whether for a single person, a couple or a family. This amounts to about double the cost for a public sector vs. a private sector healthcare plan. When I've discussed this with 'conservative' teachers who otherwise believe in limited government, etc., they insist they need insurance that includes things like therapeutic massage because the job is stressful, etc. Typically, public employees pay little or no percentage of the cost of their insurance. Because our company only pays 75% of the cost for a single person, the employees and the company are always looking for ways to balance plan quality with plan cost. This is not the case with public employees since they only have an interest in plan quality and not plan cost. Meanwhile, many school districts, including mine, consistently complain about not having enough money for infrastructure, teaching tools, books, supplies etc. and regularly plead to the citizens that they need millage increases to pay for these things or they won't be able to provide a quality education. At the same time, we parents are constantly fighting for a quality education for our children while the public schools often cater to the lowest common denominator under the guise of fairness. Add to this the very generous defined benefit pension system for teacher that can allow someone to retire before the age of 50 and live off taxpayers for the next 40 years they may live. It doesn't take two masters degrees to figure out why there is a backlash to the public school system. Since teachers salaries are public record I'm puzzled by your remark that you "barely make any money" which is a very subjective statement. Teacher pay scales are determined by length of service and level of education as negotiated by the union. Neither of these factors reflect what should be the most important attribute of a teacher; how well they actually educate their students. Someone could be a very good teacher and only have a bachelor's degree, or no degree at all for that matter, while another person could have a doctorate and be a very poor educator. I know this for a fact, I've seen it. Again, another reason to dislike the effect of unions, especially if you are a parent. As far as polarization goes, the reason is clear to me. Some people see the government as a benevolent provider of all things good. Others see it for what it is; a necessary evil that produces nothing and only gives what it takes from others. In the words of writer Robert Heinlein "Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire." The bottom line is, it's not personal. I don't blame teachers for wanting to get as much as they can. It's human nature and it's OK. Just don't expect it to happen without resistance from those who purchase your services who, like everyone else, want to get the most value for their money.

My district has not given us a raise in 10 years. When you factor in inflation I am making much less money now. Our district also has employees pay a portion for our health care benefits. I pay $695 a month for family coverage. These types of things are negotiated at the local level. While I agree with you that a person could be a great teacher with just a bachelor's, Michigan requires teachers to get 6 master's level credits to renew our certificate. The individual teacher has to pay for it so it's only natural that they attain a master's degree so as to get compensation for the additional costs. This drives up salary costs for the district and retirement costs for the state. They could look at changing this requirement to save money. The state could also save money by lumping all the state teachers into one large health care plan instead of having it negotiated at the district level. The state could save a ton of money by consolidation of services. It would save money and reduce red tape. I can even see making changes on the retirement benefits for new hires as a good way to reduce costs. But these new hires would at least be able to make the decision going into it and make financial plans to adjust. I'm a mid/late-career teacher and I haven't budgeted for the huge added expense. There needs to be a grandfather clause for employees like me.

 

I agree with pretty much everything you've said above and I think all of that supports my contention that the system itself is broken and that legislative bandages on specific problems are no longer the answer. The Michigan laws requiring certain levels education for teachers were instigated by and lobbied for by the MEA. The damage they have done to our education system is staggering. I also agree that it would be unfair to change the pension system for mid/late-career teachers. Again, the way to really fix the problem is through true school choice and vouchers or education tax credits. A solution that is unlikely to happen considering the current limits in our state constitution. The current effort to outlaw right to work laws in Michigan will do the same kind of damage if successful.

Changes are coming........to Michigan. They are happening in New York City and this is a liberal, true blue city to say the least. ..........................http://laborpains.org/2012/01/13/bloomberg-to-bypass-union-benefit-students/ and then we have this: http://laborpains.org/2012/04/05/unions-hard-at-work-occupying-the-99/ Makes you proud to be a teacher doesn't it?

 Well if you tearcher are so smart then why is the USA the lowest educated country in the world??? Also WHY can't most of the children that gratuate can't read??? Smart Ass

Here is the official State of Michigan report on how well our public school students are now doing. It is pathetic. According to the MME score, only 17.1% of students in 11th and 12th grade are proficient in reading, writing, math, science, and social studies. Our kids are being cheated out Of a good education, and the taxpayers are being robbed of a whole lot of money. The only solution is to privatize schools. In order to more accurately reflect career and college readiness, the Michigan Department of Education will use more rigorous proficiency calculations (cut scores) for key subject matter areas. The new cut scores will be applied to MEAP and MME tests administered during the 2011 - 2012 school year. Student Outcomes From Michigan School Data Michigan.Gov Prior MEAPS compared to new 'cut' MEAPS Prior Current Third Grade Reading Proficiency 63.2% 62% Student Academic Growth 3-8 12.4% 14.5% Students proficient in Math and Reading 3-8 32.8% 34% Students Proficient on MME 15.8% 17.1% ACT Composite Score 19.3 19.3 ACT College Readiness Benchmarks 16% 17.3% 4 year Graduation Rate 76% 74.3%

The liberal media, liberal administrators and liberal politicians will blame the parents because of these low scores. That is a fact! They can not slam the system they support for their huge pensions and benefits. Their Union(s) will never allow them to say anything because they can not defame their union and contracts. Their only answer is to "throw more money" into the system and this should "correct" the problem of bad grades. The problem is "tenure"........plain and simple. Take that away and the teachers who can't wipe their own rear ends, more-less teach can be let go! ............. www.TeachersUnionexposed.com

Why is it that people who cannot spell always can correctly spell anything profane? Other countries value their educators and children are expected to apply themselves. Learning does not happen through osmosis.

I do pay into my pension and I am a teacher. Get your facts straight before you go making a total fool of yourself. Oops to late!

Hey teacher, Pay a little respect to your employer! Remember, you are a public servant.

Facts and truths.........not BS: .. www.TeachersUnionexposed.com .. www.UnionFacts.com .. www.UnionFreeAmerica.com

Respect is earned. Writing comments to mislead others is not going to earn my respect. I have a right as an American to stand up for what I feel is right and not agree with others just because they want to bully me.

Correct. Most public school teachers don’t deserve any respect because they are not doing the job they are well paid to do. As far as comments that are misleading, teachers claiming poor test results are caused by large class size, lack of funds, or bad parenting are good examples. And as an American, I have a right to object to the way teachers unions bully the taxpayer.

 Again, let's quit talking about just teachers for a minute and consider the burden this would be to the lower paid school employee.....say a clerk or cleaner making about $10 an hour. A policy for just a single person is approximately $650 a month. So 20% of that would equal about 8% of their salary. Federal tax would be in the 10% bracket, state tax 4.35%, FICA 7.65% (normally...currently reduced due to the stimulus), Retirement is approx. 4%, and the newer deduction toward retiree health care is 3%. That's a whopping 37% of their salary. That would be a bring home of only $504 every TWO weeks! Why bother working? Lots of folks unemployment is $700 every TWO weeks!

darby:

Again, let's quit talking about just teachers for a minute and consider the burden this would be to the lower paid school employee..

Based on your logic we should simply double the pay for these workers since they clearly need more money. From each according to his ability, to each according to their need. Hmm... where have I heard that before?

 I didn't say that ......just that it would be a much bigger burden to them than to a teacher or administrator. No logic involved. A fact. Period

The fact is, heath care and pension benefits are expensive and someone has to pay for them. The more the beneficiary has to participate, the more likely it is that they will make an informed decision about the value of those benefits vs. the costs. The money used to pay the benefits comes from taxpayers, many of whom are also struggling to make ends meet.

 That is true.  Public employees should not have better pay and benefits than the taxpayers who are funding it do.  However, I've often compared to my sister who worked for a large company (in a comparable job as mine at the school system) that made automotive parts.  Yes, she contributed toward her health insurance.  But, she also got 5% raises.  For the last 10 years I worked, I got no raise some years, others 1% or half of a percent raise.  There are also no bonuses or profit sharing.  She also had a defined pension plan AND a 401K with company match.

Did you mention the fact that teachers get an automatic 3% increase per year in their pension when they retire?

Any school employee in the MIP plan does....not just teachers.  I was in the basic plan and do not. 

changeagent:

darby:

Again, let's quit talking about just teachers for a minute and consider the burden this would be to the lower paid school employee..

Based on your logic we should simply double the pay for these workers since they clearly need more money. From each according to his ability, to each according to their need. Hmm... where have I heard that before?

 

 I forgot to add that our system also start demanding a minimum associates degree but bachelor's preferred for our clerks and secretaries, some whose starting pay was $10 an hour or less. 

 You must not of paid much attention to your teachers the way you spell!

Must not of ? I rest my case.

 Well  said.

It amazes me that people do not value education. In the end it is their children that are going to be hurt by this. Teachers are dedicated individuals who care about the children. But they also have to live and support their own families. At the rate this state is going, no quality individual is going to want to be an educator. It's not so much the pay as the vendetta against us and the way teachers are being made to feel like second class citizens.

Looks like us fools shall vote accordingly then if teachers do not want to accept the fact that kids are not being taught the skills needed to advance in this world. 24% graduation rate for Detroit males and they still can not spell or do 8th grade math. How much do these teachers make for 9 months of work?

 Yes, its all our fault. All of us Detroit must be illiterate fools that just don't give a damn. I wish you could walk in our shoes 4 a week. Then just maybe you and all of those that share your opinion of us would be more enlightened.

 Many of us do not. We are in the basic pension plan.

I agree! Why don't we all just pick and choose who we help? If you are a private school you can exclude kids so why don't public schools do that too? It sure would make a teacher's job a lot easier! How about doctors? They should only take the best patients. The ones that take their medication and are more likely to be cured. Life will be so much easier for everyone if we just try to stop helping those that are not as fortunate as others! Why have I not seen the lunacy in fighting against this for so long? Hmmmm, because I care about all of my students. ESPECIALLY the ones that struggle and don't have the home support or have a learning disability. Some people will never get that educating children is not a one size fits all. I don't take that approach to my teaching and for those of you wanting to fix it you should not be blaming every teacher out there for all that is wrong with education in this country. Our values as a country have changed and families need to support their children with their education and stop scheduling them every night for so many activities and have them read and do their homework. We are never going to keep up with the rest of the world if we put children's sports and activities before education. That is what happens where I teach. We are a successful school district but so many parents are afraid of their children failing due to their (the parent's poor time management) that they do their children's homework. Sending homework home is often an exercise in futility.

sweendawg71:

 You must not of paid much attention to your teachers the way you spell!

 

 And YOU did?    Must not "of" ???    LOL    It's must not "have"!!!!!! 

darby:

 I forgot to add that our system also start demanding a minimum associates degree but bachelor's preferred for our clerks and secretaries, some whose starting pay was $10 an hour or less. 

All the more reason to introduce competition into the education system in form of for profit schools.

GodblessAmerica64:

Hmmmm, because I care about all of my students.

I also care about all of the children but I must admit, I care about my own children even more and naturally want the very best for them. They are forced to attend a school that does not teach to their full potential because the classrooms have several students who are unable to keep pace with the majority of the students. Rather than putting the slower students in a separate program, all the rest of the students are forced to wait. The net effect is punishing the brightest, hardest working students and the parents who do their jobs properly while rewarding the students and parents who do not put forth the effort. I understand that it is not always fault of the slower students; we are all different. Unfortunately, the net effect is the same.

 

changeagent:

My BCBS healthcare plan costs about $13,000 per year for a family and about $7,000 for a single person for very good coverage. The average healthcare plan for a public school employee costs close to $25,000 per year regardless of whether for a single person, a couple or a family. This amounts to about double the cost for a public sector vs. a private sector healthcare plan.

I don't know where you got your information for the "average" school employee healthcare plan, but that's certainly NOT what it was in the school system where I worked.  My single plan was right around $650 per month or $7,800 annually.  Plans for a couple and family were more of course, but relatively priced.  I'll also add that my plan now in retirement is just about the same price, of which I am currently contributing 15%.

darby:

but that's certainly NOT what it was in the school system where I worked.

That sounds much more reasonable. Is your plan provided by MESSA? Check out Port Huron School District.