Michigan Votes Forum

Introduced in the Senate on March 22, 2012

Click here to view bill details.

 A whooping 5 per cent?

That's almost as much as the sales tax!

 Everybody else pays into there penison why not the teacher also. I don't know of anybody alive to this date that has a 3month vacation like the teacher does. So make them pay for there penicon like the rest of American do.

As long as the public sector (public servants) are represented by unions like the MEA and SEIU, we peasants in the private sector will be forced to pay for their outrageous wages and benefits that are nearly double in comparison. These unions control our so called representatives in Lansing. That is pretty obvious. ‘Right To Work’ anyone?

After 27 years of teaching, I have a friend that works stocking shelves in a factory for the same amount of years and makes the same amount as I do (more with overtime)! How can you dare call our wages "outrageous". I'm sure you were exaggerating to make a point, but I think my initial education, and continuing education should be compensated...if not with wages, then at least with benefits. And I can tell you that our unions do NOT control our representatives, otherwise there wouldn't have been the major cuts made in education this year. I wish we had the power you assume we do!

I dare because it is a fact. How dare you claim that a person stocking shelves makes more money then a teacher? If that is true, may I suggest you get a job there? "The Heritage Center for Data Analysis questions the conventional wisdom and finds that, instead of being underpaid, people entering the teaching profession actually make one and a half times what they would have in other lines of work". http://thf_media.s3.amazonaws.com/2011/pdf/CDA11-03.pdf

By "other lines of work", do you mean servers at McDonalds? Customer service representatives? Unskilled laborers? Yes, I guess we do. But I have a master's degree in education, and I know there are many other professionals, that have had fewer years of higher education that make MUCH more than teachers. I'd like to have apples compared to apples.

Michigan - MEA has a 28 page manual which instructs its members to use students as propaganda for contract negotiations. The MEA bows to the Saul Alinsky "Rules for Radicals". This is why Public Unions are not wanted in the United States. http://www.theblaze.com/stories/revealed-michigan-union-manual-instructing-teachers-on-how-to-use-children-as-propoganda/

Public school teachers, members of publc Unions are the highest paid state workers: http://cnsnews.com/news/article/dept-labor-public-school-teachers-are-highest-paid-state-workers-compensation-doubles Salaries of Union Representatives in the U.S.: www.UnionFacts.com

Talk about greed? Here is proof that the taxpayers are being fleeced by the Teachers Union in the state of Illinois. http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/2011/02/gimme-gimme.html

 Teachers already pay into their pensions as "everybody" else does.  I am not sure where the myth that teachers get a "free" pension comes from. All this bill does is make teachers pay a lot more into a pension.  I am wondering if the legislators (who are also public employees) are contributing 8% of their salaries? My guess is, probably not!  Also, let's not forget the 20% that teachers are now paying towards their health insurance AND the 3% that the state began taking last year for retiree health.  Let's see that is 31% of their salary GONE, for a thankless job!  

 There are so many misinformed people and misconceptions, regarding the teaching professsion.  Unless you are well informed, please do not comment on issues you know nothing about. 

 

Wow! “31% of their salary GONE”. Since when is a whooping 20% of you paycheck taken out for healthcare coverage? The 20% proposed is 20% of their healthcare premium cost, not their wages. And as usual, the MEA union thugs are protesting it by screaming bloody murder and trying to recall Governor Snyder again. The reason it is a thankless job is because most teachers don’t deserve a thank you. Have you seen the latest MEAP (cut) scores? Utterly disgusting! Now that the test requires over 50% of the questions to be correct, only 34% are proficient in Math and Reading in grades (3-8) A measly 17.1% are college ready when tested in 11th or 12th grade. The source for this is Michigan.GOV which I doubt is “misinformed”. https://www.mischooldata.org/Default.aspx Public school teachers should be thanking the taxpayers for the BILLIONS of dollars each year we give them to educate our children. If they were paid according to performance, many would be fired. Our children are being cheated out of a good education and the taxpayers are being robbed of money. And while I am at it, is “professsion” the same as profession? Way to go teach!

Teachers get paid for working 9 months of the year. That "3 month vacation" time is spent taking college classes, required by the state - which teachers pay for out of pocket. Teachers have paid into pension though paycheck and as a tax payer. You might be interested to know that former Gov. Engler used teacher retirement funds in the mid 1990s to use for state purposes, never paid it back and has left a sound retirement system broken. Teachers pay toward the pension for all retired teachers and also pay for school books and snack and pencils and shoes and food for our kids that can't pay for these things. You and the legislature of Michigan might want to "walk a mile in a teacher's moccasins" and then complain about the work they do and the "whopping" retirement granted after 30 years of teaching, showing up each day for kids! You might have had some teachers you didn't like as a kid or with your kids is school, but you really need to meet the dedicated teachers you've never met. You try teaching!

Why didn't you become a teacher?

I agree with you! Teachers give a lot more that 31% by taking care of the needs of kids. Teachers are the ones who show up each day for a kids with absent parents. I'm not sure when being a teacher became such a hated and disrespected profession. I sent my kids to school because I didn't know how to teach them. Their teachers did a pretty fair job! They weren't perfect, but I haven't met a perfect person yet! I sure wish people who could do the work better would step up to the plate, rather than complain. I'd also like to be a Senator or Representative that gets an automatic raise each year UNLESS he/she decides to vote it down!

 In the first place there are lots of other school employees who are not teachers.  Administrators, clerical, teacher assistants, bus drivers, custodians and childcare workers to be exact.  This is not ABOUT how hard teachers may or may not work or their pay.  I'm a retired school payroll clerk and I'd like to see any of you teachers have a crack at it.  But like I said, that's not the point.  First Gov. Snyder taxed my pension, and if this passes too, I'll be shellilng out another almost $400 a year for health insurance.  And something else in the bill that really bothers me is that things like Longevity will no longer be reportable for retirement and will not count in calculating the pension.  I do know that some groups have the longevity built into their salaries or hourly rates, rather than a lump sum like I got. Not only did hourly folks get much more this way if they happened to work a lot of overtime, but how would it possibly be separated now so as not to be reportable for them or those who are salaried and the longevity is part of the total salary....or will it only be the unlucky ones who get the lump sum who won't have it count?  Hmmm....maybe they'll even go back and recalculate current retirees pensions to not include longevity, and reduce our pensions.  I'd put nothing past these Republicans.  Yeah, I'd like to get a Senator's automatic raises, and their pensions and health benefits too!  Why don't they start AT THE TOP!!!!!!!!!!!

I am a teacher and I DO pay into my paycheck every pay. Teachers that were hired after 1990 are required to contribute towards their pension. It is funny that you bring up a 3 month "vacation". I would very willingly get vacation days that I could take at any time just like the private sector. Parents are the ones that would not like not being able to take vacations. We already have kids that are missing school this week because they are on cruises or other family vacations. My family can only take a vacation in the summer because I would be docked if I took any additional time off during regularly scheduled school breaks.

GodblessAmerica64:

I am a teacher and I DO pay into my paycheck every pay. Teachers that were hired after 1990 are required to contribute towards their pension. It is funny that you bring up a 3 month "vacation". I would very willingly get vacation days that I could take at any time just like the private sector. Parents are the ones that would not like not being able to take vacations. We already have kids that are missing school this week because they are on cruises or other family vacations. My family can only take a vacation in the summer because I would be docked if I took any additional time off during regularly scheduled school breaks.

Thank you for being a teacher!!!!!!  Keep fighting!!!!!  98% of the people bitching about you wouldn't do that job!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Or couldn't due to the lack of education.

What a bunch of rambling. If anyone needs an education, it is you! Thank you for dumbing down our children.

jercom:

What a bunch of rambling. If anyone needs an education, it is you! Thank you for dumbing down our children.

Listen bro, the only rambling here is the ignorance spewed from your big mouth.  Between you and your mayonaise infused spud buddy speading hate and fear amongst the people of this web site.  It's a sham.  How come you republicants never talk about union police, fireman, water department workers, road commishion workers and every over gov't employee out there?  Just the teachers????  You DB's couldn't even comprehend the compassion put into that job and what it takes to be a good teacher.  

I do find it very interesting that other government employees are exempt from these constant attacks. I know many firefighters that have retired in their early 50's with full pensions and health insurance. Same with police officers. Why is the focus on those in education? I think because we dared to stand up for ourselves and that ticked the village idiots off!

Biggest "Scam" in the United States and paid for by the taxpayers: 1. Firefighters & police can retire after 25 or 30 years, depending on their Union contract. 2. Pensions are calculated this way: a. policeman works as much overtime during his last 5 years of service before retirement. Seniority gets him the first crack at overtime or if a traffic cop....he rights excessive tickets to get court appearances for overtime instead of the streets. b. Overtime is added up as his earnings for the 5 years total and his pension is then based on his average 5 years earnings. Nice little scam at the tax payers expense. With housing prices going down and cities revenues decreased, this places a heavy burden on the city and its services to pay for this legacy cost(s) that has been "inflated" to provide a hefty retirement for these great service providers.

17.3% of kids who graduate from public schools are not prepared for college. That is from Michigan.org If only 17.3% of fires were put out by firemen, and 17.3% of criminals who commit crimes were arrested by police, then I would complain about them. But most of them are doing the job they get paid to do. I can't say the same for public school teachers.

If 100% of our student's parents supported their child's education at home and at school imagine what we could do! I love what I do, and would not do anything different. It's just hard to see our new young educators starting out with the same wage as unskilled laborers, when they have had 5 years of college, and will have the costs of continuing education throughout their careers....and now paying out for insurance and retirement. How many other professions with our pay and expenses do that? Teacher have to LOVE what they do, or we wouldn't stay teaching, for sure....

jercom:

17.3% of kids who graduate from public schools are not prepared for college. That is from Michigan.org If only 17.3% of fires were put out by firemen, and 17.3% of criminals who commit crimes were arrested by police, then I would complain about them. But most of them are doing the job they get paid to do. I can't say the same for public school teachers.

I applaud you for not jumping completely on the anti-union band wagon.  Unlike a few people on this site.

SSlaw said exactly what I was gonna say.  Parents have a big job on their hands..... they don't do it!!!  With today's greed, business owners constantly want more for them selves, which usually ends up with them paying their employees less.  In turn working moms and dads have to work 2,3,4 jobs to make ends meet.  That reflects on their parenting skills because all they are thinking about is feeding their families.  What I am saying is there needs to be more "living wage" jobs out there or everyone suffers.  This is exactly what is happening now!!!!  Then people get on some blog and *** about teachers when they more then likely are doing everything in their power, but the kids just don't have the parenting to complete the task!!  Henry Ford paid $5 a day in 1914 because he knew he would grow a following of people who could afford his cars and take care of their families.  What you usually don't know about this story is that if Ford found out that your wife was working outside the home he only paid you $2.50!!  He had a standard of what home life should be.  America has lost that!!! Quit blaming the teachers!!!  There is more to the equation...........

 I also know a whole lot of the "rest of America" who have 401K's get an EMPLOYER MATCH.....and many also have big company paid pensions with 30 years and out like the auto workers!

 Any of you out there in the private sector (who can use your vacation at any time) get THREE MONTHS vacation?? PLUS 2 weeks off at Christmas; a week of "winter break" about a month after the long xmas break. And then a week long Easter break too.  GIVE ME A BREAK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  (excuse the pun)     OH....and let's not forget paid "snow days".   Somehow the private sector all manages to get to work.   I'm sure there are lots of things teachers could be doing if required to report.  But anyway.....like I already said, there are MANY OTHER school employees that this affects, and is not only about TEACHERS!!!   And if you think teacher pay is low......mine was still lower than any starting teacher after 37 years of school payroll.  And yes, I had to report on snow days.  And wokred all summer, etc.  I got only the holidays that most private sector companies give their employees.  As someone else already said, the benefits at least were decent.

 And what she says applies to ALL OTHER school employees too.....not just TEACHERS!!!!!!     Remember, the name of our pension system is:  MICHIGAN PUBLIC SCHOOL EMPLOYEES RETIREMENT SYSTEM.......not  "Michigan Public Teachers Retirement System"

As usual......Teachers think no one else matters but THEM.

 

Will Michigan's teachers pension fund end up just like California's? ....... Does anyone on this website actually know what the shortfall IS for Michigan's teachers pension fund. Here is California's: ................... http://www.libertynews.com/2012/04/16/pensions-again/

There, their, or they're, cen20474?  Get it right.

Teachers get paid for the days in their contract, not a day more or fewer.  If you want to add days to their school year, then you have to pay them for it, just as the rest of Americans do.

Teachers are over paid, and as far as the contract goes everyone would like three month off every year. And beside (WHY don't you pay into your penison like everybody else does????) 

Do your research....we do pay into our pension plans.

Do your research before you post incorrect information. Teachers do pay into their pension plans.

peppo:

With today's greed, business owners constantly want more for them selves, which usually ends up with them paying their employees less.

Business owners wanting to earn a profit on their investment in capital, long hours and risk is no more greedy than union workers wanting to be paid more and work less, so let's not start slamming business owners. We all want to make more money and spend more time with our families.

peppo:

 Henry Ford paid $5 a day in 1914 because he knew he would grow a following of people who could afford his cars and take care of their families.

Despite how well Ford paid his employees, it wasn't enough. Union organizers steeped in the philosophy of Karl Marx coerced the government into forcing Ford to allow unionization of his work force. The best solution to all economic issues is free choice by people to work where they choose at a wage they agree upon with person who employs them and for those who own businesses to be able hire whomever they choose without the threat of violence. When they no longer wish to pay for the services of someone, they should be able to end that relationship. It's called a free market and there has never been a more effective economic system on earth.

All of these reforms are simply bandages on very broken system. Only when parents are allowed to spend their education money where they choose will we see a vast improvement in the education of our children. The arguments in this thread are charged with personal attacks and inaccuracies on both sides. Real competition would solve all of these problems; from cost to quality. It's time we stop using our children as cannon fodder and put real reform in place in the form of education tax credits or vouchers.

How can liberals explain this then? .... ... http://www.michigancapitolconfidential.com/16789

changeagent:

so let's not start slamming business owners.

Hahahaha funny......

changeagent:

Despite how well Ford paid his employees, it wasn't enough. Union organizers steeped in the philosophy of Karl Marx coerced the government into forcing Ford to allow unionization of his work force. The best solution to all economic issues is free choice by people to work where they choose at a wage they agree upon with person who employs them and for those who own businesses to be able hire whomever they choose without the threat of violence. When they no longer wish to pay for the services of someone, they should be able to end that relationship. It's called a free market and there has never been a more effective economic system on earth.

I believe if Henry Ford would have kept up his values after 37 years and given the employees raises and created a safer work place then he probably wouldn't have been unionized in 1941.

And where or what did you read that the government forced Henry Ford to unionize???  LOL that is bordering on Taterphilosiphy.......With a sit down strike in 1941, Ford under pressure from his WIFE sat down and finally bargained with the UAW.  

peppo:

And where or what did you read that the government forced Henry Ford to unionize???

Well, let's see. In 1914 The Clayton Act. In 1926 the Railway Labor Act. In 1931 the Davis-Bacon Act. In 1932 the Norris-LaGuardia Act. In 1933 the National Industry Recovery Act. In 1935 the Wagner Act. In 1936 the Walsh-Healy Act. In 1938 the Fair Labor Standards Act. Although all of these laws did not directly effect Ford, they all did indirectly. Government intervention in the market made it impossible for Ford to defend himself from union organizers. With the force of government working against him, he could not hire and fire whom he chose. He could not have trespassers removed from his property. Unfortunately, the concept of men of free will agreeing to sell their skills to other men of free will at an agreed upon rate is so foreign to die hard unionists, they simply cannot comprehend it. Coercion and force are never a good solution, regardless of which side you stand on.

 Changeagent, The biggest mistake that the Republicans are making is assuming that all teachers are liberals. Believe it or not about 40% of us are conservatives. We're feeling like we can't support any political party. The left is way left and the right has it out for the unions. I agree with you that unions are led by people who follow a Marxist agenda. I don't subscribe to it. But I still have to have a way to make a living. I have two masters degrees and barely make any money. Don't beleve the news media when they talk about all the money we make. Its simply not true. I have a feeling we watch the same news channel. Our country's news media is tainted by their agenda too. The extreme polarization of both political parties is not healthy for this nation. I worry for the stability of our country with this divide and conquer agenda. Where's the logic in dividing the country and pitting people against eachother? Why don't our elected officials focus on getting more people to work so that we can have more people paying into the tax pool. We can't be The United States when we are so divided.

Since you seem to know it all, why don't you teach?