Michigan Votes Forum

I"m glad you have enjoyed yourself. May I suggest you might find more enjoyment in doing a little research and forming your opinions on fact rather than anecdote. It would at least make your arguments sound more adult like. I hope to see an improvement in your debating skills as I continue to express my opinion in this forum.

Oh, one more thing. Declaring victory while retreating is not very convincing. And don't worry about me making it in the "real world", I've been somehow doing that for near seventy years.

 

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gypsy:

I'll answer your closing question first.

changeagent:

When was the last time the UAW invented something people wanted to buy?

1935, when the UAW was born.

That's a long time to depend on one product.  Apparently it's outdated since the consumers only buy it now when forced to do so.

 

 Just keep drinking the KoolAide gypsy, I think I will go  have a cup of tea.

changeagent:

That's a long time to depend on one product. 

Quality endures, and the consumer is not "forced" to buy it. No one is forcing any person to work at a UAW represented facility. In fact, I have heard that those jobs are highly coveted.

 But ,you are forced to join the uaw if you somehow could get a job ( which is impossible unless you have inside connections with the corrupt union though a relative or a friend). In a right to work state the union connot force you to join and cannot take your dues and give them to politicans that promise to save the unions (as they did with the uaw/gm bailouts). Unions cannot stand alone they must first take from someone else,just like the parasites that they are.

The UAW is the duly and legally recognized representative of the workers. Any one applying for a job knows this, and most are very happy to join a union that has done so much for their constituents, and society as a whole. Those not wishing to join the UAW, or any union for that matter, are free to apply for jobs at non-union facilities. In a right to work for less state, the union members carry the water for those not joining the union, even though non members enjoy the benefits the union bargains for. Now that fits the definition of a parasite.

 definition : Parasite(uaw) is an organism that spends it life attached to a single host (GM/Ford/ Chrysler) until it utimately sucks the life out of it.

I remember 2 cases prosecuted recently by Federal Organizied Crime and Racketeering where shop committee men were found guilty of conspiracy to violate the Taft-Hartley Act and conspiracy to extort under the Hobbs Act. In this case they were found to have though extortion of  the company to hire relatives to high paying skilled trades jobs,of which they had no skills. They were also found to have embezzled $480,000.00 from the uaw members. This is only a small example of your beloved leadership.

Another example of your anecdotes being used to form opinion. Name the people, the event, the dates, etc.. You sound like most of the teabaggers. All talk and no facts.

 Donny G Douglas and Jay D Campbell , Convicted and sentenced in US District Court  In 2006.In Jan 2011 they lost an appeal an appeal and were remanded for resentencing. This is not an opinion ,this is fact.

gypsy:

Another example of your anecdotes being used to form opinion. Name the people, the event, the dates, etc.. You sound like most of the teabaggers. All talk and no facts.

 So keep talkin without knowing what your sayin .

And you my friend, are only seeing one side of the coin. These two were in cohots with management at the GM truck assembly plant. Bad apples on both sides of the fence. When you only look for reinforcement of your preconceived opinion, you miss a lot. Seems to be a pattern with you.

They were convicted, no one from the managment side was even charged . You are trying to make something up that is not true to make your union thugs look good.You are the one who fails to see the corruption when it is layed out in front of you  . Try all you want but you can't spin this.. Gypsy you are a joke, unions are on the way out .

How do you think they got their relatives hired if their wasn't cooperation from the company side? They do the hiring. I happen to know of this situation in some detail. No one from the management side was charged because there is no law against them hiring whomever they want. There were consequenses paid by management people involved in this conspirancy, let me assure you.

Pointing out two corrupt union officials and drawing a conclusion that all union leaders, and collective bargaining in general is corrupt, exposes your preconceived opinion. Using your faulty and immature reasoning, since Jeff Skilling of Enron infamy was corrupt, so is every other CEO of our major corporations. I don't believe that. No joke.

 You seem to think you know every situation in detail, but actually you are lead to those conclusions by all the propaganda union crap you have been feed all your life. The day of the union is over. The socialist left cannot revive it. I not only think that right to work zones should be  used I think Michigan should be a right to work state. You asked me to give you examples of union corruption and I did it ,I could go on but I don't have the time . This is the type of nepotism and corruption that goes on daily though out the uaw. In a recent Luntz poll over 50 % of the union workers feel their union is corrupt and is not to be trusted. That says alot. The poll also said 70+% said unions should not be able to contibute to polictical(democrat) parties. No wonder considering what the unions and democrats have done to Flint,Pontiac,and Detroit. The two union thugs we are reffering to held up GM for days by prolonging a strike that cost the company millions of dollars until they hired the  non-competent ,non-qualified,son and a friend to $200,000.00 a year jobs.Unfourtunalty they don't prosucute more of these sleaze-bags.No joke.

 

Quite a statement, filled with misinformation and distortion; and you're right, it isn't even funny. I'll rebut in reverse order.

As a matter of fact, "they" do prosecute more union criminals than corporate criminals. Our nation's economy has recently been brought to it's knees by the malfeasance of bankers, yet non have been prosecuted. BP not long ago filled the Gulf of Mexico with crude oil and killed several of their workers, due to their avoidance of proper safety procedure, yet their CEO is still a free man. Massey mining not long ago killed many of their miners because of documented safety violations, yet again, no manager has gone to jail or even been prosecuted.

Even the best paid skilled tradesmen at GM doesn't make $200,000 per year.

You quote a Frank Luntz poll? Get serious. He works for the GOP/ Fox News, and his polls are meant to reflect the view he seeks. His specialty is using words that will turn public opinion on an issue or candidate. And you accuse me of being led by propaganda.

What the unions did for Detroit, Flint and Pontiac was make them the job mecca of the nation after WWII, and gave them a tax base to build cities on and subdivisions on well into the next century. What so-called free trade and the global economy did, along with incompetent management of the auto companies, was destroy that.

What will revive the union movement in this nation is corporate greed, the same catalyst that spawned it in the last century.

 

 Unions cripple companies. They thwart efficient goverment . They drive up prices and drive down services. They are anti-technology,and anti-productivety. No sane person is going to invest their capital,take risk

and inovate if all they are doing is handing out money to union members who can't be fired , disciplined,or forced to use profit making technologies.It is time to let the unions die (no more bailouts ) let the market set wages,prices,and product. The auto industry is a Marxist fanatsy world habitated by unions. The time of unionized Marxism is long over. Gm ,Chrysler,and big goverment incompetence are the obvious conclusion to this .

Union+Liberal=Corruption+Inefficiency

Unions give workers a collective voice to bargain for their fair share of the rewards gained through improvements in productivity and technology they help make possible.

Which market would you like to see set wages, the Chinese, the Mexican or maybe there is some country with even lower wages.

Union members can be fired, disciplined, and trained to use profit making technologies. They can also be trained to install, maintain and repair high tech equipment. The union encourages this, and most unions either provide or participate in training their members. Unions are not against profit. They just want a share of it, since their labor makes it possible for corporations to make it. That, my friend, is the definition of free enterprise. Labor is not a comodity, it is people. People with families, people who buy things and pay taxes, and people with hopes and dreams of a better life.

 

 Maybe in theory,but history has shown a much different reality.

Maybe history according to Glen Beck, but not real history. It's shown union workers make more money, have better benefits, and are safer on the job.

That is about the dumbest reply that I have read. Obviously your father or husband is one of those republican law makers that voted for this anti-middle class bill!

This is an anti middle class bill. Unfortunately, it has been passed. Fortunately, we will have a chance in the fiture to elect representatives who understand that a strong middle class is what makes a thriving economy.

 To the typical liberal crybaby:

Take a look around and talk to the rest of Michiganders who have only 401k's to draw off from for retirement and have to pay the appropriate taxes on this money while auto workers with defined pensions and also the senators and reps who have pensions don't pay any tax on this income.  See the problem here people.  Bail out the auto workers so they can get a pension while the rest of the people have to pick up the tab! 

Maybe you should have tried to get one of those union jobs. I find that the people who usually bad mouth the auto worker or any union worker is usually out of jealousy. Jealous that either they were not capable of landing one of these jobs or not intelligent enough.

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