Michigan Votes Forum

 We've been working WAY TOO HARD for WAY TOO LONG to make adult helmet-choice a reality, let's get it done! Our biggest obsticle has been the insurance industry. We have the nations strongest and largest insurance lobby. How do you think Michigan was able to create no-fault? Not coincidentally, we also have the highest insurance rates in the country. What's the biggest knock against freedom? The ever tired "I don't want my rates to go up" arguement. Well, we already have the nations highest rates. There are 30 states that allow helmet-choice, including ALL of our neighboring states, who ALL pay less for insurance than we do. The rates in our neighboring states are about HALF of what ours are. To date, no state has ever raised their rates after allowing helmet-choice. More important, no state has ever LOWERED their rates after enacting a helmet law!

The simple truth is they will find a reason to raise rates whether this bill passes or not. Insurance is based on risk. The number of motorcycle registrations in any given state is 2-5% of all vehicles, a small minority. Within the last year or so, Michigan has passed laws banning texting while driving (which I fully support). The new "Super drunk" driving law. Which, if you don't know, is basically double the limit, double the trouble. I thought that "buzzed" driving was "drunk" driving. And most recently the "1st and 10" law which limits the number of passengers and hours a teenager can drive. This addresses the 3 highest "risk" groups, teenagers, texters and drunks. Which effect EVERYONE, not just 2-5%. If the passage of these laws is suppost to make us "safer" one would think that less risk would equal lower rates, right? Have your rates gone down? Of course not! In fact, the MCCA fee (which only Michigan has) went up from $125 per policy to $145 per policy. Why?! We now have laws making us "safer." Even though we STILL have a helmet law we STILL have the nations highest rates! ALL of our neighboring free states pay HALF of what we do. The fact is it has nothing to do with helmets (or lack there of) and everything to do with Michigan's insurance lobby.  If you want something to complain about, there it is!

Please vote for Freedom. Stop Government from taking away our inalienable rights.

 I agree! I'm so tired of the predictable "I don't want my insurance rates to go up" bullcrap arguement. Not even a safety issue but a money one. So we know exactly what the true priority is. To date, no state has ever raised their insurance rates after repealing their helmet law. More important, no state has ever LOWERED their rates after enacting a helmet law!

One would think that less risk would equal lower rates. Within the last year or so Michigan has passed several laws to make us "safer." We passed a law banning texting while driving (which I fully support). We passed the new "super drunk" driving law. (I thought buzzed driving WAS drunk driving). And most recently the "1st & 10" law limiting the number of passengers and hours a teenager can drive. Laws cracking down on the 3 highest risk groups, teens, texters and drunks. Have our insurance rates gone down since the passage of these new laws? Of course not! In fact, the MCCA portion of your insurance (which, by the way, only Michigan has) went up $20 this year from $125 per policy to $145 per policy. Why? We now have laws making us "safer." So if you need a reason to whine about insurance rates, there it is! We have a helmet law, we also have the highest insurance rates in the country. ALL of our neighboring states allow adult helmet choice and their rates are about HALF of what ours are. Helmets (or lack there of) have NOTHING to do with insurance rates. The fact that Michigan has the most powerful insurance lobby in the country has EVERYTHING to do with our high rates AND our helmet law! We have a common enemy. We should be fighting them, not each other.

Great stuff, Freerider. Moreover, the thing that makes the insurance lobby so strong is our unending flow of corrupt establishment politicians into the system. Identify yours and take action to get them replaced! Our politicians will pay attention first and foremost to whomever jeopardizes their job - period. It's not about who is right, it's about who butters their toast. If you really care about freedom, put freedom loving politicians in office to replace the establishment politicians. I'm not even talking partys here, folks, I'm just talking about the good old boy's club - politicians.

I'm glad to see my representative as a sponsor, but I'm still going to have to think really hard about replacing her - she supported the smoking ban - another affront to our God-given freedom. Whether you're a smoker or not, these politicians overstepped their bounds by calling my privately owned business a public place, even though I paid for it out of my pocket and I pay all the taxes on it! It's no different than my living room, yet the politicians believed that they had the authority to step in and dictate which legal activities I can and cannot allow. Patently absurd - our living rooms are next! The helmet law is no different - we don't need government to protect us from ourselves!

 Yesterday morning a 20-year-old man died in a police chase on I-96 near Fowlerville. He was clocked on his motorcycle going 130mph before he rear-ended a police cruiser. What the news report "conveniently" fails to mention is that the helmet he was FORCED to wear did nothing to prevent the accident or, in this case, the fatality. MARK MY WORDS if this law passes, the first time someone dies without wearing a helmet that will be the focal point of the story, GUARANTEED! It's so udderly predictable how the media sensationalizes everything and yet so many people don't see it.

This a tragedy. A young kid on a crotch-rocket seeing what his machine could do. Probably passed a cop, got scared, and thought he could avoid trouble by outrunning him. Since he was riding a croth-rocket one could assume that he was probably wearing a full-face helmet. I can't help but wonder if that gave him a false sense of security. If he were helmetless, perhaps he thinks twice about outrunning the cops. Perhaps.

Thoughts and prayers to him and his family.

I'm all for repealing the helmet law, as long as riders carry enough insurance, but your anecdotal story of this young man dying is hardly an argument either way. No sensible person would think a helmet would protect a motorcycle rider hitting anything at 130mph, full face or not. Your argument for repeal of the helmet law losses credibility with examples such as this.

 We DO carry enough insurance. In fact, we overpay! Highest rates in the nation, is that good enough? Of course no sensible person would expect anyone to survive such a high speed accident. But if he hadn't been wearing a helmet, that would be the focal point of the story. When Ben Roethlisberger had his accident little (if anything) was said about the woman who failed to yield the right-of-way, cut him off and CAUSED the accident. The focal point of that story was that he wasn't wearing a helmet, as if that somehow made the accident his fault. By the way, he played in 2 Superbowls since the accident. I guess he's fine.

I'm just trying to prepare anyone who cares to read these posts for the inevitable biased, oversensationalized media coverage that is sure to come if this bill passes. If there is a fatal car accident reported on the news, how can you tell if the driver WAS wearing a seat-belt? You will NEVER hear the word "seat-belt" mentioned in the story. If the driver was NOT wearing one, you can bet that that will be the focal point of the story. Whether it would have made a difference or not won't be reported, just that one wasn't worn.

So in anticipation of a non nonsensical argument against repeal of the helmet law, you use a non nonsensical argument. Funny.

Let us put the emotion and your false sense of you are ‘Rights’ being violated aside and look at the facts.  The National Highway and Transportation Association – NHTSA- publish the Fatal Accident Report – FAR- each year.  One category they track is fatal accidents involving motorcycles.  Several States went from no helmet laws back to mandatory helmet usage based on the FAR’s data.  When the mandatory helmet usage was enforced, the fatality rate, due to head injuries, for motorcycle accidents was 30% less.  Spin these facts anyway you want, but at the end of the day the fact is there were 30% fewer head injuries resulting in death.

From an insurance standpoint, everyone in the US who owns a motorcycle and insures it already pay to cover medical benefits for helmeted and helmet optional State accidents – the cost is spread across the country.  That takes the money issue off the table.

At was the fact portion of this comment.

Now the emotional portion of this comment.

If you feel you ‘Rights’ are being taken away as part of your freedom of choice and God forbid you have an accident not wearing your DOT helmet in defiance to the law, don’t expect me to pay when your drooling into a cup.  Life is full of choices and at that point, you made the wrong one.  Ask my friends widow who lost her husband when his Toy helmet flew off before his head smacked the ground when he had his accident.

If you do not like the helmet laws in Michigan – move to Ohio!

 Shoot

You had a very mature discussion (incorrect grammar aside) until your last sentence. Part of the beauty of our country and our state is that if we disagree with the laws, we simply follow the process to get them changed. That's what advocates for helmet law repeal are doing. You don't have to agree with their viewpoint, but they don't need to leave your state because you disagree with them.

So, two items for you in a manner which you should understand:

1) If you don't like the fact that we have the right to change laws - move to another country.

2) When the repeal passes, if you don't like that law - move to another state.

 Shoot;

That 30% you quote is a typical insurance company half-truth. The other half of the truth that always "conveniently" fails to be mentioned is that this increase is due to increased motorcycles on the road following modification of the law. Florida saw a motorcycle registration increase of 50% in their first year of freedom and an increase of 110% by year 5. Yes their total number of fatalities did increase but their fatality RATE, as in fatalities per 10,000 bikes registered, decreased after their law was repealed. Saying freedom of choice "causes" fatalities is like saying summer "causes" fatalities. I guarantee there will be more fatalities in July than there will be in January.

This has been the case in every state that modified their helmet law to allow adult choice. Conversely, every state that has enacted a helmet law has seen a major decrease in motorcycles registered. I lived in California from '91 to '94. On 1-1-92, their helmet law took effect. In '91, the local Harley dealership had some kind of event going on just about every weekend. By Christmas of '93 they had a "going out of business" clearance sale. It had nothing to do with the economy, the economy was great in the 90's! CA's restrictive helmet law killed their business. The former governor knows a few things about restrictive laws killing business!

Don't believe me, look it up.                www.sbumaui.org/helmet_law_facts.pdf

 Gypsy;

You're better than that. You're a bright guy, I would certainly hope that you know how the media sensationalizes everything. So why the need for sarcasim?

 Shoot;

This is a CLASSIC example of how helmet choice opponents misrepresent facts. No state has EVER seen a fatality RATE increase of 30% after a helmet law repeal. If that were true, then ALL states would have a helmet law. Just as all states have seat-belt laws, speed limits and laws against drunk driving. The fact that the majority of states (30) allow adult helmet choice should tell you something. You have to understand the difference between total number of fatalities and the fatality RATE. The fatality rate is measured by the number of fatalities per 10,000 bikes registered.

For example; Florida's last year of having a helmet law, there were 100 motorcycle fatalities. In their first year of freedom there were 130. Yes, that is a 30% increase. But the other half of the truth that is always "conveniently" left out of the equasion is that the number of bikes registered increased by 50% in that same year. So if there were 100 fatalities and 200,000 bikes registered the fatality RATE would be 5 per 10,000. Conversely, 130 fatalities out of 300,000 bikes registered gives you a fatality RATE of 4.3 per 10,000, slightly LOWER than when they had a mandatory helmet law. Even if these numbers were reversed, a difference of 0.7 is not enough to justify having the law.

EVERY STATE that has repealed it's helmet law has seen an increase in bikes registered. Just as EVERY STATE that has enacted a helmet law has seen a decrease in bikes registered. Fewer bikes registered = fewer accidents = fewer fatalities. That is what their goal TRUELY is. It has nothing to do with the effectiveness of helmets. Much like cold weather, it just makes riding less desirable. I guarantee there will be more motorcycle accidents in July than there will be in January. What next, are you going to try and tell me that SUMMER causes more accidents? That arguement would be just as ridiculous.

Don't believe me, look it up.   www.sbumaui.org/helmet_law_facts.pdf

Freerider, your argument has much better footing when standing on your freedom to choose than when trying to convince people it is safer to ride without a helmet than with.

 I never said it was "safer" to ride without a helmet. If this law passes the media will no doubt point out the fact that a rider wasn't wearing a helmet if that's the case and will fail to mention that a rider WAS wearing a helmet if that is the case in a fatal accident. That's all I was trying to point out. As for the safety issue, I believe the safety a helmet can provide is at best questionable. Motorcycling is dangerous whether you wear a helmet or not. Perhaps in low speed accidents a helmet can make a difference, but any accident over 35mph helmets are proven to be ineffective. D.O.T. approved helmets (which can be purchased at any motorcycle shop) are randomly tested at 14mph. They have a failure rate of 50%. The D.O.T. logo only certifies that the shell and liner are at the required thinkness. If helmets were as effective as people thought they were, every state would have a helmet law. Just as every state has a seat-belt law, speed limits and laws against drunk driving. The majority of states do not have mandatory helmet laws for all riders, that alone should tell you something.

Again not "safer" without one. All the evidence from the states with and without helmet laws suggest that there is no significant difference either way, contrary to public opinion.

 Happy Memorial Day!

This a day to remember all the brave soldiers who gave their lives so that we could live free in this wonderful country. God bless! But I also like to think of our forefathers and the price they paid. If not for them, America would've never been. Have you ever wondered what happened to the 56 men who signed the Declaration of Independence? Five signers were captured by the British as traitors and were tortured before they died. 12 had their homes ransacked and burned. Two lost their sons in the Revolutionary Army, another had two sons captured. Nine of the 56 fought and died from wounds or hardships of the Revolutionary War. They signed and pledged their lives, their fortunes and their honor. What kind of men were they? 24 were lawyers and jurists. 11 were merchants, nine were farmers and large plantation owners. Well educated men of means. And they signed the Declaration of Independence knowing full well that the penalty would be death if they were captured. Carter Braxton of Virginia, a wealthy planter and trader saw his ships swept from the seas by the British Navy. He sold his home and properties to pay his debts and died in rags as a free man. Thomas McKean was so hounded by the British that he was forced to move his family almost constantly. He served in the Congress without pay and his family was kept in hiding. His possessions were taken and he was left in poverty. His reward was independence for America! British soldiers looted the properties of Clymer, Ellery, Gwinnett, Hall, Heyward, Rutledge and Walton. At the Battle of Yorktown, Thomas Nelson Jr. noted that the British General Cornwallis had taken over the Nelson home for his headquarters; the owner quietly urged General George Washington to open fire, the home was destroyed and Nelson died bankrupt. Francis Lewis had his home and properties destroyed, the enemy jailed his wife and she died within a few months. John Hart was driven from his wife's bedside as she was dying, their 13 children fled for their lives, his fields and his grist mill were laid to waste. For more than a year he lived in the woods, returning home to find his wife dead and his children vanished. Weeks later he died of exhaustion. Norris and Livingston suffered similar fates.

Such were the stories and sacrifices of the American Revolution. These were not wild eyed, rabble rousing ruffians. They were soft spoken men of means and education. They had security, but valued liberty more! They pledged their support of this declaration of the divine providence, we mutually pledge to each other, our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor. They gave you and me a free and indepenendent America! The history books never told you a lot of what happened in the Revolutionary War. We didn't just fight the British, we were British subjects at that time and we fought our own government! Perhaps you can now see why our Founding Fathers had a hatred for standing armies, and allowed through the 2nd Amendment for everyone to have the right to keep and bear arms. I have no doubt that if they were alive today, they would enjoy the freedom that comes with riding a motorcycle. They would be absolutely appaulled, ashamed and embarrassed that some states still enforce mandatory helmet laws! And they would undoubtedly refuse to wear a helmet by a government mandate, no matter the cost to themselves. We should learn from them! They are likely rolling over in their graves because the liberty they fought so hard for and paid a very high price for, is slowly being taken away from us (and helmet laws are just the tip of the iceberg on this topic). Most of us just sit there and complain. Just like a frog in a pot of water that has been slowly heated to the boiling point. What will it take for you to stand up and fight for the freedom that is your heritage? Complaining doesn't cool the water, so when will you decide to jump out of the pot? Only you can decide if your freedom is worth fighting for. And if so, time to get of the couch and do something. Now is the time to write your legislators and Governor Snyder telling them you want this bill passed. There is also a Freedom Rally at the Capitol Bldg at noon on Wednesday, June 8th. Take the day off and be there. Make 2011 the year freedom FINALLY becomes a reality!

 Happy Memorial Day!

Today is a day to remember those who gave their lives for our FREEDOM! God Bless! These men died in vain if freedom doesn't exist! Let's make 2011 the year freedom FINALLY becomes a reality in Michigan! Now is the time to write your legislators and Governor Snyder telling them you want this bill passed. Also Wednseday, June 8th, at noon at the Capitol Bldg is our FREEDOM RALLY! Take the day off and be there. These men died for our freedom, the least you could do is take the day off for freedom. This year will be the most important year ever, so be there!

 Happy Memorial Day!

Today is a day to remember all the brave soldiers who died for our FREEDOM! God Bless! These brave men died in vain if freedom doesn't exist. Make 2011 the year freedom FINALLY becomes a reality in Michigan. Now's the time to write your legislators and Governor Snyder telling them you want this bill passed. Also plan to take Wednesday, June 8th, off and attend our FREEDOM RALLY at the Capitol Bldg at noon. Many brave men died for freedom, the least you can do is take a day off for freedom. Be there, let's make this year THE YEAR!

Why do you think some states have laws?  Who's pushing that agenda?  Is there a profit to be made out there from helmet laws?

 Both SB291 & HB4608 are in the there transportation committees. Hope they don't die there!

BarbaraBrown:

Why do you think some states have laws?  Who's pushing that agenda?  Is there a profit to be made out there from helmet laws?

 Well Barbara, there is a profit to be made from NOT having a helmet law. Every state that surrounds Michigan doesn't have a helmet law. Therefore out of state riders are not willing to come here to ride and enjoy our beautiful scenery. Plus those who live here plan their motorcycle based vacations out of state to avoid the law. Therefore we are being double-whammied on lost tourism revenue.

Who's pushing the agenda? AAA. It used to be the insurance industry as a whole, but AAA is really the only one still making noise. In 1966, the Feds blackmailed the states into passing mandatory helmet laws by witholding federal highway funds from states that did not comply. By 1969 every state, except California, passed a helmet law. Michigan was actually one of the last states to pass a helmet law. Ours took effect on 7-1-69. In 1975, President Ford repealed the Feds blackmail. By 1982, about half of the states repealed their laws, including every state surrounding Michigan. The reason Michigan didn't is because Michigan created the no-fault system in 1973, two years before the blackmail repeal. The passage of no-fault made Michigan's insurance lobby the most powerful in the country. And (not coincidentally) we also have the highest insurance rates in the country. It is my understanding that Governor Snyder is planning on doing insurance reform this summer. This MAY include the repeal of the MCCA and no-fault. I certainly hope that happens. ALL of our neighboring helmet-choice states are also at-fault states. Their rates are about HALF of what ours are!

 RECALL ROGER KAHN!!!

 Come on! Lets move this bill to the floor for a vote! The Senate has done it's job, now do yours!

 HELLO..................ANY NEW INFO?

 I would like to know if there is any new info on this as well.

www.airfilters.com

vintageroger:

 HELLO..................ANY NEW INFO?

 Unfortunately probably nothing until the fall :(

Check out abateofmichigan.org, they are pretty much the only ones fighting for YOUR rights. We need ALL the help we can get. We also don't want to give up too much info on this site because commies, like Senator Roger Kahn, will no doubt use it against us.

 ANOTHER WASTED SUMMER!!!

One more freedomless summer, one more summer of lost tourism revenue! I was really hoping summer '11 would be the summer of freedom. At the beginning of the year we were looking at July 1st being the first day of freedom. Which would have been nice since my vacation was the first 2 weeks of July. I was planning on spending that time in NW lower Michigan and then crossing the bridge and heading up to the U.P. But instead my wife and I, along with 3 other couples, went to Sheboygan, Wi. Stayed in a beautiful hotel on Lake Michigan and rode free every day. No head injuries or increased insurance rates were caused by this! We probably spent @  $10,000 between the 8 of us. Money that could have (and should have) been spent here! That may not seem like a lot, but it is considering thousands of others did the same thing over the course of the summer. Not to mention NOBODY from out of state came here! Not when EVERY surrounding state is a free state.

While there we ran into 4 guys from Guelph, Ont. They were REALLY intrested in the status of Michigan's helmet law. Since there is no freedom anywhere in Canada, Canadian bikers are chomping at the bit for Michigan to amend it's helmet law. Another group of people that want to spend money here that I never thought of. But it won't happen until this bill is passed into law. So please write your State Rep. and Gov. Snyder and urge them to support this bill. Let's make summer of '12 THE SUMMER!

 ANOTHER WASTED SUMMER :(

And I'm not getting any younger! One more freedomless summer, one more summer of lost tourism revenue. I spent my summer vacation in Sheboygan, Wi. Rode free and didn't die, get a head injury, or cause anyones insurance rates to go up! Could have (and should have) spent my money here. While there we ran into 4 guys from Guelph, Ont. According to them Canadian bikers are chomping at the bit for Michigan to amend it's helmet law since freedom is not allowed anywhere in Canada. Another group of people that want to spend their money here! Now is the time to write Gov. Snyder and your State Rep. and tell them you want this bill passed into law. Let's make summer of '12 THE SUMMER!

 :) FREEDOM RULES!!!