Michigan Votes Forum

 Today is a BIG day for democracy! However, this isn't our first trip to the Superbowl, it's our third. We've yet to win but hey, third time's a charm, right? I certainly hope so!

It's ALL about freedom! Everything else is irrelevant. James Madison, our fourth President and "Father of the Constitution" clearly stated that the roles of gov't are "Few and defined." That's why America is the greatest country on earth! American exceptionalism! There is nothing different in our DNA, we are made up of the worlds DNA. We are still a very young country, 235 years old. There are countries that have been around for milleniums that are light years behind us. The fundamental reason why, FREEDOM!!! That's what makes us unique. Yes, we are not the only free nation on earth, but our founding fathers principles are what paved the way not only for America, but the rest of the world! The further away we get from that, the less exceptional we become! I know that many non-riders do not understand why this issue is so important to us. And I also understand why it may not be important to them personally. But it is important to realize that when the gov't takes away your right to do something it is seldom ever given back. The 30 (hopefully soon 31) states that have relaxed their helmet laws and the repeal of prohibition in 1933 are the only examples I can even think of. Right restoration is almost non-existint! So even if you don't ride you can take comfort in the fact that the majority of those currently in our state gov't understand the importance of freedom! As long as we have that, our future is promising!

Governor Snyder I want to see SB-291 signed into law ASAP.  From my understanding if the SB-291 bill is passed it could bring in up to $3.2 billion in tourism the first year from out-of-state motorcyclists that would love to tour our state of Michigan.  These motorcyclists also don’t have helmet laws in they own states.  Why would we turn our backs on this type tourism in Michigan.     

“According to the National Center for Health Statistics, approximately 1.16% of total U.S. health costs are attributable to motor vehicle accidents.  And the costs associated with the treatment of motorcyclists injuries account for less than 0.001% of total U.S. health care costs.           Since 85% of motorcycle accidents are CAUSED by car drivers, they are only personally responsible for 15% of that less-than-0.001%. The majority of this cost is paid by privately purchased heath insurance.” 

I am a 58 year old man and have been road riding motorcycles for the pass 42 years.  I love riding motorcycles and would like to be able to decide for myself when and where I would wear a helmet.  I know that at a low speed accident the helmet may or may not save my life.  But, I also know that if a car hits me or if I’m on the highway, that the helmet isn’t going to do much good.  My wife and I have been doing a lot of riding in the states that let us have the choice.  We enjoy riding the open road and love being able to remove our helmets at the state line.  I also believe some of the new riders think having a helmet on their heads makes them feel invisible, a false feeling.   

I hope and pray that you see this as a great chance to get out-of-state motorcyclists to visit our great State of Michigan, and help our economy.          

I have to disagree with you - my husband was involved in a motorcycle accident and the helmet MOST CERTAINTLY saved him from extensive head injuries. So - YES, helmets will prevent injuries.......

 So glad that in our poor economy the only bills that seem to pass do NOTHING to create jobs. Hmm, let's see: price tag bill, light bulb bill, helmet law..... Nice to see our legislators hard at work, makes me so glad I'll be stuck paying for their health care and pensions the rest of my life..

Your missing the point...It's all about the FREEDOM to choose for yourself! 

It's what this Great Country stands for. Inalienable Right to freedom of choice!  

Freedom of choice - really? What about the laws requiring us to have auto insurance - shouldn't we be able to make up our own minds on that? What about seat belt laws - should we hope for their repeal also? Sometimes laws are in place to help us, not to take away our freedoms. With your way of thinking there wouldn't be any laws at all. After all - couldn't we make our own decisions about what we feel is right or wrong on everything?

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Yes, the seat belt laws should be repealed also. The seat belt law is a perfect example of poor government judgment. 

Instead of making it illegal to talk on a cell phone and text while driving, Government passes a seat belt law, spends millions of dollars on add campaigns 'Click it or Ticket'  so that when you get hit by a distracted driver you might live through it. Instead of going to the root of the problem (better driver education and stricter license renewal) they shut down a lot of the Secretary of State offices, discontinue periodical renewal tests and pass legislation to force everyone to wear seat belts.

Do you really want Government telling you how to live your life??? I mean saving your life???

 

That's why our Founding Fathers wrote the Constitution and Bill of Rights.  

 

 

 Our Constitution was put in place to limit the powers of gov't. Unfortunately since President Wilson, many in gov't see our Constitution as obstructionary, including the current White House occupant! This has been going on for so long many have become complacent and willingly give up their liberties in the name of "safety." The price of freedom is eternal vigilance! The seat-belt law came to be in 1985. The fed gov't violated the 10th Amendment (which protects states rights) by blackmailing states into passing seat-belt laws or be punished by not receiving federal highway money (which the states pay to the fed). It overwhelmingly passed in the congress making it impossible for President Reagan to veto. Not suprisingly, all 50 passed seat-belt laws.

The same thing happened in 1967 for helmet mandates. By 1969, 49 states had helmet laws. The one exception, California. Their state gov't passed a bill that was vetoed by then Governor Ronald Reagan. In 1974, Illinois' State Supreme Court found the law to be unconstitutional as it is in violation of the 10th and 14th Amendments. Their law was declared "null and void." IL still allows freedom today! One of the more conservative justices was quoted as saying; "If we start legislating everything just becomes it seems like it may be a good idea, we start to climb a very slippery slope. If we mandate helmets today, where does it end? Will we one day have mandatory seat-belt laws?" In 1974 a seat-belt law seemed ridiculous. In 1985 it happened! Once upon a time the idea of banning smoking in bars seemed ridiculous. But May 1st marks the 2-year anniversary of the ban. When that happened a lot of people I know said; "What next, a cheesburger ban?" Think it CAN'T happen? NY has already banned table salt in it's restaurants. A cheesburger ban seems as absurd today as mandatory seat-belts did in 1974. But we know how that turned out!

As a result of Illinois' State Supreme Court ruling, President Ford lifted the federal highway money ban in 1975. Today 30 states (hopefully soon 31) currently allow adult helmet choice. Michigan was actually one of the last states to enact a helmet law back then. ALL of our border states repealed their laws between '76 and '78. Michigan probably would have too if not for the passage of no-fault in 1973, two years before President Ford lifted the ban.

I do believe that some laws are enacted to protect us all. You might have the highest regard for everyone else - but that isn't the case in many circumstances. Driving is a privilege - and can be revoked. It is not a right protected by the constitution or the bill of rights - you are only issued a driver's license after you have passed certain tests and met criteria. Should we not have any type of restrictions for granting people the driving privilege? I guess that means if someone feels they have the "right" to drink and drive that would be okay? Our prisons are filled with people who felt their "rights" were more important than someone elses......

Great commentary. Well said!

 The Constitution says that we are indowd by our creator, not by our gov't. I think you are confused by what  a "right" is. Our Constitution grants each and every one of us the right to "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness." In a nutshell that means you have the right to do whatever you want as long as you do not harm other people or destroy their property. Drinking and texting while driving put other people at risk, therefore you do not have the right to do that. Not wearing a helmet or seat-belt does not put others at risk. Therefore you should have the right to do that. As far as "driving is a privilege, not a right" is concerned, they've been using that mantra since the 70's. We are a free nation, therefore we have rights. Privileges are granted to those in communist nations, under special circumstances, that requires their govt's approval. If you break the law, you lose your freedom by going to jail. If you violate certain driving laws, you lose your RIGHT to drive. You also have the right to pursue any profession you may choose. In many cases that also means passing certain tests and meeting certain criteria.

mtrctylarry:

Great commentary. Well said!

Thanx!

 

 

Well said. Did albaby change her name to lybilly?? Just wonderin....... Seems a little coincidental. I'm no conspiracy theorist, but one stopped messaging after a lengthy rant rebutting the sampling population of this forum, then suddenly we have someone that speaks in very similar tone using very similar verbage under a new name. The world shall never know.

 I actually do know a little about the constitution and I do know that driving is not a "right" granted by it. It is a privilege and you can be granted the privilege ONLY AFTER passing an exam, roadtest, and other criteria. You can also lose the privilege if you break the rules or laws. Generally, a right is something you have by birth (the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; the right to vote) and which cannot be taken away from you, while a privilege is something granted to you by a civil authority, and which theoretically can be taken away. A Driver's License is granted - your rights are NOT. So there is a huge difference. As for pursuing a profession - yes you may pursue any profession (that is a right), but if you want to become a doctor and can't pass the exam for a medical license, guess what - you don't get the privilege of becoming one. So the pursuit is a right the result would be a privilege. My point about drinking and driving is that someone might believe they can drink and drive and who is the state to tell them they can't? You think they might be a danger - but they don't. 

Our current lawmakers could care less about our rights - they are only pushing this through because they finally have a governor who will sign it (If he gets whatever he wants in exchange).

Helmet laws do protect me - even if I don't ride a motorcycle, just like seatbelt laws protect everyone. They protect us from having to take care of people who might otherwise become incapacitated

Yup..............same person.

 Sorry - not certain who you are talking about? I'm not allbaby - my login name is lybilly.......

 Perhaps this means that any responses for the repeal are made by the same person? Can also be very coincidental.........but glad there was someone else on this board who happens to like to voice their OWN opinion. I don't believe I was ranting - but think as you like.

Just trying to have an intelligent discussion.

 BTW - in case you think I disappeared, I will not have access to a computer until tomorrow. Wouldn't want you to miss me, unless perhaps you just like to read opinions the same as your own

 Good use of company time. I'm sure your boss appreciates it.

lybilly:

They protect us from having to take care of people who might otherwise become incapacitated

 

 

Missing the point completely. It's not the govt's job to protect us from ourselves. It's the govt's job to fix roads, build schools, provide police, firemen and national defense.

"Those who are willing to give up their liberties in exchange for security deserve to have neither."

Benjamin Franklin, 1776

 Facts about Michigan's mandatory helmet law;

 

FACT- According to testimony from the "Insurance Institute of Michigan" there WILL NOT be an increase in insurance rates with the modification of Michigan's helmet law. We already have the nations highest rates! Therefore EVERY free state pays less for insurance than we do.

FACT- Fatality rates for motorcyclists are slightly higher in helmet states than in free states.

FACT- NO STATE has ever raised their insurance rates after modifying their helmet law for adult choice. More important, NO STATE has ever LOWERED their insurance rates after enacting a mandatory helmet law.

FACT- Every Great Lakes State has modified their helmet law for adult choice EXCEPT Michigan. We ARE losing tourist dollar$ as a result.

FACT- Helmets do little, if anything, to prevent closed head injuries.

FACT- Motorcyclists DO pay into Michigan's "Catastrophic Claims Fund" bicyclists and pedestrians DO NOT. Yet their injuries account for 20% of the fund.

FACT- Motorcyclists are more likely to be insured than car drivers.

FACT- Car drivers are responsible for 85% of motorcycle accidents.

FACT- Car driver awareness of motorcyclists, motorcycle rider training, and stricter enforcement of cycle endorsements are PROVEN methods of reducing fatalities and injuries to save lives and reduce insurance costs.

FACT- You can have differing opinions, but you can't argue facts! The Red Wings did win the Stanley Cup in 2008. That cannot be argued, even if you're a Penguins fan. 

 

 

Motorcycles are less stable and less visible than cars and often have high performance capabilities. When motorcycles crash, their riders lack the protection of an enclosed vehicle, so they're more likely to be injured or killed. The federal government estimates that per mile traveled in 2009, the number of deaths on motorcycles was about 25 times the number in cars.  1

Because serious head injury is common among fatally injured motorcyclists, helmet use is important. Helmets are about 37 percent effective in preventing motorcycle deaths and about 67 percent effective in preventing brain injuries.  Yet only 20 states and the District of Columbia mandate helmet use by all riders. 

You said helmets are not effective in preventing closed head injuries? Got a link yo your info?

 I work nights - thus have access to the computer during the daytime hours - but thanks for being concerned about my company!

So, I guess that means the government should disband our military - why should they protect us? You can't just pick and choose what "liberties" you would like to have protected. Either we can live in a totally free society like you are suggesting, where there are no laws to govern us (since we are all adults and are fully capable of discerning right from wrong). Or we can live in a society where there are laws that actually do provide citizens with some form of protection.

Which argument do you want to debate. You keep switching. Is fatality your issue, or injury. As far as fatality goes, it has been well published that helmets do not decrease rider fatality rates. As far as injury goes., your argument was previously about insurance costs... now you seem focused on the fact that helmets may prevent injury. Notice I say may. Yes, helmets may prevent injury to the head. However, helmets will not prevent an accident... matter of fact a rider is more likely to be involved in an accident when wearing a helmet vs not. I quick google search will also show this. Riders are most often injured by multiple blunt trauma... not a head injury alone. Take it from someone who has experienced it. If your body strikes an object at speed, a helmet will not save you from anything. Injuries are not constricted to the head. 40% of motorcycle accidents happen to riders who are either not endorsed, or have not been properly trained. It seems it would be in our best interest as a state to enhance rider training and safety rather than force helmets which there is not any proven statistics showing their benefit. Notice again, i say proven. Yes there are stats out there from insurance companies and other sources that have a slanted interest. All of which have been thoroughly debunked. There are far more head injuries and claims in car accidents, we don't want the state to force helmets on auto drivers, or motorcycles. No one is saying someone can't wear a helmet if they choose to. I know I am safer without one. With my ears blocked, peripheral vision impaired, wind pulling at neck, fatigue, and heat I am much more susceptible to an accident than with my head free from obstruction listening, and seeing clearly. I know this from experience... I've ridden many years. This is how I am the safest. Not saying its the same for everyone. What I am saying is that since this is the way I know I am the safest, it should be my choice to be able to ride how I feel safe and comfortable. I wouldn't expect a person who hasnt ridden much to understand. That's why I say, Let those who ride decide.

I encourage anyone opposed to rider choice to do the following: Go to your local motorcycle shop. Grab a full face helmet and put it on. Walk around the shop for 30 minutes without lifting the shield or removing the helmet. Report back how many collisions you had with shelving due to the fact you couldn't see or hear properly. Now imagine trying to operate a motorcycle under the same constraints or worse. Add 90 degree and traffic and you might begin to wonder how anyone operating a motorcycle under these conditions avoids an accident at all. Rider safety comes from proper training, and experience. No other factor will outweigh the affects of these two things. Helmets to not enhance rider safety, but detract from it.

While I think this is an excellent way to actually put yourself in a rider's shoes (if you don't happen to ride), I also encourage anyone who is thinking about riding without a helmet to go to a brain trauma center and work with people who have been injured due to not wearing a helmet in a motorcycle crash. Please look at both sides of the debate.

I am very aware that brain injuries may result from motorcycle accidents. However, the key to lessening trauma patients is to prevent the accident. Helmets do not prevent the accident. Multiple traumas are the number one cause of death among riders. Very seldom is an injury solely to the head. Helmets may prevent head injury, however helmets promote overall injury by increasing the likelihood of an accident. The helmet alone increases the chances of a rider being shipped to the ER rather than not. I continue to look at both sides. I have lived in both helmet free and helmet states. I have been involved in motorcycle accidents. I would say I am well versed on this subject. I encourage you to look at the larger picture. If your goal is to prevent injury and death, your best plan of attack would be rider defensive training. Preventing the accident will protect riders, not forcing them to wear a helmet.

...Better automobile driver training would have a much larger impact as well. I can't even begin to express the number of accidents caused by auto drivers failing to yield the right of way to a motorcycle. These are the issues. Helmets are the patsy.

 Right, and don't forget, loud pipes save lives, too!. That is a cry of bikers. Can you present any "documentable" facts on how many lives loud pipes have saved?

 Again, Dave-back up your opinions with facts from a reputable source. What is this motherhood stuff about "preventing accidents will protect riders"?  I guess you could use that as an excuse not to wear seatbelts or remove the airbags from and eliminate crash standards for cars? Preventing accidents would protect the drivers and passengers in them too!

Albaby2- You don't know how to debate. You argue one point, then when rebutted change the subject. I will gladly debate you but first I need to know what it is you would like to debate. A. Fatality Rates B. Injury Rates C. Insurance Cost D. Obama E. Bikers F. ER's Again, please choose only one at a time. I am a little dimwitted, and I don't want to get confused by attempting to argue more than one point at a time. We can definitely argue each one consecutively if you like.

 I would like to debate all of those. They cannot be separated. Sorry if that cofuses you, but you can start where you want. And give credible links. Maybe you could start with documenting how loud pipes save lives.

Albaby- Perhaps someone else will attempt to debate you then.... a debate has to have a subject. Follow lybilly's lead if you would like to intelligently join in. I'm not interested in wasting my time attempting to make you understand... you have the right to believe what you want. Whether I present you facts or not, your argument will remain the same. If i show you that fatality rates are not increased, you will rebut with insurance costs for injured. If i show you that there is no cost to be incurred by you, you will rebut with visit an ER or some other nonsense. We have already done all of this. You'll never believe any data I present no matter how valid, and I intern will likely not believe anything that comes from you. That's just the way it is. I encourage you to support whatever you feel is right for other people. Additionaly, I dont know when loud pipes came into the thread. You really only discredit yourself with comments like that. I think it's a little late to redeem yourself though so please feel free to throw out whatever strange off subject rants you would like. They will likely be ignored, well by me at least.

 You haven't presented any "facts" or data from reliable sources yet. Just opinions.  I see you regard facts as "rants" when you can't dispute them. Trying to discredit me won't change the facts-as inconvenient as you may find them to be..

albaby2:

Motorcycles are less stable and less visible than cars and often have high performance capabilities. When motorcycles crash, their riders lack the protection of an enclosed vehicle, so they're more likely to be injured or killed.

 

Nobody is disputing that. They are less visible. 85% of motorcycle accidents are caused by the car driver "not seeing them." That's why I have always been an advocate for motorcycle awareness. "Look twice, save a life. Motorcycles are EVERYWHERE." When compairing the number of accidents per number of bikes on the road in MI, OH, IN, IL, WI and MN, they are virtually the same. We are the only one with a mandatory helmet law by the way. OH and IL had more accidents, also more bikes registered (riders). IN and MN had fewer accidents, also fewer riders. Their accident/fatality rates (as in per rider) were virtually the same as ours. The one exception was WI. They are 2nd only to IL in total number of riders and have the lowest accident/fatality rate. The reason why is because WI is the gold standard for car driver awareness. We've all seen the PSA's for "Click it or ticket" and "You drink, you drive, you lose" but you almost never see one for motorcycle awareness. In WI you do. Maybe it's time we do that here.

So when does it take effect? 

Now today 4/13 2012 you can ride your motorcycle need $20,000 med benefit min. per rider.

What does the $20,000 medical mean? A seperate policy over and above your current ( BCBS or HAP) health insurance?

 

@ 8:00pm yesterday!