Michigan Votes Forum

Common Sense - you briefly mentioned "no child left behind" in your own words enraged are we to think that education is not about the children and only about the MEA seems to be after the amount of money spent on a recent political campaign which did not gain ground. Education would be better off without the MEA and a Right to Work Statue or lets say a Right to Teach Statue.

 

Unions are for unions may be true for some unions, but my experience and long knowledge of working conditions both today and in the past illustrate that unions were formed and continue to operate as a balance to corporate greed.  Big corporations set the rules and have a long history of exploitation of workers, unsafe working conditions, selling off assets including accrued pension benefits.  Need I go on.  The attack against unions today is to assure the rich retain all of the power in the US.  It has nothing to do with perserving "rights" of those who sell their labor vs. those who suck off profits but do no work at all.  The real goal is to get the workers of American to fight among themselves so those who have money and the wantabes can get more.  Look at the gap between the upper 1% or even 10% and the median income and then tell me who has the power to buy the State and the Nation.  It is not the unions.

I recall when unions first represented education workers.  It had much to do with working conditions and nothing to do with making big bucks to control the political climate.  Specificallly the attack on the MEA and schools and teachers in Michigan has been a long battle starting with vouchers to go to private schools.  Well known supporters, at least well known in Lansing, of private schools want to tax dollars to line their pockets and the pockets of their "friends."  The battle continues today, but today it is not to improve education of our children or nation, it is all about getting and retaining power.  MEA is what is best for education but not for those who want all of the power.  You, nor the state legislature has any interest in good education or an educated population.  Public educators and their associations do have as their single goal educating everyone.

Corporations whether schools or manufacturing have human resource departments and armies of lawyers.  These are paid officials that represent corporations.  Should the workers have less?  Unions balance the paid officials that are not looking for the best interest of workers, safe working conditions and many other working situations.  Without unions we would still have child labor, dangerous working conditions (we still have these), no middle class, education for the "privileged" few. 

"Right to work" for less is another lie being told by those who want to have and keep the power.  There is no evidence the a RTW state is more proserous, has less unemployment, and as for education they are at the bottom of the list.   

Michigan - MEA has a 28 page manual which instructs its members to use students as propaganda for contract negotiations. The MEA bows to the Saul Alinsky "Rules for Radicals". This is why Public Unions are not wanted in the United States. http://www.theblaze.com/stories/revealed-michigan-union-manual-instructing-teachers-on-how-to-use-children-as-propoganda/

Common cents - since you were around since the beginning of time. you have said we still have un-safe working conditions where is this might i ask ? I'd like to know and how do know that the right to work is a lie , the only truth is if it isnt accepted when proposed our business will be moving the short distance to IN, michigan cannot afford to not pass this legislation.

common cents - and a little bit of info without business owners there wont be any jobs. no business to tax to pay your salaries. no union has ever created a job. Snyder has forced the union to create a job by hiring their own dues collectors. so maybe they will increase your dues to pay that persons middle class collectively bargained for wage.

right to do business -   Many people in business do not create jobs.  Many self employeed people do not create jobs although some do.  Unions do create jobs.  There are business owners that do hire people and have signed contracts with workers.  There are many people who work under a contract.  A balance of power and both sides agree to the conditions.  There are businesses that can be trusted to be fair with the hired help and those that can not be trusted.   If I read you right business owners should reap all benefits, financial or otherwise, and workers who make the product or give the service and are not owners get whatever they get. 

The issue is really a political issue and not a union problem.  Its all about who will control the money.  Perhaps you own or work for a business that is ethical and honest.  If so I applaude you. 

 Synder made his money by shipping jobs over seas and selling businesses, not creating jobs.  The Republicans and Snyder have only gone after the MEA and said dues could not be collected through payroll deductions not all unions.  The war against the education organizations is political so that private individuals can get their hands in the public feeding and make a profit out of the tax dollar. 

 Right to do...  Mining is a recent nationally broadcasted incident.  In this case only miners lives were lost.  I have been to many factories in Michigan where the air quality was toxic.  Check the "accident" reports.  I have seen unguarded machinery, use of toxic chemicals without proper ventilation. 

Right to work is a lie because it is not a right to work.  As often stated it is a right to work for less.  I have lived in Indiana and if that is the kind of environment that is best for your business then that is where you should be.  Sounds like you are looking for cheap labor. It is not the best environment (use this word in its broadest sense) for all businesses. 

 Checked out your reference web site, a conservative newspaper that has a reputation for half truths and lies.  Referenced document was not available.  Don't know what you are referring to when children are used for propoganda.  I assume the word "propoganda" is used for emotional effects.  But I guess if a child repeated that there were no books available for their classroom you would call it propoganda and I would call it the truth.  If a child said their classroom had too many students in it you would call it propoganda and I would call it the truth.

 As an independent it is clear that  both the left and especially the right twist the truth.  Your use of the word "wallets" shows what is important to you.  what is good for the country is second.

“Socialism is a system where the government directly owns and manages businesses. Corporatism is a system where businesses are nominally in private hands, but are in fact controlled by the government. In a corporatist state, government officials often act in collusion with their favored business interests to design policies that give those interests a monopoly position, to the detriment of both competitors and consumers.” Even a liberal should be able to understand this video on "The Bankrupting of America": http://www.bankruptingamerica.org/2010/04/20/new-video-is-washington-bankrupting-america/ ........and the 14 characteristics of Fascism: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVVa1IvHdKc We the People: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVAhr4hZDJE

Take you Union and pound it in a rat hole! http://mrctv.org/node/111323#comment-476755240

common cense - thanks for the applause , and the separation from confused politicians. A mission to restore this state is possible it will take the Private business , the non - union worker and the union worker to get our state back routine legislation in any case is not the answer. Private Business needs the Right to Work Statue to stay alive, and stay competitive. Terms such as cheap,greedy,rich are small statements Without a business owner there is no place to work. so any union would not have the ability to create job. and you did not read me right you could not comprehend why I started my own business.

so your an independant - well Ross perot isnt running again ? do you commoncense stand for what a true independant is because I am an American, and Proud. Semper Fi

  RTDB - Your message is a little confusing, but I think you are a business owner and hire people to work for you.  You want the RTW, so what it will do for you or your business vs. not having the RTW?  Please be specific so there is not a misunderstanding about what is being said.   I too am a business owner and can make honest contracts that benefit me as well as those who work for me.  Work is available where there is a demand.  Guilds represented groups of people with skilled workers before there were corporations that wanted special conditions that benefitted one side.  If I understand your position private business can not be competitve unless they can get cheap labor without or limited other benefits.

Sad and Pathetic but Union teachers are a lost cause : http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/04/06/chicago-teachers-unions-juan-williams-a-noted-republican

The real lost cause is Republicans that spread lies about teachers and education.   When tatersalad spends a week in the classroom of an intercity school he can share with us how easy the work is and how over paid he is.  I think freshman English would be a good place for TS since he apparently has the basics, speaking English.  Of course, when union officials make as much as the mouth pieces for corporations perhaps there will be a reason to complain.  That day is a long way off.   This is the rhetoric of Republicans that repeat lies to convince the public that something is wrong so that it can be privatized and the wages lowered of the workers to reap a profit at the tax payers expense.  Are your streets and roads better?  Privatized in many places. 

Overpaid is the actual term to be used here: http://www.unionfacts.com/unions/

Since 1970, total state, local, and federal spending for elementary and secondary education has more than doubled. In 2008, the last year for which data for all levels of government is available, public expenditures were more than $500 billion for elementary and secondary education, with spending per pupil passing the $11,000 mark; 3. Despite large and consistent increases in funding, students’ scores on national assessments have improved little since 1970. 4. Graduation rates are also relatively unaffected by increases in funding, hovering around 75 percent since the 1990s. 5. The United States spends thousands of dollars more per student for secondary education than many other countries, but still lags behind in international assessments for mathematics, reading, and science. Nationwide Testing Shows Little Improvement Despite More Spending Measuring long-term data from the National Assessment of Educational Progress against public spending per pupil shows that students’ scores on these tests in reading and mathematics in three separate age groups (9-, 13-, and 17-year-old students) have seen little progress even as spending on a per student basis has more than doubled. Alarmingly, in the case of the 17-year-old students, scores in mathematics and reading are almost unchanged from the early 1970’s SBC White Paper On Education In America: It's Not About T

The "wants & needs" of Unions: http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/27825

Be careful of how you interpret the evaluation of cost and results of education spending.  Inflation since 1970 means that $100 in 1970 has the buying power of $586.76 today, or that you need more than 5 times as much income to have the same purchase power.  If spending on education has only doubled since 1970 that means spending on education is falling behind and more money needs to be spent to provide the same level of funding.

Research shows that education outcome in terms of level of education and dropout rate is related directly to the socioeconomic level of the student/family.  Since 1970 the gap between the upper 1/5 income bracket and the lowest 1/5 income has widened dramatically.  The wages of the typical American hardly increased in the three past decades considering inflation.  In the 2002, they actually dropped. According to the Census Bureau, in 2007 a male worker earning the median male wage (that is in the middle, with as many men earning more than he did as earning less) took home just over $45,000.  Considering inflation, this was less than the typical male worker earned thirty years before.

It’s also important to remember that almost all of the growth in incomes over the last 30 years has gone to the top 1%, and its income has grown by 2.5 times. Almost half of the growth in the top 1% has gone to the top .1% over the last 30 years.

Where do you think the rich send their children to school?  Snyder pays over $20,000 a year in tuition to an exclusive school for his daughter.    You probably can’t send you children there because they only take the high achievers. Note that jercom said we spend $11,000 student.

Public schools must educate all students who attend, regardless of learning disabilities, emotional problems and other special needs.  The most capable students will achieve at a high level, but challenged students will not likely ever reach the same high level of achievement regardless of type of education provided.  When public school can select only the best, most capapble students and have $20,000 available to spend on each student the results will be higher.

You must also look at the results of most charter schools, the Republicans answer to public schools.  (charter schools = lower wages, less oversight and fewer regulations)  The results are the same as traditional schools, some better, some much worse, and others about the same results.  It the profit that can be made if the private sector can get their hands on the tax dollars that is the reason for the trashing public education.

 

That report is from the United States Senate Budget Committee. Tell them to be careful what they report. You and your liberal friends will always scream for more money for education, and the reason is obvious. If you ever did say schools got enough, you would get cut off. We in the private sector have had enough of this. It’s time for teachers especially in the MEA, to PAY THEIR FAIR SHARE. Sound familiar? “Money does not necessarily correlate with student achievement… in this country in the last 30 years, we have more than doubled the amount of money we are spending per child… and the results have gotten worse, not better.” – Michelle Rhee, former D.C. Public Schools Chancellor, February 9, 2011 http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CC8QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fbudget.senate.gov%2Frepublican%2Fpublic%2Findex.cfm%2Ffiles%2Fserve%3FFile_id%3Da7b9e4c8-838c-475f-b54b-88aeb94a94f7%26SK%3DC16D209AFC051636325D2F239CB1A295&ei=zI2BT_iOD9GJtwewsJWyBg&usg=AFQjCNEZWGekmwmXQPg73zX08UhM4n5YcQ&cad=rja

 So we are to believe jercom over the US Senate Budget Committee?  What makes you think I am liberal because I disagree with your twisted tale?  I do the research rather than swallow the BS people like you use to make the public believe the "house is on fire."  The message  you send is a deliberate method to create a witch hunt against teachers and education so that you and your right wingers can get the tax dollars back in your pocket in the way of profit.

Doubled in a time when inflation went up more than 5 times????   Are the results worse because the DC school chancellor says so???  Given the amount of learning children have to accomplish today compared to 30 years ago is huge. But obviously you are unaware of that the level of education required today is higher. 

Teachers in this state pay more than their fair share.  In the past they have requested benefits instead of wage increases.  That was OK with everyone until the wingers realized health care costs were going up faster than inflation and most of corporations had eliminated pension plans.  Corporations bought up other companies and swallowed the pension plans.  That is your heart burn today.  Rather than repeat LOUDER, what do you think their FAIR SHARE should be?  Or do you even know what their wages are per hours worked?  Do you know what they pay for insurance and retirement today??  Obviously not.

All contracts are agreed to by both parties.  Your heart burn with the MEA is that they do not usually contribute to the Republican party. 

 Very well said, commoncents99.  Factual, logical, and eloquently espressed without descending to the level of name-calling, threats, and promises of doom where these creatures live.  I also admire your use of grammer, capitalization, spelling, punctuaton, and proper sentence structure; something these republicans sorely lack.  No, that's not an error, as I no longer consider the word "republicans" to be a proper noun, but rather it's an unflattering adjective which does not require capitalization.

Some of the rantings that these people spew are so poorly written that they are practically unintelligible, not to mention full of lies, half-thuths, exaggerations, and name-calling that they discourage any chance of intelligent discussion of the issues at hand.  So, please know that there are some who appreciate your patience and your effort to present an intelligent arguement.  Not that they are going to actually allow the truth to cloud their decision-making process.      

Commoncents99? You need to change that to noncents100. You do the research? Please show me where you get your research. From books like Rules for Radicals? I want my tax dollars back in my pocket in the way of profit? What an idiotic statement. Those tax dollars were mine to begin with, they came out of my pocket. Given the amount of learning children have to accomplish today compared to 30 years ago is huge? But obviously you are unaware of that the level of education required today is higher? I have a copy of an eighth grade test that was given in the 1930’s, and I highly doubt you could pass it, let alone an eighth grade student in today’s public schools. There are no multiple choice questions on a real test. Teachers in this State pay more than their fair share? That is an outright lie. They are the most overpaid and underworked so called public servants out there. Do I even know what their wages are per hours worked? Yes I do. They are required to teach 1099 hours per year. That’s it. Do the math if you can. With summer off, a week for spring break, a week for Christmas season, etc, etc, they barely put in half the time per year as other professionals do. And what other professional gets lifetime healthcare benefits? And can retire when they are 55? And gets a $30,000+ guaranteed pension written in the Michigan Constitution with a 3% per year increase for inflation? You are correct with one statement. The thieves at the MEA do not contribute to the Republican Party.

"Forced Political Contributions by Union members: http://romanticpoet.wordpress.com/2012/04/09/oversight-launches-protectingourworkers-com/

 Dear jerc om, You are totally out of the loop when it comes to the difference between the 8th grade today and 1930's.  But the details are complicated and perhaps beyond the understanding of many who have swallowed the rhetoric.  Your math is also based on faulty information.  Students are required to be in school 1099 hours per year.  Like many professionals teachers work far more hours than you have indicated.  Their work is not like those who are on a time clock and are finished at the end of the day.  When do you think papers are graded?  When the teacher is in the front of a class or helping individual students?  No.  You may find them in a business that has wifi so they can access an electronic grade books while they grading students' papers, email parents, and other work that requires the internet for assistance.  You may find them in the school buildings long into the evening unless it gets too cold because the heat is turned off at 3:30.  They may be using skype at home to hold a work session with students who need extra help.  They may be at the public library holding free tutoring sessions.  I suggest you go to your local school and learn the truth of the work load and the length of time it takes to provide the services students receive in the classroom.  You may have to talk with a few of them to get as broad a picture as you paint.

During their so called vacation time they are writing exams, preparing new lesson plans, researching the latest information on learning or their subject matter.  They are also required by law to continue to take classes at their own expense to keep their license to teach.

Pensions are based on the time years worked and the level of wages, that is true for all school employees.  There is no guarantee of $30,000 plus and some teachers receive 3% increases because they pay for them over the years they work.

Perhaps you can understand why the association that represents some teachers and other school employees would not support a party that spews the type of poison and misinformation that is being spread by you and many others like you. 

We all pay taxes and we all benefit from taxes, you included.  We don't necessarily like the way some of the tax money is spent.  But I am sure your doctor was educated with tax dollars and you benefit from that money spent.  I am sure you drive on roads that are built and maintained with tax dollars, perhaps occasionally fly on an airplane from an airport subsidized with tax dollars.  I hope you are willing to forgo all services provided with tax dollars.  Then you may have reason to complain.

 jercom stated: "Do I even know what their wages are per hours worked? Yes I do."

No, sir, you don't. You may know what one teacher makes.  You may even know what a few teachers make.  It's highly doubtful that you know what every teacher in your district makes and close to impossible for you to know what every teacher in the state makes.  That makes you, sir, a liar.

Secondly, the Michigan Department of Education requires,  "beginning in 2012-2013, each district shall provide the minimum 170 days or the number of days of pupil instruction provided by the district in 2009-2010 whichever is greater and 1,098 hours of pupil instruction."  Do you want us to believe that teachers are only required to work the number of hours that equals the student's minimum number of instructional hours??  This is Michigan and every school district schedules additional hours of instruction to allow for snow days.  But more importantly, teachers are required to spend additional hours every day attending to the requirements and responsibilities of their job that fall outside the required "instructional hours" but are nonetheless, required.  Therefore, you are ignorant of the facts contained in your own argument, but still you hope nobody will notice and we'll all believe your lies and misrepresentations.  Sorry to disappoint.

By the way, I'm not, nor have I ever been a teacher or other "so called" public servant.  I quit school and worked full-time since I was 16.  I finished high school at night and received my diploma and attended college at night, all while working full time in the public sector.  I retired at age 54, I receive a guaranteed pension (close but not quite $30k), and have healthcare benefits.  Everyone, including teachers, who work full time for 30 or more years should be able to retire, regardless of their age, and receive a small pension and benefits.  If you, jercom, won't receive these benefits after that many years of work, well, I guess you should have made better decisions when you started out.  If you do (or will) receive these benefits, I don't understand your selfishness in denying those same benefits to people in similar situations.   And let's face it, it's not that easy to live on $30k a year.

   

 When corporations stop contributing to political parties I am sure unions will also.  The companies I have worked for have contributed far more money than any union.  Investors are not asked whether corporate money can be spent on political contributions.  Check out the $$$$. 

Unions were formed to balance the power of corporations that otherwise were unwilling to treat groups of workers fairly and provide a safe working condition.  But we have had this conversation before. 

I checked out your quote  and found that the oversight committee is chaired by republican Darrell Issa.  I am sure he wants to curtail unions ability to contribute so there is less money going to the Democratic Party.  He is the same guy that wants no women on his committee.  Didn't bother to check out the others on his committees.  But we all know the bias here.

"A Capitol Hill hearing that was supposed to be about religious freedom and a mandate that health insurers cover contraception in the United States began as an argument about whether Democrats could add a woman to the all-male panel.

“Where are the women?” the minority Rep. Carolyn Maloney, D-N.Y., asked early in the hearing.

She criticized the Republican committee chairman, Rep. Darrel Issa, for wanting to “roll back the fundamental rights of women to a time when the government thought what happens in the bedroom is their business.”"

Of the top 20 donors to political parties, 12 are unions, and of course they all donate to Democrats. Number one donor is ActBlue, which in reality is the Democrat Party. "As a federally registered political action committee, it serves as a conduit for online contributions to Democratic candidates and committees”. http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php

The last sentence of your pathetic whining says it all.

Ban or severely restrict government unions which are nothing but an extension of the Democratic Party.

 

 

Federal judge rules against Unions and rightfully so! ............... http://www.westernjournalism.com/federal-judge-rules-against-unions/

They have to be able to control the pay hikes. You cannot let this get out of control. You need to make changes for this in the future. brain injury lawyers orlando

The Government should consider introducing in the law a background criminal check mandatory for each employer to avoid many legal issues arisen from this cause. I am a businessman who had some problems with my employees and I know how hard it was for me to fix them. A new law on this issue will make things much simpler.