Michigan Votes Forum

 Forcing people to join a union and taking their money by stealth is deplorable. This kind of criminal behavior and fraudulent intent should be a felony punishable by 5 years in prison. The federal government should use the RICO statues to confiscate everything this criminal enterprise owns.

These people are not "forced" to join a union. That is illegal, a violation of the Taft-Hartley Act. They are working for the government by drawing a check from the government, a job they chose. They should be able to enjoy the benefits the union provides through collective bargaining, and therefore pay dues. The term "stealth" is misleading to say the least.

They are ABSOLUTELY forced to join these unions!  Many are caring for family and wouldn't allow someone else to do the work.  The state is NOT their employer!  

The state is paying their wages.

The state is not "paying their wages".  The state is paying assistance to qualifying low income persons to help them with the cost of child care or a home help aid.  These low income persons then hire a child care provider or a home help aide.    

Does the state HIRE these child care providers or home help aides?  Can the state FIRE them?  The answer is NO.  They work directly for the parents of the children they care for or the patient they care for in the patient's home.  And if the state can't hire them or fire them THEN THEY DON'T WORK FOR THE STATE OF MICHIGAN.  

What percentage of the 70,000 child care workers covered by this "union" voted to join a union?  And what percentage of the 42,000 home care workers voted to join a union?  And note I did not ask what percentage of the ballots returned were for the union.  I asked what percentage of  ALL those forced to pay dues actually voted for this.     

Now, I suspect you will present three equally disingenuous arguments.  Let me save us both some time here --

1. You are going to say that some overwhelming majority of those who voted voted for a union in both cases. (home help aides and child care workers) But what you aren't going to mention is in both cases those who voted amounted to less than 20% of all the persons FORCED TO PAY DUES.  

2. Then you'll say that the 6,000 or so persons in both groups should decide what's best for the other 36,000 in both groups because, well, they took the time to vote and such.  What you won't mention is how the unions involved manipulated that vote by prescreening before the ballots were mailed and then only pushing those who supported the union to vote once the ballots were mailed.  You also won't mention how BECAUSE THE STATE IS NOT THEIR EMPLOYER there was no one from the other side offering any counter arguments.  In other words, your "elections" were about as democratic as those held in third world dictatorships.

3. Then you are going to argue that 50% of both groups "signed cards" to join a union. (of course there was no secret ballot because the unions can't trust what people will do in secret when their isn't some union goon breathing down their neck)   What you won't mention is how again, there was no one offering a counter argument because THE STATE IS NOT THEIR EMPLOYER.  You also won't mention how those cards were signed in front of a union organizer, in the person's home, after knocking on their door all hours of the day and night, and after promising them health care, paid time off and huge wage increases.  

This is the most crooked stunt ever pulled, using poor people as cover to siphon millions in tax dollars out of the state budget and straight into union coffers.

Answer me this -- is either union involved spending 6 million a piece to serve the child care or home care workers?  IF SO HOW.

One last suggestion --

Seeing as the validity of the child care and the home care "unions" are at best questionable, then maybe both unions involved should have to justify the amount of dues they are charging these people -- you know, to prove it's not just a scam and all.  So maybe both unions should have to show senate investigators how each union is using 6 million dollars apiece on either childcare workers or home care workers every year.  Because if they aren't spending ALL THOSE DUES on those workers, then they should lower the dues, right?

I mean, that only seems fair, given the fact that unlike typical union members most of these people have little or no power over how their union is run.  

You seem to enjoy arguing with yourself, so I'll step aside and let you. My argument remains the same, these workers voted for a union, their wages are paid by the state, and they deserve the right to union benefits.

HOW MANY OF THEM VOTED TO JOIN A UNION OR APPROVED THE "CONTRACT"?   

And don't give us percentages -- tell us how many individuals effects sent in a ballot.  

If you don't know how this works, I'll explain it to you. 

The unions involved knocked on doors to pressure these people into signing something that (in very fine print) said they supported the unions involved.  Because there was no "employer" there was no one making any arguments against signing these cards.  Because there was no common work site and they do not know each other they could not even discuss this move with each other or hear the points of view of those who objected to the unionization effort.  Because they were in their homes alone with some high pressure union salesman and that union salesman lied to them about what the card really meant ("it's just calling for a vote to join a union") many of them signed the card just to GET THE ORGANIZER TO LEAVE.    Those who didn't sign the card were stalked and harassed at all hours of the day and night by union salesmen until they finally broke down and opened the door or were caught outside.  That how these workers "voted" for a union.

Then, when it came time to "ratify" some bootleg contract, those who signed cards were polled by phone to see if they still believed the union claptrap they were told.  IF they did they were instructed to watch their mail for a ballot that looked like a piece of junk mail to anyone that wasn't looking for it.  

If they didn't want the union they weren't told to watch for their ballot.  Again, because there is no "employer" there was no oversight of how this second "vote" was conducted.  Once supporters were identified they were hammered day and night by phone and by union salesmen at their doors until they mailed in their ballot.  

They may deserve the "right to union benefits" but they also deserve an honest democratic vote and the right to decide if they want their benefit dollars being siphoned off as "union dues".

And why won't anyone explain how all these "dues" are being spent??

 "This is the most crooked stunt ever pulled..."

Yeah, right, Barbara. It's worse than Bernie Madoff, it's worse than payoffs to Blackwater and other defense contractors, it's worse than what BP did to cut corners.  Sure.

"Huge" wage increases?  What planet do you live on? Many of these caregivers  have given up high paying jobs and even careers to care for loved ones. And because they have the audacity to want respect, to want to earn a living wage and benefits,  suddenly they become stooges or thugs.

You hate unions. We get it.  If it were up to you,  we'd be back in the 19th century. 

 You offer no valid argument, is there is no good honest way to argue your point? Your reference to Bernie Madoff etc etc sounds like someone who has nothing constructive to offer for rebuttal. I actually picture a small child kicking around on the floor screaming because someone doesn't agree with them...

I would be more interested in actual responses to the questions about the total number of votes compared to the total number of people affected by this.

  Thank you, MP, I am also most interested in the hard numbers here.

I'm not sure where I referred to "huge wage increases" for caregivers.  I may have referred to bloated salaries and huge wage increases for incompetent dead weight union staffers, but that's another topic.  

and I certainly do feel caregivers deserve respect that's why they deserve and honest, fair, election with impartial oversight.  And I certainly don't believe ANY caregivers are stooges or thugs -- I believe union salesmen duped some of them into signing cards and if this bill passes there will be no recourse for them to get out of this supposed "union".  

As for hating unions well, in my experience, any time you ask tough questions about unions you are accused of "hating unions" or being backwards or prejudiced or anti-worker.    If this "stealth union" is above board, if the election was honest, if the numbers all add up, if the providers are really benefiting in concrete measurable terms, if the dues are truly ALL going to serve these providers than please, explain, we are all ears!  

 Wow this is really unfortunate in this country. We have several governors who really have no Idea what they are doing and really are looking after the interest of their interest groups. The general welfare is in place for a reason. I quess so long as we protect the interest of the few and protect the futures of the few all is well.Probably will crate another huge change again in leadership in two years. It seems to me that the interest of the middle class have to come into the equation some where. It seems to me also that the wealthiest and the politicians are all exempt from this economic situation we are in at present. Hmm and looks as if they are really directly resposible for the most part of this. Politicians continue to support and even force free trade down the throats of the general welfare and womder why the country is disengrating. I understnd the idea of global markets but globalization is the deception sold to the general welfare or the masses.There is a big difference between the two and unless there is a change in this probably we will continue to struggle as a state and a nation. It is time to chage our minds and move forward for what is best for everybody not just each parties select few. The thing that has made this country great is the balancing act. Too expect people to take less than a living wage has its own consequences as a nation. One of those consequneces is less tax revenue and less revenue in the hands of the  people who buy what is being produced or sold. This countries hope is in changing our minds on being party members and being American first. I really am neither a republican or a democrat but a American and glad that I am. Not sure whether there will be much left for our children and their children if we don't change directions soon. It isn't about the party but the nation and the future. I hope someone is listening.

 How can we get this moved forward and passed into law?

I'm in agreement this bill should be moved, to the trash bin.

 Can anyone explain to us why a person should have to pay Union dues to SEIU, Barack Obama's lacky dogs for services of a Union that ................they will not get in any way or form.  Explain this!  This is yet one more reason why this state needs to become a "Right to Work" state.  Workers, citizens and taxpayers should not be forced to pay any type of Union dues to make a living..............period!

tater salad - so the gypsy has all the freebees hes promised, Geico (goverment employee insurance company) , Ally Bank and GM where they buy their broken Volts, and finace their auto loans on the backs of the taxpayers. and their pension fund AIG.

 .........and this also:

Communism and Unions

http://depts.washington.edu/labhist/cpproject/grijalva.shtml

They are not "freebees". They are legally negotiated contract benefits, part of my employment agreement. They are not paid for by taxpayers. I detect a note of jealousy in your comments. I would hope you have an adequate retirement income for yourself.

Unsustainable benefits negotiated from people who have no skin in the game. What do politicians / dept. heads care if they agree to high pay and benefit packages? It's not their money. It's mine and all other tax payers. The system stinks.

No skin in the game? You, the voter, put them in the game. They represent you. You have skin in the game. They care if you approve of or don't approve of their actions, because they work for you, and you elect them. Make them accountable, rather than complain. The system is what we make it.

I don't vote for them. "Them" includes township supervisors, school boards stacked with MEA supporters, state reps and senators, and that group at the state (Civil Service Commission?) who sit across the table from employee unions to negotiate pay and benefits. Those people and groups have no skin in the game. It's not their money and they often benefit by agreeing to higher pay and benefits for others. They negotiate away the taxpayers money. I don't get to sit across the table from them. I make my voice heard in letters to the editor, letters and phone calls to my state rep and senator and showing up at township meetings. I don't just complain.

If you don't vote for your township supervisor, school board members, state rep and senators, you have standing to complain. Making your voice heard it part of democracy for sure, but voting is at it's core.

 We will be voting and it won't be for Barack Obama;

We will also be voting, and it will be for Barack Obama.

 Sorry to hear that.  Is Acorn helping you get to the polling booth?  They seem to even help the dead get their during the Obama voting period last election.  Were you one of those also?  Indiana is no different than Michigan!

Liberals had to "cheat" to win and this is what we got........a looser.  This my friend is your hero....a looser!

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/12/12/indiana-democratic-party-head-resigns-as-fraud-probe-heats-up/?cmpid=NL_FNTopHeadlines_20111212

 It is going to be a "lonely walk" to the polling booths in 2012  for liberals it seems.  One question:  Will your friends, The New Black Panther Party protect you from the big bad republican party that throws grandma over the cliff ?

http://nation.foxnews.com/president-obama/2011/12/12/poll-downbeat-dems-resurgent-republicans?cmpid=NL_FiredUpFoxNation_20111213

 Stealth Unionization and support by the liberals is a complete joke.  Here is what liberals support while being fleeced by their own bosses in the Union.  (take note gypsy)

Trumka, the ultimate hypocrite that he is:  http://weaselzippers.us/2011/12/13/afl-cio-chief-trumka-i-pay-more-than-my-fair-share-of-taxes/

www.UnionFacts.com

 www.UnionFacts.com

Maybe all the liberals out there (gypsy also) should read this and then give us their typical rebuttal which should be a laugh for all of us:    http://biggovernment.com/mikeflynn/2011/12/13/union-disenfranchises-workers-in-contract-vote/