Michigan Votes Forum

What exactly is the problem democrats have with property rights??? Leave people's riparian rights alone! Groundwater is NOT a public commodity-it is part of our property rights. If a property owner needs a permit, state and local govt can now refuse him a permit for a well or an occupance permit should he attempt to build on HIS OWN PROPERTY!! Farmers could be prevented from irrigating their own crops with ground water when necessary! There is NO reason for this other than to give government even more cotrol over individuals. Look what govt control over water has DONE in the west! Napa Valley now has 40% unemployment and people are losing their farms because govt owned the water and govt decuided to gicve the water to some damned smelt instead of the farmers. Do NOT allow these nutz in Lansing to do this!!

 No.!!!!  Get out of our lives !!  You people in Lansing have already caused too much damage to this State and the peope that are still in it.

Is this water use bill another way around "Eminent Domain"?  I oppose it.  I don't want any level of government having more control of my life.

I agree with comment #1.  It does seem this is a disguised eminent domain taking, which I oppose.

I have some experience with this concept of groundwater permitting.  I own a winery north of Suttons Bay. I was required, prior to opening the winery, to get a permit for groundwater disposal for a floor drain. Other wineries, evidently, have a grandfathered right to dispose of water on their property.  At first, this permit cost nothing.  However, when it was renewed, there was a budget shortfall and the legislature decided that this permit should now cost $1500/year.  I thought this charge was outrageous, so I delayed paying. Then the DEQ told me it was going to fine me $25,000 a day until it was paid.

I seems to me that most of these confiscatory regulations are merely enactments of boilerplates originally drafted by bankster trusts such as the Rockefeller Foundation.  These conspiracies want to reduce us ordinary people to the status of starving serfs.  After bankrupting us with their compound interest, they then want to take our land and recycle it into their mortgage scams.

Mr. Scripps, your proposal is braindead.

Warren Raftshol 

 Dan,

I oppose this bill because it is an example of a fuzzy bill opening the door to court interpetation of property rights of citizens.

George Paolacci

 This bill, although presented by Mr. Scripps, as being innocuous, would in fact lay the ground work to require regulation, metering and ultimately the sales of water resources to property owners, a property right that currently is inherit to property ownership. 

If one's neighbors, or perhaps "Water Police" deem one's water usage is too high, an investigation would be allowed to determine if "Usage is Too High", a rather nebulous term to say the least. 

Who will set the limit?

What is "TOO MUCH"? 

If one residence has 10 household members, water consumption, naturally, would be more than a household of 1, yet a complaint could be mandated exerting undue stress and potential hardship on the 'accused water waster".

Beware, BIG BROTHER will be watching your water usage!

 I'm sick to death of the political class trying to take my rights. I agree that's it's just a move for more eminent domain muscle. It wouldn't stop with water. The legislature needs to be reduced to part-time and unicameral with benefits only as long as you are elected. No more lifetime benefits. Maybe it would reduce the number of power hungry nuts from running.

 It was submitted by a Republican,Sen. Patricia Birkholz of Michigan,Cant blame that on the democrats.but no matter who is behind hind it, it sucks

 I stand corrected,It wasnt a republican that submitted it.

 I can understand a concern for the over excessive use of ground water but the State likes to give permits to the Bottled Water Co's. or has in the past.

I think it's a way to bleed money from those of us that live in rural areas. The problem with that is that We have fewer jobs, and when we have a job we make a lot less money than the people that live in the more populated urban areas.

 I purposely purchased a home OUTSIDE the city limits to avoid paying for water!  I can see a business possibly needing a permit, but a single dwelling I can hardly imagine using "excess" amounts of water!  Bleed us dry!  No wonder we can never get ahead!  What natural resource are they going to "limit" next?   The air we breathe??  They need to stay out of our business!!

This is concerning house bill 5319. If the government of Michigan wants to tax the people who have ground water wells, I belive that Mr. Scripps has lost his mind; he was voted in to the office to help the people not to make it harder on them. If they want control of the water rights, then maybe the water wells should be a write off on the Michigan income tax and all the repairs. The average four inch water well cost is about five thousand dollars. This writes off will cost the state of Michigan more than it will gain in revenue. But that is not the point; the state should leave the repairn rights alone. The more you have government control the more the people will loose their rights. The constitution of the U. S. states, is a government for the people, of the people, and by the people, and not for the government, of the government, and by the government. This would be against all this country stands for. Tax without any representation is what the Boston tea party was all about. Maybe MR. SCRIPPS has forgot were he came from on the west side of Michigan. The farmers are having a hard time as is, he is trying to make harder on them. Mr. Scripps, I am saying drop this issue, if not it will be the end of your public career. The voters will see to that. Mr. Albert Madden FREE SOIL Michoigan.

House bill 5319 Is just another way this government is trying to tax the working family to replace the monies this state sqaunders.If the state is going to tax what mother nature has blessed us with whats next ; the air we breath.

Is this Bill  going to gaurantee the quality of the water or is this just another way of the STATE of Michigan to get rid of the working class; who are already struggling to survive in rural America

I have an idea if the state NEEDS to save money; lets take off the road some of these cars, SUVs ,trucks and other vehicles i see daily with a Michigan State Emblem on them;  with a majority of the time only 1 person in them.....off the rd

I'm sure the 1 person driving them isn't paying a dime for Gas,Insurance or Maintenance on that vehicle.

I for 1 can only hope to drive such a nice vehicle but than again i don't work for the State of Michigan.

house bill 5319 is a shame, I have live in michigan my whole life (48 years). It is known that someone is moving out of our state every 12 minutes. You would think that the time wasted on this bill would be better spent working on fixing our unemployment problems. If this bill is to be passed, it is safe to say I'll be one of those people moving out of michigan. Remember the old motto If it is not broken don't fix it. Mr. script needs to work on ways help michigan grow not die. What was ever done to the company who owns the property in Ferndale where water was running out of a pipe onto the parking lot for weeks. Nothing. The people of Ferndale paid for that in their water bills. It is time to think of the hard working families that are trying to survive. Mrs JerryK1962

Re: 2009 House Bill 5319 (Replace reasonable groundwater use property right with requiring government permission )

I have been in Real Estate since 1976.. In that time Ive seen a simple closing with less Paperwork and no Goverment involvment in the transaction until such time a deed was recorded. It seems the Michigan Goverment wishes to become more and more involved in the Selling process. Michigan Private Ownership Rights are being challenged in all areas. It use to be a Citizen had Private Property Rights. But now the only rights we have as Owners is to stay on the land and have the State of Michigan tell us what we can and cant do with it through regulations and taxes.I remember back in 1976 a person wouldnt buy a house because the principal and interest taxes and insurance exceeded $300.00. In most cases now..if our taxes are $300.00 a month we are lucky.Just think of this Bill passing. Now the State has to hire additional people to enforce it and regulate it. This is not a way for Goverment to get Smaller but BIGGER. I can see it now just like Licence Plates ..Well Owners can go to the State every year and pay the yearly fees lets say $300.00 to $500.00 a year for the privilage of using the water that is under your property. Ive got news for the State of Michigan When a person buys a property they own the property and everything under it to the center of the Earth. Why would I want to give the State something I already own just to have the possibility of getting charged for it.

 I think many of us Americans are getting a little bit tired of blow hard politicians who don't have a clue how real people live dinking with our lives! Taking our WATER RIGHTS? Are you kidding me? Want to take the rights to our oxygen away too? It is this kind of mentality that will cause the people to rise up. The economy stinks. People are pushed about as far as they are willing to be pushed! Just WHO do you politicians think you are working for? Guess what? I am 'we the people' . So are my neighbors, family, and friends! Want to keep your job? Might not hurt to listen to the voice of the people! We live in God's country. In GOD we trust! He gave us the water. Don't try to take that away.

I am opposed to having my well water regulated,or taxed in any way.  I paid for it, I maintain it, my township does not offer a community water supply, or a sewage disposal system.  Will they next want to tax our private waste systems?  Will this pass because "we the people" have no vote, those in charge do not speak for me or you. If I wanted city water I would have stayed in the city and continued to drink filtered  "whatever" and pay for that right.  It is another self perpetuating act that will give even more incompetent goverment employees a reason to stand around and scratch their heads at our tax dollar expense.  I live in Genessee County, which has all but dried up.  One positive thing those with private wells have is no ongoing expense or unregulated usage tax. We can't take anymore, I will defend my property, and my well with everything I have.  It is my constitutional right.  Or is there a HB to change the constitution?????:(

 I too am opposed to HR5319. Many Michigan citizens have private wells on their properties and I can't imagine any one of them being in favor of this bill. I haven't seen any comments in favor of it. Several comments have asked if our private waste systems and the air we breathe are going to be next. Don't they realize that we are already there? In Grand Traverse County, the traditional rural surface dispersal of septage is no longer allowed. When a drainfield septic tank or holding tank is pumped, it MUST be deposited at the Septage Plant, unless it is trucked out of the jurisdiction at higher fuel and labor charges, especially when frost laws are in effect. During the ongoing debate over how to catch up on paying for the Septage Plant one of the suggestions was to make mandatory periodic pumping of septic tanks a law. We're paying 4 cents/gallon in septage fees every time we have the tanks pumped, plus the modest fee for the company that pumps the tanks and delivers to the Plant. If you don't think you're paying for the air you breathe, who do you think is at the bottom of the food chain when it comes to complying with the Clean Air Act, replacing freon (due to the global warming hoax) with more expensive refrigerants and paying DEQ fines on manufactiring businesses? Mr. & Mrs. you and me consumer! I'm a firm believer in keeping our water and air safe and clean, but Bill HR5319 is nothing more than a blatant money grab. People on municipal water systems, and there are many, may not see or understand how important this is and probably would be in favor of it to help ease the pressure on them for more taxes on something that directly effects them. If our lawmakers have nothing better to do than dream up this kind of nonsense, they have too much time on their hands. A part time legislature may be in order. That way they could spend part of their time in the real world to see how these laws really effect us!

I paid thousands of dollars to install the well.  I paid for the pump and pay for the power to run it.  The water is filtered (filters need to be changed monthly) to remove the sedement before it can be conditioned.  I paid for the water conditioner unit and pay the power and the salt to maintain that unit before that water is used by my household.  Lets not forget about the heat source needed for the winter months to keep the well from freezing.  When all the costs are added up to run a private well it cost more for that water then what public water services charge.  And now you want me to pay for the water.  Are you going to reimburse me for all the costs that occur to get that water out of the ground that the people in urban areas don't have to pay?  With this government thinking,  this why come election day I will re-elect no one!!!

OK, so it has been joked in the past, that government will tax the air you breathe.  Seems not so far fetched as it once did

 What a joke.  My taxes in one of the poorest township in the state are so high that this year I had to borrow to pay them.  Because I had the nerve to build a new house 10 years ago, and I keep things in order, neat and clean...I have been constantly re-assessed, and the taxes just keep getting higher.  Now this state thinks that charging me for ground water might be a way to achieve more money for the state?  Try minimizing our paid government...try not spending money before you have it...try taking away all the perks that the "officials" get, but I do not - This is just another reason to leave Michigan and take what money I have left with me!

 Let the government provide a well, pay for the pump and the required power to operate and maybe then you have the answer to our problems. I don't think so.

 I believe this is the biggest crock I've heard yet.  The government has no right to "charge" us homeowners for using our own water.  My well is paid for, well I should say it belongs to the bank until my mortgage is paid off.  I do not agree with this.  I am certain there are better ways in which the government can make money.  Here's a thought, collect more taxes from business's and stop giving "tax breaks" to immigrants.  We are all tax paying citizens and I believe we pay enough in both state and federal taxes and this is not only silly, but in part an invasion of our privacy.  I really hope this does not pass as it is just ridiculous!  Do we have to start passing around petitions to stop this?

 I agree 100% with freespirit, and so does about 60 other people I have talked to today about this.  I would like to add that without water ( 70% of our body mass) we die.  So in an abstract sense the government will be taxing the most important thing keeping us alive.  If we need petitions to stop this lets do it.  These are our ELECTED officials folks.  They work for us.  They need to be reminded of that on occasion.

Are these Rep's  Stupid     I think the answer is "YES"......All they want is the money they dont care about conservation.....They want to make money why do they take a pay cut like some of us had to......MORONS!!!

This is about far more than charging you for water! This a direct assault against your property rights-a 'taking'! Riparian water rights are the norm east opf the Mississippi. In the west, where they are separated from property, there are never-ending struggles to get enugh water-constand small 'water wars'. This is about the State or the FedGov taking the rights to water. Consider this: you own 40 acres somewhere and want to build your dream home. Your local 'smart-growth' loonies want a greenway, or less 'sprawl'. Instead of having to zone you out and get into a legal battle, they just refuse a well permit. No water= no occupancy permit! You cant use your own property without their OK. The Feds are trying to put this in place under the Clean Water Act-expand it to read ALL water-not just navigible waters. Need to irrigate your field? Not without a permit! Think of all the things you cannt do wihout access to your own water . . .and eventually these totalitarians will do it! Do NOT allow them to take your water rights. If yo do, we will all eventually be forced to pour cement down the wellpipe and sign on to some huge wtaer/sewer project that costs a fortune and that they control. Personally, if this guy was my rep, I'd make sure he left office in November . . .as far as I'm concerned he should be out pumping septic tanks!

 This is why I will defeat him this fall!  Please support my campaign at Adrian4House.com

THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF MICHIGAN ENACT:

                   PART 4. PUBLIC TRUST RESOURCES

     Sec. 401. (1) The conservation and development of the natural

resources of the state are of paramount public concern in the

interest of the health, safety, and general welfare of the people,

and the air, water, and other natural resources of the state shall

be protected from pollution, impairment, and destruction.

     (2) The waters of the state, including groundwater, are held

in trust by the state. The state shall protect these waters and

other natural resources that are subject to the public trust for

Dave P:

 

     Sec. 401. (1) The conservation and development of the natural

 

resources of the state are of paramount public concern in the

 

interest of the health, safety, and general welfare of the people,

 

and the air, water, and other natural resources of the state shall

 

be protected from pollution, impairment, and destruction.

...   

That's the bill, folks. No mention of taxes. Just protecting our waters, including groundwater- which if you know anything about hydrology, is obvious.

Please note also that Sec. 401 (1) is virtually a direct quote lifted from the State of Michigan Constitution, Article IV, Sec 52.  In other words, enactment of this type of legislation is literally mandated by the state's constitution.

 HB 5319 is a bad bill  for all and sundry, including farmers and homeowners that have wells.  The Sierra Club and Rep. Dan Scripps can take a flying leap in their support of wanting the State of Michigan to STEAL our property rights.

The bill the Sierra Club supports takes our water rights away and gives it to the state to regulate, fine, fee and permit. It would repeal the current legal doctrine that gives the owner of real property a property right to the reasonable use of groundwater

Pardon the pun -- by my hope is that this bill will be "dead-in-the-water."

 Rep. Dan Scripps you can take a flying leap!  I hope the people in your district will be soon voting you out of office. 

 HB 5319 is a bad bill  for all and sundry, including farmers and homeowners that have wells.  More Big Brother control and stealing away the rights of the individual.  Heil! 

The you introduced supports takes our water rights away and gives it to the state to regulate, fine, fee and permit. It would repeal the current legal doctrine that gives the owner of real property a property right to the reasonable use of groundwater

Pardon the pun -- but my hope is that this bill will be "dead-in-the-water."

inform4:

 Rep. Dan Scripps you can take a flying leap!  I hope the people in your district will be soon voting you out of office. 

 HB 5319 is a bad bill  for all and sundry, including farmers and homeowners that have wells.  More Big Brother control and stealing away the rights of the individual.  Heil! 

The you introduced supports takes our water rights away and gives it to the state to regulate, fine, fee and permit. It would repeal the current legal doctrine that gives the owner of real property a property right to the reasonable use of groundwater

Pardon the pun -- but my hope is that this bill will be "dead-in-the-water."

 

So, you reject the Michigan Constitution's mandate that the legislature should act to protect the natural resource of the state's water supply from pollution, impairment and destruction? 

I see nothing in this bill that precludes the landowner from making "reasonable" use of groundwater flowing beneath his property, or impairs his right to do so.  It does allow for regulation of groundwater usage to make sure such use is, indeed, "reasonable" to protect all interests in this vital natural resource.

 If you want to use water on your real property why should you be taxed or have to get a permit which would also cost.  I agree with the others that have written on the site regarding this bill introduced by Rep. Dan Scripps.  When election time comes and he is up for re-election...........NOT RE-ELECTED

timetothink:

If you want to use water on your real property why should you be taxed or have to get a permit which would also cost.

These questions have long been answered, through legislation and litigation.

One is taxed on the value of owned property to support government services provided by the community's government and expected by the community.

Permits for development of property are required in order to protect community interests that may be and are affected by such development.

This really is Civics 01.

I reject the Current Michigan Constitution mandate and refer to The Original Constitution.  It seems in 1960 our State Government Started the process of becoming Big Brother. Freedom is not free  it comes with responsabilities. People today are conditioned to have Government take care of everything. When do we become responsable for our actions. We do not need Governmnet creating new rules to hire more people to enforce them. We do not need bigger government to charge and fee us to death to pay for their mistakes. This Bill is just another way for the Government to generate more income for the state and at the same time create more bureaucracy. Enough is enough  Get back to basics and start treating all things fair and equal with no special interest groups like insurance companies (seat belt law) the taking away of the rights of businesses to allow smoking in thier building (casinos excluded) Having to wear a helmet ( monies from the old Federal super fund) just to name a few. The real problem is people are  buying into this thought process and forgetting Government comes from the people not to the People.

FreeSpeaker:

inform4:

 Rep. Dan Scripps you can take a flying leap!  I hope the people in your district will be soon voting you out of office. 

 HB 5319 is a bad bill  for all and sundry, including farmers and homeowners that have wells.  More Big Brother control and stealing away the rights of the individual.  Heil! 

The you introduced supports takes our water rights away and gives it to the state to regulate, fine, fee and permit. It would repeal the current legal doctrine that gives the owner of real property a property right to the reasonable use of groundwater

Pardon the pun -- but my hope is that this bill will be "dead-in-the-water."

 

So, you reject the Michigan Constitution's mandate that the legislature should act to protect the natural resource of the state's water supply from pollution, impairment and destruction? 

I see nothing in this bill that precludes the landowner from making "reasonable" use of groundwater flowing beneath his property, or impairs his right to do so.  It does allow for regulation of groundwater usage to make sure such use is, indeed, "reasonable" to protect all interests in this vital natural resource.

 

 

  This bill enables citizens to control, as we always have, our water, whether in lakes and streams or underground. The provisions of the bill only enact requirements of the Michigan Constitution, and does not set up taxation, 'government control' nor any of the scurrilous lies that are being promulgated in an effort to smear Dan Scripps. Read the bill, and don't accept the pre-digested opinions which are blatantly partisan and, worse, just plain wrong.

 It is just more government. What is wrong with the status quo?

 Just read the context of the bill - they want to have more control over our WATER a basic necessity that everyone needs! Leave the laws that exist alone!

 tax on the air is carbon tax ,,,, wake up ,,, tou would like to see more of this evil going on ??? go to info wars dot com or alex jones ,,,, they have you tube videos about even more corruption than this !!!

be open minded and see what you will learn ,,, warning the more you learn the more you will get upset