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  • 01-01-2001 12:00 AM

    2009 House Bill 4501 (Revise “pistol” definition )

    Introduced in the House on March 4, 2009

    Click here to view bill details.
  • 03-16-2009 9:23 PM In reply to

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4501 (Revise “pistol” definition )

    To reclassify rifles as pistols is just a sneaky wahy of spreading the requirement of registering firearms to long guns.

     

  • 03-21-2009 8:39 PM In reply to

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4501 (Revise “pistol” definition )

     lets work to repeal firearms registration.

  • 03-22-2009 1:30 PM In reply to

    • gypsy
    • Top 10 Contributor
    • Joined on 03-19-2009

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4501 (Revise “pistol” definition )

    drmoorejr:

    To reclassify rifles as pistols is just a sneaky wahy of spreading the requirement of registering firearms to long guns.

     

    Seems this bill's intent is to reclasify what now would be a pistol as a rifle or shotgun.

    "Introduced by Rep. Douglas Geiss (D) on March 4, 2009, to revise the definition of “pistol” so that it applies to a firearm less than 26 inches long, rather than 30 inches. Many commercial rifles and shotguns have folding stocks that make the gun less than 30 inches when folded, presumably making them qualify for pistol registration requirements."

     

     

  • 03-22-2009 4:12 PM In reply to

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4501 (Revise “pistol” definition )

     no. they wish to make a shotgun less than 26 inches into a pistol so that the owner must register it. registration is wrong.

  • 03-22-2009 4:21 PM In reply to

    • gypsy
    • Top 10 Contributor
    • Joined on 03-19-2009

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4501 (Revise “pistol” definition )

    (e) "Pistol" means a loaded or unloaded firearm that is 30 26

     

    inches or less in length, or a loaded or unloaded firearm that by

     

    its construction and appearance conceals it as a firearm.

    That is taken from the text of the bill. At the present time, a firearm, shotgun included, less than 30" is a pistol. This bill would reguire it to be less than 26". This would mean less, not more, of these weapons that are really not pistols would be classified as pistols.

  • 03-22-2009 5:05 PM In reply to

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4501 (Revise “pistol” definition )

     as would any shotgun with a folding stock. why treat one differently? why register at all?

  • 03-22-2009 5:36 PM In reply to

    • gypsy
    • Top 10 Contributor
    • Joined on 03-19-2009

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4501 (Revise “pistol” definition )

    This bill's intent is to allow these folding shotguns, and other weapons, that are now classified as pistols and have to be registered as such, to not have to be classified as pistols and registered.

    I take it your issue is one of registration, of any gun. This bill would move in that direction, by removing a certain type of gun from the list of those needing to be registered.

    You should contact your representative and encourage him/her to propose a bill to end registration of all guns, if that is your goal.

  • 03-22-2009 5:42 PM In reply to

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4501 (Revise “pistol” definition )

     this bill would add guns to the list of those that must be registered. you haven't answered why they must be registered in the first place. what is the purpose of registration?

  • 03-22-2009 7:26 PM In reply to

    • gypsy
    • Top 10 Contributor
    • Joined on 03-19-2009

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4501 (Revise “pistol” definition )

    This bill would not add guns to the list that needs to be registered (pistols) as I read it. It would do just the opposite.

    Why any guns need to be registered is not the issue in this legislation. Sounds like an issue you need to bring up to your representative.

  • 03-22-2009 7:31 PM In reply to

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4501 (Revise “pistol” definition )

     shotguns that are less than 26 inches overall length are illegal. perhaps there is a confiscation plan in effect?

  • 03-22-2009 7:33 PM In reply to

    • gypsy
    • Top 10 Contributor
    • Joined on 03-19-2009

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4501 (Revise “pistol” definition )

    You really need to take the time and read this legislation.

  • 03-22-2009 8:30 PM In reply to

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4501 (Revise “pistol” definition )

     you really need to state the purpose of registration.

  • 03-22-2009 9:36 PM In reply to

    • gypsy
    • Top 10 Contributor
    • Joined on 03-19-2009

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4501 (Revise “pistol” definition )

    No, I don't. That is not the topic of this thread.

  • 03-23-2009 3:33 AM In reply to

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4501 (Revise “pistol” definition )

     but it is the purpose of the legislation.

  • 03-23-2009 12:09 PM In reply to

    • gypsy
    • Top 10 Contributor
    • Joined on 03-19-2009

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4501 (Revise “pistol” definition )

    no, it isn't. May I suggest you read it.

  • 03-23-2009 12:52 PM In reply to

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4501 (Revise “pistol” definition )

     i have. keeping and bearing arms is a right. registration has only one purpose. confiscation is a usurpation of that right.

  • 03-23-2009 1:28 PM In reply to

    • gypsy
    • Top 10 Contributor
    • Joined on 03-19-2009

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4501 (Revise “pistol” definition )

    Are you advocating not registering guns that are required to be registered? Registering guns is not confiscating them.

  • 03-23-2009 4:59 PM In reply to

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4501 (Revise “pistol” definition )

    Nice try.  He is simply stating that the expansion of the pistol definition will only require in the increased number of firearms that are to be registered. 

     

    Also note history has shown that all firearms confiscation started off with registration ALL of them.  Look at what happened during the times leading up to the American Revolution.   The very thought of firearms confiscation added to the reasons for the colonist to rebel.

    You will not win a debate with an educated pro-gun advocate.  Did you know that when the registration of firearms HB first was debated/discussed that most Michigan citizens apposed it.  It was then diguised as a "safety inspection".  Now that they eliminated the "safety inspection" the true intent of that law was the registration of firearms.  Michigan is only 1 of 5 states with such laws.  The others like California have even stricter laws that did nothing to stop crime.

     

    Firearms registration is a scam, as all trace data is available (from the BATFE) to law enforcement aganecies if they are investigating a crime with a gun in question. Redundant registration is a way for "big brother" or the Super nanny to keep tabs on the very people they do not trust.  If the government doesn't trust us, why should we trust it?

     

    If the definition is narrowed by the DECREASE of the size of the firearm, then it would result in less guns being required to register.  However the very law of registering firearms could easily be repealed if they enforced other laws, such as unlawful firearms possesion by violent criminals.  These however don't happen as people are too busy making exscuses for them by stating that the very existance of the gun made the criminal.  The definition of a pistol should be limited to what arms are really pistols.

    Filed under: , ,
  • 03-23-2009 5:26 PM In reply to

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4501 (Revise “pistol” definition )

     so what is the legitimate purpose to registration? it solves no crimes. it prevents no crimes. what other purpose does a list of where all the weapons are serve?

  • 03-23-2009 6:23 PM In reply to

    • gypsy
    • Top 10 Contributor
    • Joined on 03-19-2009

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4501 (Revise “pistol” definition )

    drmoorejr:
    He is simply stating that the expansion of the pistol definition will only require in the increased number of firearms that are to be registered. 

    This bill does not expand the definition of a pistol, it decreases it, from the 30" limit to the 26" limit. Please read the bill.

  • 03-23-2009 6:26 PM In reply to

    • gypsy
    • Top 10 Contributor
    • Joined on 03-19-2009

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4501 (Revise “pistol” definition )

    bugman:

     so what is the legitimate purpose to registration? it solves no crimes. it prevents no crimes. what other purpose does a list of where all the weapons are serve?

    Again, registration is not the issue here. This bill would actually reduce the types of guns that need to be registered.

     

  • 03-23-2009 6:39 PM In reply to

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4501 (Revise “pistol” definition )

     it would increase the amount of guns needing to be registered. although no gun needs to be registered. the supreme court has already ruled that criminals don't have to register their guns because to do so would violate their 5th amendment rights.

  • 03-23-2009 6:49 PM In reply to

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4501 (Revise “pistol” definition )

     this bill would also place many rifles and shotguns on the 'pistol' list. requiring registration, a prelude to confiscation. you have still not answered what the legitimate purpose for registration is.

  • 03-23-2009 6:52 PM In reply to

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4501 (Revise “pistol” definition )

     

    Yes.  This is correct.  I misread the bill I interpeted that it was to increase from 26" to 30" which did not make sense. The Current definition is at 30".   The pistol definition is a waste of government resources and time anyway.   But the whole point of this pistol definition is to provide a guideline as to which firearms are subject to registration.

     

    I know this thread was regarding the HB 4501, but if registration is techniqualy unlawful, since the public was misled to believe it was really a safety inspection (which is now no longer) then this pistol definition as much as a waste of resources as it this discussion.   :)

     

    As qypsy stated, re-read the bill as I did.  Its actually a good one.... (thats if you consider most gun laws good anyway).

     

    Filed under:
  • 03-23-2009 7:08 PM In reply to

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4501 (Revise “pistol” definition )

     doctor.

    the original requirement was to register all handguns at the state level, and then have them 'safety inspected' (re-registered) at the local level. this bill only adds shotguns and rifles to the list of weapons that 'need' to be registered. and no, i don't think that registration is a good idea.

    it hasn't reduced crime. it hasn't saved a single life. it hasn't accomplished what we were promised it would. all it has accomplished is supplying the government with a convenient list of guns and their locations. those who support these types of laws cannot give us a legitimate purpose for that list other than to facilitate confiscation. 

  • 03-23-2009 9:45 PM In reply to

    • gypsy
    • Top 10 Contributor
    • Joined on 03-19-2009

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4501 (Revise “pistol” definition )

    This bill does not add guns to the list that needs to be registered. It subtracts from that list. Opposing it is not the best way to reach your goal of ending all registration of pistols. Not passing this bill will leave things at the status quo, that is guns under 30" will need to be registered as pistols. Passing this bill will require guns under 26" to be registered as pistols.

  • 03-24-2009 2:01 AM In reply to

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4501 (Revise “pistol” definition )

     and the list will be expanded to include rifles under 26" and shotguns under 26". these were not included on the pistol list before.

  • 03-24-2009 3:34 AM In reply to

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4501 (Revise “pistol” definition )

     and the 'pistol' list gets no smaller due to the fact that there are no pistols on the list now that are over 26". so the size of the list grows by adding all rifles and shotguns shorter than that. they were not included before.

  • 03-24-2009 3:35 AM In reply to

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4501 (Revise “pistol” definition )

     and as usual, gun control gets a pass.

  • 03-24-2009 9:45 AM In reply to

    • gypsy
    • Top 10 Contributor
    • Joined on 03-19-2009

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4501 (Revise “pistol” definition )

    You seem to be searching for an army to battle in an empty field. I suggest you lobby your representative to repeal gun registration.

  • 03-24-2009 9:50 AM In reply to

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4501 (Revise “pistol” definition )

    You are right and wrong.  There are no pistols over 26", but there is a current "pistol definition" that includes shotguns and rifles 30" and under.  This bill apears to narrow that definition. 

    And yes I agree that firearms registration is not a worthy process.  But if anything you could conclude that this bill is not as bad as it seems, but maybe even a step towards less registration.  Big Smile

  • 03-24-2009 9:58 AM In reply to

    • gypsy
    • Top 10 Contributor
    • Joined on 03-19-2009

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4501 (Revise “pistol” definition )

    Thank you dr. I have been saying that, but apparently to no avail.

  • 03-24-2009 10:12 AM In reply to

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4501 (Revise “pistol” definition )

     doctor.

    the previous law did not include any rifles or shotguns. the list now includes those. thus, guns have been added to the 'registration' list. redefining a shotgun or a rifle as a pistol serves no legitimate purpose. it serves no safety purpose. it only changes those guns that must be registered and will be confiscated.

    every state except this one that has had registration has had confiscation. the latest was louisiana and hurricane katrina. some of those people have still not gotten their legally owned guns back even after the courts have ruled in their favor and never will.

  • 03-24-2009 10:24 AM In reply to

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4501 (Revise “pistol” definition )

    Ok.  I will have to look in my "trusty" Michigan Firearms Laws book.  I am technically working now... so I will do this later.  I will verify of thats correct or not.

  • 03-24-2009 10:28 AM In reply to

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4501 (Revise “pistol” definition )

     you will find that 26" and less shotguns are currently illegal. 26" and under rifles are as well. why are we changing the law to include these as pistols that must be registered? does this law 'legalize' them? or is this an 'end run' around the 5th amendment?

  • 03-24-2009 3:44 PM In reply to

    • gypsy
    • Top 10 Contributor
    • Joined on 03-19-2009

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4501 (Revise “pistol” definition )

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    HOUSE BILL No. 4501

     

    March 3, 2009, Introduced by Reps. Geiss, Ebli, Rick Jones, Constan, LeBlanc, Lori, Espinoza, Hansen and Angerer and referred to the Committee on Tourism, Outdoor Recreation and Natural Resources.

     

         A bill to amend 1927 PA 372, entitled

     

    "An act to regulate and license the selling, purchasing,

    possessing, and carrying of certain firearms and gas ejecting

    devices; to prohibit the buying, selling, or carrying of certain

    firearms and gas ejecting devices without a license or other

    authorization; to provide for the forfeiture of firearms under

    certain circumstances; to provide for penalties and remedies; to

    provide immunity from civil liability under certain circumstances;

    to prescribe the powers and duties of certain state and local

    agencies; to prohibit certain conduct against individuals who apply

    for or receive a license to carry a concealed pistol; to make

    appropriations; to prescribe certain conditions for the

    appropriations; and to repeal all acts and parts of acts

    inconsistent with this act,"

     

    by amending section 1 (MCL 28.421), as amended by 2008 PA 407.

     

    THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF MICHIGAN ENACT:

     

         Sec. 1. As used in this act:

     

         (a) "Felony" means that term as defined in section 1 of

     

    chapter I of the code of criminal procedure, 1927 PA 175, MCL

     

    761.1, or a violation of a law of the United States or another


     

    state that is designated as a felony or that is punishable by death

     

    or by imprisonment for more than 1 year.

     

         (b) "Firearm" means a weapon from which a dangerous projectile

     

    may be propelled by an explosive, or by gas or air. Firearm does

     

    not include a smooth bore rifle or handgun designed and

     

    manufactured exclusively for propelling by a spring, or by gas or

     

    air, BB's BBs not exceeding .177 caliber.

     

         (c) "Misdemeanor" means a violation of a penal law of this

     

    state or violation of a local ordinance substantially corresponding

     

    to a violation of a penal law of this state that is not a felony or

     

    a violation of an order, rule, or regulation of a state agency that

     

    is punishable by imprisonment or a fine that is not a civil fine,

     

    or both.

     

         (d) "Peace officer" means, except as otherwise provided in

     

    this act, an individual who is employed as a law enforcement

     

    officer, as that term is defined under section 2 of the commission

     

    on law enforcement standards act, 1965 PA 203, MCL 28.602, by this

     

    state or another state, a political subdivision of this state or

     

    another state, or the United States, and who is required to carry a

     

    firearm in the course of his or her duties as a law enforcement

     

    officer.

     

         (e) "Pistol" means a loaded or unloaded firearm that is 30 26

     

    inches or less in length, or a loaded or unloaded firearm that by

     

    its construction and appearance conceals it as a firearm.

     

         (f) "Purchaser" means a person who receives a pistol from

     

    another person by purchase or gift.

     

         (g) "Reserve peace officer", "auxiliary officer", or "reserve


     

    officer" means, except as otherwise provided in this act, an

     

    individual authorized on a voluntary or irregular basis by a duly

     

    authorized police agency of this state or a political subdivision

     

    of this state to act as a law enforcement officer, who is

     

    responsible for the preservation of the peace, the prevention and

     

    detection of crime, and the enforcement of the general criminal

     

    laws of this state, and who is otherwise eligible to possess a

     

    firearm under this act.

     

         (h) "Retired police officer" or "retired law enforcement

     

    officer" means an individual who was a police officer or law

     

    enforcement officer who was certified as described under section 9a

     

    of the commission on the law enforcement standards act, 1965 PA

     

    203, MCL 28.609a, and retired in good standing from his or her

     

    employment as a police officer or law enforcement officer.

     

         (i) "Seller" means a person who sells or gives a pistol to

     

    another person.

     

         (j) "State court judge" means a judge of the district court,

     

    circuit court, probate court, or court of appeals or justice of the

     

    supreme court of this state who is serving either by election or

     

    appointment.

     

         (k) "State court retired judge" means a judge or justice

     

    described in subdivision (j) who is retired, or a retired judge of

     

    the recorders court.

     

         Enacting section 1. This amendatory act does not take effect

     

    unless Senate Bill No.____ or House Bill No. 4502(request no.

     

    01503'09 a) of the 95th Legislature is enacted into law.

  • 03-24-2009 5:53 PM In reply to

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4501 (Revise “pistol” definition )

     An act to regulate and license the selling, purchasing,

    possessing, and carrying of certain firearms and gas ejecting

    devices; to prohibit the buying, selling, or carrying of certain

    firearms and gas ejecting devices without a license or other

    authorization; to provide for the forfeiture of firearms under

    certain circumstances;

    those phrases make this law, and any law like it unconstitutional.

    § 6 Bearing of arms.

    Sec. 6. Every person has a right to keep and bear arms for the defense of himself and the state.

    History:

     

    Former constitution:

     

    See Const. 1908, Art. II, § 5.

    Const. 1963, Art. I, § 6, Eff. Jan. 1, 1964.

  • 03-24-2009 5:59 PM In reply to

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4501 (Revise “pistol” definition )

     what is the public purpose for changing the definition of a shotgun into a pistol? what is the public purpose for changing the definition of a rifle into a pistol? it will only serve to make otherwise law abiding citizens into criminals. law that only effects small groups is bad law. law that criminalizes legal behavior that you happen to disagree with is tyranny.

  • 03-24-2009 9:19 PM In reply to

    • gypsy
    • Top 10 Contributor
    • Joined on 03-19-2009

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4501 (Revise “pistol” definition )

    I believe you are having a hard time with the reality of this bill.

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