Michigan Votes Forum

 it's a simple question, but it is at the root of so many of our debates on this thread, because it is at the root of so many pieces of legislation in this state.

the debate over abortion is, at it's root, whether or not the mother has the freedom to choose whether or not to kill the person growing inside of her. in which case, the freedom of choice is whether or not to commit murder.

the debate over smoking bans is, at the root, about whether or not a citizen has the right to choose to do something that others feel is bad for him.

the debate over motorcycle helmets is, at the root, basically the same question, whether a citizen has the right to choose what is not necessarily the best option in other people's eyes.

this takes the 'surface debate' away and gets to the root of the question.

i'm interested to hear your opinions.

 i imagine that before long, someone will post the counter question, 'should the michigan citizen have freedom of choice?'. i say yes.

freedom of choice is the root of our other rights. it is the thing that makes us free. but we must remember,we are not free to harm others that we are obligated to protect. we are all obligated to protect the unborn, as they have no voice. to do any less would be to acknowledge that we believe that they have no right to life. we are, however, not obligated to protect grown ups in their everyday decisions regarding their health. that is their responsibility. not ours. to do so would be to deny that they have a freedom of choice and a right to decide such things for themselves.

 Ultimately, in a capitalist society.............

Money=Freedom.

In Communist China, you DONT have freedom. (We all know that)

(and remember communism and socialism are NOT the same thing.)    But anyway..........

In a Communist country you cant just move to a different city.  You must have "permission" from the government.

In a "capitalist" country if you dont have the money to move from New York to San Antonio, than the net result is the .......SAME.

Niether citizen can move.

Money=Freedom.

Unfettered capitalism puts a monetary price on freedom, which is a perversion of the word "freedom" in the  history of  the United States. 

REAL freedom comes from the justice and fairness of a socialist society.

 Bull! Socialism, Barrack, is another work for COMMUNISM! This SOCILIST SOCEITY you speak of, are you a commie??

 with bus tickets being less than two hundred dollars to travel anywhere coast to coast, and hitch-hiking still free, i'd say i'd rather have capitalism than socialism anyday. you speak of justice and fairness, but you never talk of freedom. i went to vegas for less than a hundred dollars round trip. travel is cheap if you know how. i'd rather be free to move than told when and if i can move by the state.

uber-liberal:

 with bus tickets being less than two hundred dollars to travel anywhere coast to coast, and hitch-hiking still free, i'd say i'd rather have capitalism than socialism anyday. you speak of justice and fairness, but you never talk of freedom. i went to vegas for less than a hundred dollars round trip. travel is cheap if you know how. i'd rather be free to move than told when and if i can move by the state.

 Your comment makes no sense, as I am just citing an example.

If you dont have a 100 bucks you wouldnt be able to go, and I highly doubt you would even "hike" to your local Mcdonalds, let alone to Vegas.    My point remains valid.

Freedom=money

 i've hitched from virginia to washington state. from michigan to key west and back, and from dallas to dc several times. i've also gotten great deals on the internet on vegas packages. your point is moot. your opinion is invalid based on your lack of facts. your outlook is settled, and i don't think anything short of another election would change that.

so, according to you, michigan citizens can't afford to make any choices, so they don't need them. 

uber-liberal:

so, according to you, michigan citizens can't afford to make any choices, so they don't need them. 

If thats what you have gotten out of all that, than you lack reading comprehension skills.

Way to go skippy  You're  living up to your reputation.

silence dogood:

 it's a simple question, but it is at the root of so many of our debates on this thread, because it is at the root of so many pieces of legislation in this state.

the debate over abortion is, at it's root, whether or not the mother has the freedom to choose whether or not to kill the person growing inside of her. in which case, the freedom of choice is whether or not to commit murder.

the debate over smoking bans is, at the root, about whether or not a citizen has the right to choose to do something that others feel is bad for him.

the debate over motorcycle helmets is, at the root, basically the same question, whether a citizen has the right to choose what is not necessarily the best option in other people's eyes.

this takes the 'surface debate' away and gets to the root of the question.

i'm interested to hear your opinions.

 

Your debate is based on your premises, as you see them. That's fine if you want to debate yourself, but I don't agree with how you've framed the debate.

The question over abortion isn't about the freedom of the woman to murder a child, it's about the freedom of a woman to control her own body, and make her own reproductive decisions.

The debate about banning smoking in restaurants or workplaces isn't about taking the rights away from smokers, but protecting the rights of non-smokers.

The debate about repealing the helmet mandate you have right. It is about the freedom of an adult to make a stupid decision concerning his or her own health. It doesn't deny the rights of anyone else, nor endanger anyone else.

I'm pro-choice, because I wouldn't presume to make such a serious decision for a woman as to whether to have an abortion or not. Whether I think it is right or wrong, if it was me, my body, my life, I would feel it is my choice.

I'm pro banning smoking in restaurants and workplaces because smokers have many other opportunities to smoke without sharing their smoke with non-smokers, especially while they are eating or working.

I'm pro repealing the helmet ban because no one is hurt but the person choosing not to wear the helmet.

I realize this is very complicated for those who want a one answer fits all questions debate. Tough, life is complicated.

 so you are saying that you don't REALLY believe in freedom of choice.

 so, what does all that about no one having enough money to travel, therefore no one is free stuff have to do with freedom of choice?

uber-liberal:

 so you are saying that you don't REALLY believe in freedom of choice.

You are saying I don't really believe in freedom of choice.

I am saying what I said. It is there for you, and anyone else, to read.

 it's a simple question. a yes or no, one time, should suffice.your right to choose should not be 'conditional' except where it violates the law. choosing to kill an innocent is violating the law, and the rights of that innocent. it has nothing to do with 'a woman's choice', because the woman was not interested in choosing to control the birth, just killing the product of the sex. using a condom or saying no or taking birth control pills would be choosing to control birth. waiting over half a year while still pregnant says that she is premeditating murder.

defend it all you like, it is still murder.

 Isnt the point of this thread  "Freedom of choice". ??

Are you FOR  "freedom of choice"  or against it ???

 no, trueblue. the point of this thread is to find out whether or not you are for it or against it. if you read my posts, you know my thoughts on the subject, i'm interested in yours. the point of this thread is 'do the citizens of michigan have the freedom of choice?' some believe they do not. some believe they should not. which are you?

 silence.

they do not have the freedom of choice. but they should.

Yes.

 yes, we can choose to kill unborn people. no, we cannot choose to smoke. nor can we choose to fore go wearing a helmet.

A woman can choose what to do with her body, you can choose to smoke, and if the helmet mandate repeal passes, you can choose to be imprudent.

 it is not her body she is killing.

 women already can choose what to do with her own body, but she does not 'own' the life of the person growing inside her. a life destroyed in favor of a lifestyle.

no, i cannot choose to smoke, a legal activity has been banned after hundreds of years. a right has been usurped. a freedom denied.

no, i cannot choose to ride helmetless. the state does not trust it's citizens.