Michigan Votes Forum

Introduced in the House on February 24, 2009

Click here to view bill details.

Even more dumbing down?

Why have public education at all if what students learn is meaningless?

Especially when the taxpayers are forced to pay for it?

 looks like a job for vouchers for private schools.

I am a CTE instructor and see these students everyday and how they are bringing more and more skills to the table every year in technology driven classes.  CTE is an amazing place where students can learn to use those skills and prepare them for challenges they might face in a field of study that actually leads somewhere. People believe that CTE is all about pushing the student into the workplace and that’s all CTE does, they could not be more wrong. We push students to college and prepare them so they will be ahead when they hit their career in college also. Whoever still believes that places hire right out of high school is living in a land of make believe, or is promoting students to become future factory workers and we have seen where that path has lead. You think little Paul or Jan look at there dad being laid off and say to themselves "boy I can't wait to be a factory worker like my dad". These new students will be creating new jobs, they look at the adults nowadays as people that can't even use their computer correctly, and communicate on a global level through social networking sites that span every inch on the internet.  Students will eventually take the classes that the Merit are pushing in college as a core class. So how does them taking example Algebra II twice in their life help them get a job?
 I will defiantly be rooting for this bill. I just hope people that don’t come in contact with students every day ruin it for them.  They need this bill to pass!

 You people AND some of our legislators are nuts.  If anything, we need to completely redefine a high school diploma, the requirements have barely changed in 50 years thanks to decades of telling ourselves we're the smartest in the world and always will be.  Guess what, the rest of the world got a whole lot smarter, lessening the value of a traditional high school diploma.  Now a bachelor degree is the ticket to the middle class, not the upper class, and even that's in question now.  Michigan needs to change primary and secondary public education to a full year instead of nine months.  This will create ninth graders with a similar level of education as today's graduating seniors.  The remaining three years should be for traditional college prep or for advanced technical training that will create highly flexible and intelligent graduates ready to take on high technology jobs.  The reason you liberals thing we need a dumbing down of high school is because our public school system, led by an inflexible teachers' union and supported by the Teachers' Tenure Act, is broken and in desperate need of an overhaul.  By the way, a less-educated electorate is more likely to look to the government for solutions to their problems as opposed to looking to themselves.  Any surprises this bill was introduced by a Democrat?  For the record, I am neither Republican nor Democrat as I don't think a single party has all the answers (and they're both like pigs feeding at the trough anyway).

 Yes the public education system is in bad shape.  However, making all students comply with the same curriculum is not the answer.  I have three children and each of them is different and has different strengths and weaknesses.  One is very analytical and another is very artistic.  Making them both take calculus is not serving their needs.  The real issue is the lack of educational choice brought on by the public education system.  Government run education is a bad system.

I don't disagree all kids are different but to suggest a relaxation of standards is absolutely ludicrous. We need to be going the opposite direction if we want any chance for this state to become relevant again. You know, I really didn't want to take home ec in school because I didn't expect I'd be sewing too many gym bags. But I had to and not only did it not kill me, I actually learned something. The point is, our kids need a thorough, well-rounded education in ALL subjects and at the highest level possible in order to give them options they might never have otherwise known they had. Don't expect much from them and they're guaranteed to meet your expectations.

Wrong move, wrong legislation.

We struggled to finally put some meaning into a high school diploma again.  There is no sense in finding ways to again water down that meaning by watering down the graduation requirements and curriculum.    

changeagent:

Government run education is a bad system.

I agree. I do not agree because that is the case, we should abandon public education and move toward private education.

This is a bad bill. Public education needs to improve, and lowering standards to improve graduation numbers will certainly not accomplish that goal. Whether one child is analytical and another is artistic doesn't change the fact that there are certain basic knowledge requirements for us all. I'm pretty sure calculus is not required for high school graduation.

 

 

 On the surface it may sound like it but do you really think every student is 4 year college material and do they all want to go to college.  Who will do the non-college jobs?  We will have to import more illegal aliens as no 4 year college student wants to do some of the service jobs out there.  Let people have a choice, those that want to do college great (if you can afford it) those that want to fix your furnace, assist the doctor in the office, bake cakes at the bakery learn at the various tech centers.  Why eliminate the tech centers?

 You are correct, this (CTE) is an option to our education system that supplements education whether going to college or not.  I suppose once all humans are cloned then 1 way works but until then we need to provide variety and options for students.  Lets pass this bill.

 You gotta read the bill.  That is not what is says.  This provides options for both college bound and non-college bound.  Do you really think everyone needs to be the same, say an engineer.  Who will bake the bread at the bakery, who will help the dentist clean your teeth, who will put pressure on your wound at the accident site.  Probably a person who needs a little different education than an electrical engineer.  Thus why are we trying to create clones?  Jobs are not clones?  You must assume that a person who goes to an EMT class at a tech center is and will be stupid because they took that instead of trig.  This my friend isn't watering down but tayloring education to provide meaninful learning for a majority of kids.  When you went to high school or if you have kids now, you really think they all will try to learn trig?  Only some will have an interest.  Yes I am using trig as an example but it could be some science class or geometry, or a foreign language.  Either way, we cannot try to clone the kids.  Won't work, sounds good but won't work.

 Who should decide what is best for your child, the government or the parent and child.  Provide the opportunity.  Read the bill, this isn't dumbing down.  Where do you guys get this from???  It allows me to take a health science class instead of a geology class.  I think there is a need for both but a student cant take 15 classes a day.  The bill does not allow a studnent to take 5 gym classes a day.

All of you that think this is dumbing down, educate yourself on what the bill actually allows a student to do.  They have choices by certified teachers.  I can now take human anatomy instead of biology for my science education.  Currently biology is the class, why is taking human anatomy dumbing down and watering down your education????

 You got it right?  We are not robots/clones.  Pass this bill.  If we don't we will have the half of the kids go on to college and those we try to make them but they don't want to, can't afford to, have no interest in, will be left to do what.  We will actually dumb down the US with no choice.  As long as the choices are real eduation, lets do it.

 This bill and you people who want it passed are a joke.  You are the reason Michigan is becoming less competitive instead of more competitive.  So let's give kids the skills to work at McDonald's.  That's your solution to the problems our state faces?  Get real.  I agree 100% that college is not for everyone.  I also agree that skill-based career training is an appropriate and acceptable alternative to a college education.  But dumbing down our education system (and that IS what this bill does) by creating a watered down "general diploma" is not the solution.  As I've said before, we need to be more aggressive with public school education, not less aggressive.  We need our kids finishing 9th grade to academically be where our current graduates are.  THEN spend the next three years on either college prep OR a career-path education.  This will allow students to tailor (not "taylor" as my general diploma holder states below) their education in a way that they are able to generate real earnings that can support a family.  Otherwise, all you're doing is creating a bunch of people barely able to rise above minimum wage because nobody set any real expectation for them to be successful.  But again, this is exactly the type of voter Democrats love - someone unable to support himself and his family and blames everybody else because he doesn't have an opportunity to advance his position.  LANSING MUST NOT PASS THIS BILL IF MICHIGAN IS TO BECOME COMPETITIVE AGAIN.

 I agree with you.  The reason this bill should pass or a bill close to this is to give the choice that you suggest.  This bill will take that away and leave many kids who you say are not college bound students with less than they have now.  How do you provide the choice you are suggesting (skill-based education) if we take away the skill-based education facilities and teachers.  Do you hire them into the current public schools to do that.  Then nothing changed and it cost a lot of money to do that nothing.  We don't need to dumb down, we need to provide choice such as I can take anatomy and physiology instead of biology because I want to be in healthcare.  In additon I can learn some hands on healthcare in this anatomy class.  Why not continue to offer that.

All of that aside, can't help it but if all students go to college who will work at McDonalds?

searay:

All of that aside, can't help it but if all students go to college who will work at McDonalds?

The kids going to High School saving for college, and the young people going to college paying for it.

 One of my concerns is people who insist on using terms such as "dumbing down" or "lower requirements" to describe the direction of this bill. The sad fact is not everyone is financially able, intellectually able, or has the drive to handle a 4 year or more year education. Even if everyone could, the job market is not matched to that goal. There are many entry level jobs available for people with specialized skills in the service industry. Career Technical Education provides a valuable service in Michigan educating students to fill these vacancies. The Tech center where I am a Para-pro has programs including machining, welding, automotive repair, broadcasting, business, retailing, and powersports. Every one of these programs provides the basic skills for entry level positions which means these students can become contributing members of society right out of high school. We also provide them with job searching and job retaining skills, such as resume's, interview practice, and try to instill the values which employers want such as attitude and importance of good attendance.

Many of our students continue on to more advanced trade schools, community colleges or other post-secondary venues. Some will always be technicians, some may become parts specialists, and some may end up owning the business. The next time you pay $75 to $100 dollars an hour to repair your car, snowmobile, or motorcycle, thank a Career Tech center or other trade school.

The option for this type of training has to be an available part of Michigan's Curriculum or many talanted young people will be lost on the way to College. I was one of them 40 years ago.

You seem to imply that graduation requirements are now so stringent that someone not bound for college has difficulty passing courses now required for graduation. I don't believe this to be true. Whether a student goes on to university, community college, a trade school, or directly into the workforce has more to do with attitude, ambition, career preference, and finances than his or her ability to pass the courses now required for graduation.

There are basic skills needed, no matter your career choice, and high school is where those basic skills should be taught. To reduce those requiements is to send our children into the adult world unprepared and uncompetitive.

 This is the last thing that should be done!  We need to become more competative. The requirements for High School are not that hard, if the student just applies themselves.  If the student needs additional help, there are always special classes that they can take. 

doctortom:

Many of our students continue on to more advanced trade schools, community colleges or other post-secondary venues. Some will always be technicians, some may become parts specialists, and some may end up owning the business. The next time you pay $75 to $100 dollars an hour to repair your car, snowmobile, or motorcycle, thank a Career Tech center or other trade school.

The option for this type of training has to be an available part of Michigan's Curriculum or many talanted young people will be lost on the way to College. I was one of them 40 years ago.

This is absolutely true. I think that the bill is really useful in motivating people that don't have certain abilities to pursue further education. Saying that the bill is "dumbing down" requirements is stupid and absolutely counterproductive. Trade schools are absolutely necessary and many of the students there have very good and profitable jobs later on.

doctortom:

...

Many of our students continue on to more advanced trade schools, community colleges or other post-secondary venues. ...

And the problem is, they populated the remedial classes in core academic disciplines -- language arts, math, civics -- required to earn an Associate's degree, etc.  The new high school graduation and curriculum requirements are designed to minimize or put an end to that kind of waste in post-secondary education time and resources.

The option for this type of training has to be an available part of Michigan's Curriculum or many talanted young people will be lost on the way to College. I was one of them 40 years ago.

The new high school graduation requirements do not / will not put an end to the vocational education opportunity, as this comment suggests.  They will strengthen it.

 

 

Algebra ll is not meaningful to every student.  In fact, studies show that only 15% of Algebra ll course content is ever used by even the most technical professions.  Further, if we aren't going to require every student to pass advanced Shakespeare, these math requirements are fundamentally discriminatory.  Every student needs to be challenged, yes, but Algebra ll is not even useful for the vast majority of professions, therefore it should be eliminated as a required course.