Michigan Votes Forum

 let's hope he does a better job than the other democrat you elected twice. SHE is having a hard time getting started, much less getting us out of this mess.

She's been quite busy cleaning up a mess left for her too. Seems to be a pattern. Repubs make a mess, Dems clean it up.

 yu must be joking.. she's been twiddling her thumbs for six years, yet to do ANYTHING productive towards the goal of saving michigan.

if you think she has, i'd welcome a list.

Led the successful fight to raise the minimum wage for the first time in a decade after years of Republican opposition.

Created the 21st Century Jobs Fund to encourage technology companies to invest in Michigan’s economy – convinced companies like Google and United Solar Ovonics to bring jobs to Michigan.

Vigorously defended affirmative action and unequivocally opposed the anti-affirmative action ballot initiative.

Created the Jobs Today program, which is putting thousands of Michigan citizens to work right now by accelerating much needed construction projects.

Signed legislation to protect our Great Lakes from dumping toxins, and committed to reducing mercury emissions 90% by 2015 to protect our water and our citizens from this harmful pollutant.

Signed targeted tax cuts to keep manufacturing jobs in Michigan – companies like Hemlock Semiconductor and American Axle are bringing jobs to Michigan and keeping them here.

Invested in public education at record levels and created rigorous new curriculum standards to ensure that every student can succeed in the 21st century economy.

Extended affordable prescription drug coverage and health coverage to 292,000 Michigan citizens, and proposed the MI First Health Care Plan, which will provide access to affordable health insurance for 500,000 uninsured people in our state.

jmangan:

Led the successful fight to raise the minimum wage for the first time in a decade after years of Republican opposition.

<which did WHAT to save michigan? nothing, as now it costs more for products and services. thanks jen.>

Created the 21st Century Jobs Fund to encourage technology companies to invest in Michigan’s economy – convinced companies like Google and United Solar Ovonics to bring jobs to Michigan.

<two companies in, thousands out. thanks jen.>

Vigorously defended affirmative action and unequivocally opposed the anti-affirmative action ballot initiative.

<affirmative action does NOTHING to get this state out of it's financial mess. but it DOES tie up our money defending a useless policy.> 

Created the Jobs Today program, which is putting thousands of Michigan citizens to work right now by accelerating much needed construction projects.

<sort of like the slavery of the C.C.C.??? thanks jen.>

Signed legislation to protect our Great Lakes from dumping toxins, and committed to reducing mercury emissions 90% by 2015 to protect our water and our citizens from this harmful pollutant.

<she also signed legislation to ALLOW the dumping of toxins in our lakes... thanks jen.>

Signed targeted tax cuts to keep manufacturing jobs in Michigan – companies like Hemlock Semiconductor and American Axle are bringing jobs to Michigan and keeping them here.

<nope, american axle has closed SEVERAL of it's plants. hemlock is moving. THANKS JEN.>

Invested in public education at record levels and created rigorous new curriculum standards to ensure that every student can succeed in the 21st century economy.

<you mean dumped billions down a black hole. THANKS JEN.> 

Extended affordable prescription drug coverage and health coverage to 292,000 Michigan citizens, and proposed the MI First Health Care Plan, which will provide access to affordable health insurance for 500,000 uninsured people in our state.

<paid for by ANOTHER TAX INCREASE. THANKS JEN...>

now, not one of these things has actually SUCCEEDED IN BRINGING MICHIGAN OUT OF IT'S CURRENT SITUATION. let me know when you actually have a success to boast about.

I gather you have another opinion of progress, based not on fact, but rather on your notion of things. If you would care to do some research, you would find quite a few false statements in your post. You don't have to admit to them, that would be too much to ask of you. But just for your own knowledge, it may be helpful when your kibbitzing at the bar tonight. No, I'm not going to do it for you. This is your assignment.

My Dad, if he were alive, would be quite surprised to here that his stint in the CCC was slavery. He was glad to have the work, and enjoyed the friendships he made there his entire life. He used to show me trees he planted in Northern Michigan when he was in the CCC.

 my dad was in the army air corps. he showed me pictures of the cities he bombed fighting for our freedom.

the c.c.c. was a poorly financed, poorly paid, poorly thought out project that amounted to conditions much worse than many slaves had to endure.

yes, it was a job, and the only job to be had, but at such a low wage, and under such poor conditions that, if enacted today using black people, you would be up in arms about a return to slavery.

by the way, even the emancipation proclaimation didn't free mary todd lincoln's four slaves at the white house. she kept them till she was forced to give them up by her son some years after lincoln's death. the proclaimation  only freed slaves in CONTESTED (CONFEDERATE) STATES, not the union states.

crazycajun:

 my dad was in the army air corps. he showed me pictures of the cities he bombed fighting for our freedom.

How interesting.  My father was decorated for doing his fighting on the ground.  He came close to weeping whenever we saw pictures showing what Allied bombs did to those cities and their civilian populations.  

 did that stop him from killing the enemy?

no.

Civilians were not my father's enemy when he fought in WW II.  

 every german was the enemy. i still have family in germany, and they still say that every man, woman, and child was the enemy, as we were theirs.

obviously you haven't heard about the hitler youth? the youth bund? arian brides?

no, i guess not.

typical.

Civilians were not the enemy for my father or the troops he led during World War II.  They did not target civilians.

crazycajun:

 my dad was in the army air corps. he showed me pictures of the cities he bombed fighting for our freedom.

My Dad was in the CCC years before WWII. He was also in the army during the war. He didn't talk much about his time in the Pacific theater.

Forgive me if I take his account of conditions during that time over yours. A little research supports my Father's accounting.

"Although the CCC was probably the most popular New Deal program, it never became a permanent agency. A Gallup poll of April 18, 1936, asked "Are you in favor of the CCC camps?"; 82% of respondents said yes, including 92% of Democrats and 67% of Republicans."

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not your own facts.

 i don't forgive you. you have your facts a little skewed. the reason so many people were in favor of the c.c.c. was that so many people were unemployed. of course they were in favor of the only job in town. or in the county, or the state.

now, how do you suggest we handle that same unemployment today? build camps in the woods to plant trees? too late, we already plant trees by the thousands. even little schoolkids plant trees.

how about building statues and fountains that nobody needs. you'd have a hard time getting the money appropriated for such nonsense today, especially with a republican majority. look at how the pork in the 'incentive' is being scrutinized.

how about we use them to break strikes and unions, like some were used back then? yeah... we could use them to build bridges to nowhere.

we could spend more of our gross domestic product on do nothing projects that amount to nothing more than BUSYWORK for our unemployed. the hoover dam ruined the c.c.c. as it emptied several camps overnight.

you can't get some of these people to stand in line in an air conditioned office much less spend a year in a tent planting trees. that's what the GIMMEE generation has done to the people.

You give no reference or basis for your statements crazy, other than your opinion. Just saying something might work in a bar where most of the patrons are loaded, but not here. You need to back it up with more than just bluster, or upper case typing.

crazycajun:

 my dad was in the army air corps. he showed me pictures of the cities he bombed fighting for our freedom.

Wow. And thats something to be PROUD of ??

Disgusting !!   Your father should be ashamed,  not of following orders, but showing his son something that was wrong and immoral.

They were NOT the enemy and posed no threat to the united states.

Your evil  is only trumped by your ignorance.

From this US ARMY VET,  all I can say is..... people like you make me sick.

Thank God republicanism is DEAD.

Pfft,  wont do  here.............

Spit spit hack ptuh ptuh spit.

 so who did you kill that wasn't our enemy?

iraquis, kurds, afghans, central americans, mogadishuans?

or were you just a cook?

i don't think i'd let you mess with my mess, but the army has been known to be desparate.

i made my own decision about bombing the cities where my family started. and i decided it was the right thing to do.

have you made your own decision about me-lai?

obviously not. hypocrite.

liar.

as a cop, i've killed people who were not my enemy, but they were trying to kill me. happens every day. americans kill americans.

on the surface, it sounds disgusting, but when you look at it closely, those who tried to kill me deserved to die.

all you look at is the surface.

how did a socialist get into the army? i thought they screened you people out. obviously you lied about the whole 'OVERTHROW THE COUNTRY' THING.

TrueBlue:

Spit spit hack ptuh ptuh spit.

you really should gargle when you finish playing 'kneel & bob'

It is fundamentally disgusting to see someone boast of having killed other humans. 

For anyone in the US military – past or present – to boast of having killed or harmed civilians, is despicable.

 was your father boasting when he told you of his service?

no, he was stating facts.

i'm not boasting either.

neither are the people in harms way today. but you forget about them. they are useless pawns in bush's war. expendable,

by the way, more people died today in detroit than in bush's war. but you don't hear that on the alphabet news.

why is that?

crazycajun:

i'm not boasting either.

All you do is boast.  Crow and boast and tell fibs.  Brag, self-aggrandize, blow and pat yourself on the back -- that is what you do, all day every day.  An empty, no-substance, boastful tub is what you are, crazy, and everybody with a lick of sense here knows and recognizes it.

 all you do is show how weak willed and malleable you are.

stupidity is the word i'd use to describe the rest of your stellar traits.

 by the way, insane.

you never have answered the question.

what made YOU an anti-hunter?

What made you an anti-everything?

 not anti-everything.

i'm pro-gun. anti-abortion. pro-death penalty, i'm all for lower taxes, less government, better business climate, i believe in the power of the individual, not the state, and i believe that your rights end at my property line, not my nose.

i believe in treating my customers like guests, with all that entails, and i also believe in my customers ACTING LIKE GUESTS.

i believe in self defense, self reliance, self sufficiency, and self-made-men.

i believe in god, and i believe in having faith in my fellow man.

i also believe i am right.

you got a problem with that?

Not at all. I respect the minority view.

 but you USE the majority to impose your will with the iron fist of government.

that's okay, as your nanny, i have banned you from voting, as you may vote to pass 'unsavory' legislation that would increase your rights and freedoms. you may not vote again ever.

you wanted to be nannied.  you got it.

crazycajun:

 but you USE the majority to impose your will with the iron fist of government.

That's called democracy.

crazycajun:

that's okay, as your nanny, i have banned you from voting, as you may vote to pass 'unsavory' legislation that would increase your rights and freedoms. you may not vote again ever.

That's called your secret wish.

 sorry, jman. that is your express desire. it's what you ASKED FOR when you placed me in the position of responsibility for you even after you were warned of the consequences of such actions.

you have no one to blame but yourself.

consider it the ultimate outcome of the nanny state.

you asked for it... you got it.

by the way, as your nanny, i ban you from thinking. you're not very good at it and someone MIGHT get hurt.

There you go insulting me again. Out of ideas, out of talking points, so resort to the insult.

As for you being anyone's "nanny", seems as since you follow the Republican ideology, and I am a Democrat, and Democrats are in the majority, that would indicate I am taking care of you, in a political sense.

I don't mind either. I'm sure you have some good qualities, your just keeping them well hidden under all that bluster and bs.

 sorry jman...

you asked to be nannied. over and over and over again.

i'm only granting your wish.

not very pleasant, is it?

you gave up responsibility for your health and welfare. you gave me the responsibility.

no. you cannot have it back.

it's amazing how your tune changes when you realize the error of your ways.

it's also amazing how inconvenient democracy becomes when a democrat doesn't get his way.

Whew, typical liberal blaming the debt on past presidents. If you go back farther than Bush you will see where it started including the democrats agenda to turn our country into a socialist country. Clinton broke the rules concerning his immoral actions while in office but I guess you liberals consider a president that indulges in infidelities and immoral acts okay in your books. It is not in my best interest to have a president that will not even provide a birth certificate to prove his eligibility as president to the citizens of the United States. Above and beyond the law is the choice of voters these days.

Concerning anti-hunters I am very well versed in their actions and activities. If you or anyone think that wild animals can co-exist with out the God given activity of hunting as stewards of earth you and they need to attend a school in reality. Most anti hunters incorporate their anti everything beliefs. 1. With out hunting there is no need for guns 2. Animals are equal to humans and have the same rights as humans even though they are animals. As Ingrid Newkirk from PETA state a pigs life is as valuable as a human childs life.

Hunters are managers who put the rules inplace to control over hunting as well as abuse of the animal. No other group can even come close. There are three groups. 1. Hunters 2 anti-hunters ( who do not want anyone to do something they wouldn't) 3. Non Hunters ( who chose not to hunt but are not radicals who want to impose their feelings on every one else)

As I said if anyone thinks that animals can co-exist and believe hunting should be abolished, they should get out of their city areas and move where there are many potentially dangerous animals that could pose a threat to families as they have in the past and will in the future.

jmangan, I see that you are stimulated to believe your own wash and not that of others. Because someone doesnt agree with you and your political preferences you accuse them of hating America by asking such a stupid question. Seeing you are so good at asking questions maybe you could tell us what you have done to enhance your community or your government that makes your opinions so much more important than others.

One thing I can see jmangan has done to enhance the community here is to present a rational alternative to irrational discourse.

If you were not there or did not go through the process of survival and no nothing about enemies within concerning some civilian forces you have no right to comment on what those that were faced with survival under times of war had to endure. Those that have never been their live in a fantasy world. I suppose if you were walking in the park and someone was going to cut your family with a knife or shoot them with a gun you would just stand there and let it happen because the criminal is a civilian.

In all wars there are casualties and as far as American soldiers are concerned civilians were suspects not targets and unless you have been there you will know nothing about it. You have no right!

Al T:

In all wars there are casualties and as far as American soldiers are concerned civilians were suspects not targets and unless you have been there you will know nothing about it. You have no right!

Bunk.

Al T:

you have no right to comment

Yes, you do.

The fact you haven't done something you don't approve of doesn't surrender your right to voice your opinion.

Gypsy,

I couldnt agree with you more that we do have our right to present opposition to actions not to your liking. There is not one military person present or past that will say that they agree with citizen casualities. I remember the rights expressed by those that opposed the viet nam war when I arrived back in the U.S. as a soldier that did a tour of duty. I remember getting off the plane and while exiting the gates having those that have the right to their opinions spit and throw stuff on myself and others that accompanied me back to our earned soil.

I have not been able to remember one military personel that felt good about citizen casualties and that is true today. There has not been one President, (Commander and Chief) that has personally caused casualties against civilians with intent to do so from our country. Other countries yes. I can not figure out how anyone can blame a President of the United States or military personel for accidental civilian casualities. To see the big picture concerning accidental deaths of civilians by military personel we would all have to walk in those shoes as so many have.

There are in fact quite a few military personnel who are responsible for, and thereby agree, with civilian casualties, whether they say it or not. My Lai, Wounded Knee, the Dresden fire bombing, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Iraq (both the Gulf War and the more recent war) and Afghanistan, to name a few of the USs' attacks on civilians.The military even has a name for expected civilian casualties, colateral damage.

If you were spit on returning from Viet Nam, you can finally verify this urban myth. I lived through those years, and saw or read of no returning vets being spit on. In fact, many vets joined the war protesters on their return. This myth was used by Bush the First to gain public support for the troops, and thus his Gulf War, and latter expanded on by his son to again concentrate the publics patriotism on the soldier, and ignore the reason, or lack of, for the war itself.

As for Commanders-in-Chief who have intentially caused civilian casualties, not accidents, I am surprised at your memory lapse. I will just name a few of the more recent. With a little research you can find more. Truman, Johnson, Nixon, Reagan, Bush, Bush II.......

We don't have to "walk in the shoes" of these men to know what they did, and why they did it.

I see the picture now. A person such as the current president that denounces American and presidential integrity to appease the crowd that will listen. Foreign countries that declared war on the U.S. such as the Japs and Germans in WWII are the innocent parties as were their citizens. Young and old citizens in London during the german bombardment meant nothing, Pearl Harbor meant nothing, 9-11 meant nothing because it is outside your ideals of world peace. You express your hatred for war time presidents and military, but only those of the United States.

I have no memory loss. I remember quite well who bombed who and the reasons America reacted. I remember the statistics presented concerning the use of the atom bomb on a country that attacked the U.S. with out cause, that saved  hundreds of thousands of American soldiers and civilian lifes. I remember the revolutionary war being fought to create the United States, I remember the civil war being fought to free the slaves that made them free Americans. I remember the Alamo. All the above I was not there physically but as an American I was there. I remember the hippies that spit on my uniform as well others. (I was there and it appears you may have been one that was doing the spitting).

As you go back in history your presentation appears to support the actions of the oppressors, those that created the wars you speak of. As our current president you have blame for the U.S., its soldiers, leadership and people. I guess my American flag flies for different reasons than yours if you have one.

This thread started as a question about anti hunters then it got off on anti American. Back to anti everythings of which there are many including the anti hunter, anti firearm, anti constitutionalists. You walk in your shoes and I will walk in mine. Take care Gypsy, God Bless

I'm afraid you don't see the picture. I didn't say which country was wrong or right, I stated the facts of civilian casualties in war. More Germans and Japanese civilians were killed in WWII than American. That doesn't make us wrong and them right. The Japanese military attacked our military. The US attacked their civilians to save, as you say, thousands of our soldiers lives. Was that right or wrong? We all can make a personal judgement on that. To say the Japanese attacked us without cause is to be naive. To say it was right or wrong is again a personal opinion. The Germans attacked England, we came to Englands aid, rightly so in my opinion, but still an opinion. The English, along with the Americans and other allies, fire bombed Dresden, killing many more civilians than the bombing of London. Some have classified it a war crime. You be the judge. The Germans murdered 6 million Jews. Does killing German civilians balance the scales?

My "presentation" in no way supports the actions of oppressors. It supports the right of civilians to be safe in their homes and towns rather than made the sacrificial lamb for the actions of any government, ours or foreign countries. I don't wrap myself in the flag, claiming my country right or wrong. I love my homeland, and strive to make my government live up to our professed ideals. I hope for peace, not just here, but throughout the world. Our "current president" seems to have that goal also.

What you are "remembering" is a feeling that we are always on the right side of war. We are not. There have been times in our history when we were on the wrong side. I love my country enough to forgive her those errors, and do my part to keep her on the right side, or better yet, completely out of war.

I didn't spit on you. I was too busy working to support a family to protest the Viet Nam war. But I respect those that did, and those that were forced, or felt the need, to fight in an unnecessary war. Glad you made it back. I hope neither you or your children ever have to fight an unnecessary war again.

BTW, I'm not anti-hunter. Don't really know why someone started this thread. Maybe one of those NRA dudes who thinks it's more important to have a gun than a job.