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Latest post 03-04-2009 9:38 AM by jmangan. 48 replies.
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  • 01-01-2001 12:00 AM

    2009 House Bill 4231 (Authorize tax break for photovoltaics )

    Introduced in the House on February 11, 2009

    Click here to view bill details.
  • 02-16-2009 8:29 AM In reply to

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4231 (Authorize tax break for photovoltaics )

     This absolutely has to happen. Now get the Electric companies to rent our roofs!

  • 02-25-2009 9:17 AM In reply to

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4231 (Authorize tax break for photovoltaics )

     I agree. I try to be a green as I can, composter, I recycle everything, I have rain barrels, etc. I've looked into getting a solar system but it is just cost prohibitive. If I bought one that would cover just have my usage it would take almost 20 years to pay for itself. Additionally the utility company should be required to pay for any electricity that is fed back into the grid also, maybe not at the same high rate, but some sort of compensation. This would help offset the cost of purchasing and installing a unit.

     

  • 02-25-2009 9:49 AM In reply to

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4231 (Authorize tax break for photovoltaics )

     it's a shame that voltaics don't have a long enough lifespan to reach the payback period.

    then there is the factor of what it takes environmentally to produce photovoltaics.

    i think a nuclear plant would be a much better choice.

    zero carbon footprint, no emissions, and only twelve pounds of nuclear waste to bury deep in some salt mine every ten years.

     

    michigan constitution,  article 1. Sec. 6.

    Every person has a right to keep and bear arms for the defense of himself and the state.

     keep your powder dry.

    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." Bovard 1994

  • 02-25-2009 9:53 AM In reply to

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4231 (Authorize tax break for photovoltaics )

    As is your habit crazy, you left out one little risk factor, a Chernobyl like accident.

  • 02-25-2009 10:07 AM In reply to

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4231 (Authorize tax break for photovoltaics )

     oh... you're worried about RISK?

    what about an automobile accident? does that make you quit driving? NO.

    what about a plane crash? does that make you ban airline flights? NO.

    chernobyl was a disaster waiting to happen, which is why the french changed all their nuclear plants from the russian design they WERE using to the american design they use now.

    by the way, in the fifty plus years of nuclear power, there have been exactly TWO such incidents. chernobyl, and three mile island.

    with over four thousand units operating worldwide, i'd say that wasn't too bad.

    by the way, large portions of our desert southwest are STILL irradiated from our own nuclear tests. you don't see people dying daily from those, do you? NO.

    now, if you are SO concerned with risk, then cut YOUR RISK of injury and death by NOT SMOKING, NOT DRINKING, NOT EATING MOST FOODS, NOT DRINKING MICHIGAN WATER, ESPECIALLY FROM THE LEAD PIPES OF DETROIT, AND IMMEDIATELY DIVORCE YOUR WIFE. while you are at it, DON'T GO TO THE BATHROOM, because that is where most people die in the home.

    good luck with that.

    michigan constitution,  article 1. Sec. 6.

    Every person has a right to keep and bear arms for the defense of himself and the state.

     keep your powder dry.

    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." Bovard 1994

  • 02-25-2009 11:31 AM In reply to

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4231 (Authorize tax break for photovoltaics )

    True, their lifespan is limited for something non-mechanical. I guess it would depend on the initial cost of the system to determine if it is even worthwhile..

    I agree, I think we need more nuclear (it's nucular) power plants and to step away from the fossil fuel burning. They are safer than they have ever been and greener too.

     

  • 02-25-2009 11:41 AM In reply to

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4231 (Authorize tax break for photovoltaics )

     we are already using nuclear power, as our power companies buy excess production during peak periods from nuclear plants served by the tennessee valley authority, which has nuclear plants. also, new orleans is served by waterford three, and has been safely for the last twenty seven years or so.

    saves us many trainloads of coal, and we don't have to dump the ash.

    michigan constitution,  article 1. Sec. 6.

    Every person has a right to keep and bear arms for the defense of himself and the state.

     keep your powder dry.

    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." Bovard 1994

  • 02-25-2009 12:25 PM In reply to

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4231 (Authorize tax break for photovoltaics )

    I know, but we need more in order to take the coal burning plants off line. I live within view of Fermi, I don't feel in danger either. It is actually kind of scenic at time when it makes its own clouds.

     

  • 02-25-2009 12:37 PM In reply to

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4231 (Authorize tax break for photovoltaics )

    MMMMM. Dear Robofsemi,  I wonder how scenic it will look in 100 years when the nuclear waste tanks are driving back and forth across the united states begging anyone to bury it. As they are now. At this point in time no one wants to take it. Nuclear Plants take a long time to create and their waste has no where to go. Do you really want to leave this to future generations when there are plenty of alternatives to turn to? Remember te first computer? It was the size of a large building. Soon they will be saying, remember the first solar panels? They only lasted 30 years. And they were huge. And they were the beginning of the cleaning and respecting of the planet we were given.

     

  • 02-25-2009 12:45 PM In reply to

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4231 (Authorize tax break for photovoltaics )

     In a hundred years there may very well be a means of disposal that is environmentally friendly. I know now they are researching reprocessing to cut down the decay time.

     

  • 02-25-2009 1:40 PM In reply to

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4231 (Authorize tax break for photovoltaics )

     i'd rather them reprocess it to power another reactor. much more efficient use. it never becomes waste that way.

    michigan constitution,  article 1. Sec. 6.

    Every person has a right to keep and bear arms for the defense of himself and the state.

     keep your powder dry.

    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." Bovard 1994

  • 02-25-2009 1:43 PM In reply to

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4231 (Authorize tax break for photovoltaics )

     the problem is, zero,that they only last about eight years, ten if you're lucky.

    people are working on the problem, but they remain cost prohibitive. with sometimes FIFTY YEAR payback periods.

    a little too long for me. i'll take nuclear plants anytime.

    and a few more nuclear warships while we're at it.

    michigan constitution,  article 1. Sec. 6.

    Every person has a right to keep and bear arms for the defense of himself and the state.

     keep your powder dry.

    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." Bovard 1994

  • 02-25-2009 9:24 PM In reply to

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4231 (Authorize tax break for photovoltaics )

    Again crazy, a little research goes along way.

    "Life-cycle analyses show that the energy intensity of typical solar photovoltaic technologies is rapidly evolving. In 2000 the energy payback time was estimated as 8 to 11 years, but more recent studies suggest that technological progress has reduced this to 1.5 to 3.5 years for crystalline silicon PV systems.

    Thin film technologies now have energy pay-back times in the range of 1-1.5 years (S.Europe). With lifetimes of such systems of at least 30 years, the EROEI is in the range of 10 to 30. They thus generate enough energy over their lifetimes to reproduce themselves many times (6-31 reproductions, the EROEI is a bit lower) depending on what type of material, balance of system (or BOS), and the geographic location of the system."

    Me thinks you are again talking out of your **s.

  • 02-25-2009 9:27 PM In reply to

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4231 (Authorize tax break for photovoltaics )

     life cycle analyses tells nothing of payback period. newer technology is not less expensive, thus pushing the payback period higher and higher. some as high as fifty years. the average mortgage is thirty. who's going to pay for those? the government?

    i don't notice THEM using photovoltaics either.

    michigan constitution,  article 1. Sec. 6.

    Every person has a right to keep and bear arms for the defense of himself and the state.

     keep your powder dry.

    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." Bovard 1994

  • 02-25-2009 9:33 PM In reply to

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4231 (Authorize tax break for photovoltaics )

    Again crazy, just bluster and upper case. Your mind is lazy. Give it a workout, gain some knowledge. Backup what you claim with factual basis, if you can.

  • 02-26-2009 8:09 AM In reply to

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4231 (Authorize tax break for photovoltaics )

     Thank Goodness there is someone who backs their spewing with facts. Like they haven't been out there just waiting for us all.

    Thank you for your good brain.

  • 02-26-2009 1:09 PM In reply to

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4231 (Authorize tax break for photovoltaics )

     before you go out and buy photovoltaics, get yourself a twelve volt refrigerator. photovoltaics only provide twelve volts.

    then go out and get yourself some twelve volt light bulbs. and a gas oven. or a wood stove. photovoltaics don't put out enough ampereage to cook dinner.

    then buy some big lead acid batteries to store that power for when it's not brightly lit outside. like NIGHTIME. you DO use electricity in the dark, don't you?

    remember, the little patch of cells on the roof will probably not be enough to power your house, so remember to donate a lot of land to your POWER CELL FARM.

    the technology isn't ready for us yet. it's not yet proven. it's not yet cheap and available enough, and it's manufacture isn't yet clean enough to wean everybody off of grid power anytime soon.

    if it were, you'd already have photovoltaics running your house and you'd already have cut yourself off from the grid and the big, bad power companies. but you don't. which speaks volumes.

    michigan constitution,  article 1. Sec. 6.

    Every person has a right to keep and bear arms for the defense of himself and the state.

     keep your powder dry.

    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." Bovard 1994

  • 02-26-2009 1:30 PM In reply to

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4231 (Authorize tax break for photovoltaics )

     If ignorance is bliss you must be joyous. I don't know what planet your living on but you might what to renew your card -the dip stick doesn't seem to be touching the oil. I would suggest anyone reading your rediculous banter to be forewarned-you never have enough facts to be valid. Poor thing.

  • 02-26-2009 2:24 PM In reply to

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4231 (Authorize tax break for photovoltaics )

     so, zero... how many photovoltaics do you have on your roof?

    what? waiting for your tax credit?

    i didn't think so.

    michigan constitution,  article 1. Sec. 6.

    Every person has a right to keep and bear arms for the defense of himself and the state.

     keep your powder dry.

    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." Bovard 1994

  • 02-26-2009 3:54 PM In reply to

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4231 (Authorize tax break for photovoltaics )

    When you run out of made up facts, start asking questions you answer yourself.

    Crazy's rules for discussion.

  • 02-26-2009 5:04 PM In reply to

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4231 (Authorize tax break for photovoltaics )

     so how many panels are on YOUR ROOF jman?

    i didn't think you had any either.

    pffft....

    michigan constitution,  article 1. Sec. 6.

    Every person has a right to keep and bear arms for the defense of himself and the state.

     keep your powder dry.

    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." Bovard 1994

  • 02-26-2009 6:16 PM In reply to

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4231 (Authorize tax break for photovoltaics )

    3

  • 02-26-2009 9:00 PM In reply to

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4231 (Authorize tax break for photovoltaics )

     i'll bet you have a wonderful time swapping that one little twelve volt plug back and forth on the things you need to use everyday.

    three cells wouldn't run a flashlight, much less your home.

    another lie....

    pffft....

     

    michigan constitution,  article 1. Sec. 6.

    Every person has a right to keep and bear arms for the defense of himself and the state.

     keep your powder dry.

    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." Bovard 1994

  • 02-26-2009 10:01 PM In reply to

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4231 (Authorize tax break for photovoltaics )

    You are way out of your element. Flayling around in the dark.

  • 02-27-2009 8:33 AM In reply to

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4231 (Authorize tax break for photovoltaics )

     Dear jmangan,

    Please don't waste your good brain and knowledge and a person who loves to cause anger in others. He feeds on it. He is not only

    ignorant he chooses not even to research his information. Five minutes of reading would give him the information to quiet his idiotic remarks but he chooses to argue for the sake of it. Wasted aggression. Wasted mind. Sad he can't put theat energy into something more helpful. I refuse to respond to him anymore. Thank Goodness there are MORE well informed people that the lazy ill informed. It's the only reason humanity has remained on the planet.

  • 02-27-2009 1:34 PM In reply to

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4231 (Authorize tax break for photovoltaics )

     so, zero.

    do you plan on putting photovoltaics on your house if this bill doesn't pass?

    why haven't you done so already?

    cost? reliability? long payback period? environmental impact from manufacture? low voltage? low amperage? inconvenience?

    come on.  you can tell us...

    step right up.

    michigan constitution,  article 1. Sec. 6.

    Every person has a right to keep and bear arms for the defense of himself and the state.

     keep your powder dry.

    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." Bovard 1994

  • 02-27-2009 8:29 PM In reply to

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4231 (Authorize tax break for photovoltaics )

    Zero has better things to do than knock your straw men down crazy.

    Thanks for the compliments, zero.

  • 02-27-2009 9:24 PM In reply to

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4231 (Authorize tax break for photovoltaics )

     i asked a simple question, and zero gets all in a huff. boy, he gives up EASY for somebody dedicated to environmental activism. especially when you ask how ACTIVE he really is.

    i'm all for tax breaks, but tax breaks for EVERYBODY not just targeted at high dollar tree huggers.

    if he has enough money to be able to afford photovoltaics, then he is one of the EVIL RICH, and he SHOULD be taxed more, shouldn't he?

    but he is a tree hugger, so all is forgiven.

    michigan constitution,  article 1. Sec. 6.

    Every person has a right to keep and bear arms for the defense of himself and the state.

     keep your powder dry.

    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." Bovard 1994

  • 02-28-2009 5:56 AM In reply to

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4231 (Authorize tax break for photovoltaics )

    crazycajun:

     i asked a simple question, and zero gets all in a huff. boy, he gives up EASY for somebody dedicated to environmental activism. especially when you ask how ACTIVE he really is.

    Zero sees right through you.  The sad thing is that your presence ruins this forum as an opportunity to actually discuss issues of importance to the people of Michigan.  

     

  • 02-28-2009 7:31 AM In reply to

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4231 (Authorize tax break for photovoltaics )

     how so?

    do i keep anyone else from posting? no.

    bandwidth is nearly unlimited, certainly out of the possibility of little ol' me taking up all of it.

    you could cut the posts in half if you quit replying to them with idiocy.

    you could ADD to the forum if you would ANSWER QUESTIONS instead of just being obnoxious.

    i think the term BETWERPED describes you perfectly.

     

    michigan constitution,  article 1. Sec. 6.

    Every person has a right to keep and bear arms for the defense of himself and the state.

     keep your powder dry.

    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." Bovard 1994

  • 02-28-2009 9:16 AM In reply to

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4231 (Authorize tax break for photovoltaics )

    "Life-cycle analyses show that the energy intensity of typical solar photovoltaic technologies is rapidly evolving. In 2000 the energy payback time was estimated as 8 to 11 years, but more recent studies suggest that technological progress has reduced this to 1.5 to 3.5 years for crystalline silicon PV systems.

    Thin film technologies now have energy pay-back times in the range of 1-1.5 years (S.Europe). With lifetimes of such systems of at least 30 years, the EROEI is in the range of 10 to 30. They thus generate enough energy over their lifetimes to reproduce themselves many times (6-31 reproductions, the EROEI is a bit lower) depending on what type of material, balance of system (or BOS), and the geographic location of the system."

    Trying to return the discussion to the topic.

  • 02-28-2009 5:15 PM In reply to

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4231 (Authorize tax break for photovoltaics )

     try and keep up...

    A solar cell may operate over a wide range of voltages (V) and currents (I). By increasing the resistive load on an irradiated cell continuously from zero (a short circuit) to a very high value (an open circuit) one can determine the maximum-power point, the point that maximizes V×I; that is, the load for which the cell can deliver maximum electrical power at that level of irradiation. (The output power is zero in both the short circuit and open circuit extremes).

    A high quality, monocrystalline silicon solar cell, at 25 °C cell temperature, may produce 0.60 volts open-circuit (Voc). The cell temperature in full sunlight, even with 25 °C air temperature, will probably be close to 45 °C, reducing the open-circuit voltage to 0.55 volts per cell. The voltage drops modestly, with this type of cell, until the short-circuit current is approached (Isc). Maximum power (with 45 °C cell temperature) is typically produced with 75% to 80% of the open-circuit voltage (0.43 volts in this case) and 90% of the short-circuit current. This output can be up to 70% of the Voc x Isc product. The short-circuit current (Isc) from a cell is nearly proportional to the illumination, while the open-circuit voltage (Voc) may drop only 10% with a 80% drop in illumination. Lower-quality cells have a more rapid drop in voltage with increasing current and could produce only 1/2 Voc at 1/2 Isc. The usable power output could thus drop from 70% of the Voc x Isc product to 50% or even as little as 25%. Vendors who rate their solar cell "power" only as Voc x Isc, without giving load curves, can be seriously distorting their actual performance.

    michigan constitution,  article 1. Sec. 6.

    Every person has a right to keep and bear arms for the defense of himself and the state.

     keep your powder dry.

    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." Bovard 1994

  • 02-28-2009 5:51 PM In reply to

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4231 (Authorize tax break for photovoltaics )

     so, how many photovoltaics is it going to take to put out the kilowatt hours of electricity you need to run your house?

    much more than anyone can afford.

     

    michigan constitution,  article 1. Sec. 6.

    Every person has a right to keep and bear arms for the defense of himself and the state.

     keep your powder dry.

    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." Bovard 1994

  • 03-01-2009 7:55 AM In reply to

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4231 (Authorize tax break for photovoltaics )

    Good job crazy! I'm proud of you. You did some research and actually contributed to the discussion in a constructive manner. I feel like a parent who just heard their child say his first words.

    I agree, photovoltaics are not at the developmental stage where they could be a viable alternative to electricity produced by the burning of fossil fuels, or supplied by nuclear power. This bill would help push the development and science along by increasing the market for solar cells. I'm sure you would agree, once the market takes hold, increases in efficiency will quickly follow. And any movement away from polluting fossil fuels can't be bad.

  • 03-01-2009 8:16 AM In reply to

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4231 (Authorize tax break for photovoltaics )

     we can move COMPLETELY away from fossil fuel and totally to nuclear. i would have thought that those of you who wish to emulate europe would have thought of that. france has A LOT of nuclear plants. all running safely, even the russian designed ones.

    other european countries have them as well. even african countries have nuclear plants. and the middle east uses them as well. you would think that the place that provides us with our oil to fire our plants would use all oil fired plants. but no. they use some nuclear.

  • 03-01-2009 11:56 AM In reply to

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4231 (Authorize tax break for photovoltaics )

    I certainly am in favor of nuclear being part of the mix, but until we decide how to safely store or reuse nuclear waste, we should procede with caution. What does France and the other countries mentioned do with their nuclear waste?

    I do not agree that we should rely on any one source for our energy.

  • 03-01-2009 3:14 PM In reply to

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4231 (Authorize tax break for photovoltaics )

     they use 'BREEDER REACTORS', the waste is enriched and used at other reactors. and besides, we're talking about ten pounds of waste which can be stored forever in old salt mines, harmless. there is a lead mine in africa that mines millions of tons of lead daily. this used to be millions of tons of uranium. radioactive. sitting out on the savanna. it didn't kill off everything on the planet, nor did it cause the death, doom and destruction that the anti-nuclear people used to rant about. it did this for millions of years, then it turned to lead.

    in effect, it created it's own shielding. all we must do is put it away and be patient. the problem will take care of itself. by the way, all the nuclear reactors in this country haven't produced a ton of waste yet, and that's since the 1950's. what they have produced is tons of irradiated by products, but we have gotten much better in dealing with those over the last thirty or so years.

    we have a vast source of raw radiation out in the desert, and on a few semi-vaporized atolls. but then again, we spin around a huge source of raw radiation, and have for billions of years. just as an aside... if you have ever driven a mazda RX-7, then you have driven a radioactive car. it was produced in a plant in hiroshima.

  • 03-01-2009 4:29 PM In reply to

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4231 (Authorize tax break for photovoltaics )

    A little searching brought up this about French nuclear power. Seems they still have an issue with the waste, though it appears to be more political than technical. At least that's how they are approaching it.

     


    Why the French Like Nuclear Energy by  FRONTLINE producer Jon Palfreman

    Civaux in southwestern France is a stereotypical rural French village with a square, a church and a small school. On a typical day, Monsieur Rambault, the baker, is up before dawn turning out baguettes and croissants. Shortly after, teacher Rene Barc opens the small school. There is a blacksmith, a hairdresser, a post office, a general store and a couple of bars. But overlooking the picturesque hamlet are two giant cooling towers from a nuclear plant, still under construction, a half-mile away. When the Civaux nuclear power plant comes on line sometime in the next 12 months, France will have 56 working nuclear plants, generating 76% of her electricity.

     

    In France, unlike in America, nuclear energy is accepted, even popular. Everybody I spoke to in Civaux loves the fact their region was chosen. The nuclear plant has brought jobs and prosperity to the area. Nobody I spoke to, nobody, expressed any fear. From the village school teacher, Rene Barc, to the patron of the Cafe de Sport bar, Valerie Turbeau, any traces of doubt they might have had have faded as they have come to know plant workers, visited the reactor site and thought about the benefits of being part of France's nuclear energy effort.

     

    France's decision to launch a large nuclear program dates back to 1973 and the events in the Middle East that they refer to as the "oil shock." The quadrupling of the price of oil by OPEC nations was indeed a shock for France because at that time most of its electricity came from oil burning plants. France had and still has very few natural energy resources. It has no oil, no gas and her coal resources are very poor and virtually exhausted.

     

    French policy makers saw only one way for France to achieve energy independence: nuclear energy, a source of energy so compact that a few pounds of fissionable uranium is all the fuel needed to run a big city for a year. Plans were drawn up to introduce the most comprehensive national nuclear energy program in history. Over the next 15 years France installed 56 nuclear reactors, satisfying its power needs and even exporting electricity to other European countries.

     

    There were some protests in the early 70s, but since then (with one important exception discussed below), the nuclear program has been popular and remarkably non controversial. How was France able to get its people to accept nuclear power? What is about French culture and politics that allowed them to succeed where most other countries have failed?

     

    Claude Mandil, the General Director for Energy and Raw Materials at the Ministry of Industry, cites at least three reasons. First, he says, the French are an independent people. The thought of being dependent for energy on a volatile region of the world such as the Middle East disturbed many French people. Citizens quickly accepted that nuclear might be a necessity. A popular French riposte to the question of why they have so much nuclear energy is "no oil, no gas, no coal, no choice."

     

    Second, Mandil cites cultural factors. France has a tradition of large, centrally managed technological projects. And, he says, they are popular. "French people like large projects. They like nuclear for the same reasons they like high speed trains and supersonic jets."

     

    Part of their popularity comes from the fact that scientists and engineers have a much higher status in France than in America. Many high ranking civil servants and government officials trained as scientists and engineers (rather than lawyers, as in the United States), and, unlike in the U.S. where federal administrators are often looked down upon, these technocrats form a special elite. Many have graduated from a few elite schools such as the Ecole Polytechnic. According to Mandil, respect and trust in technocrats is widespread. "For a long time, in families, the good thing for a child to become was an engineer or a scientist, not a lawyer. We like our engineers and our scientists and we are confident in them."

     

    Thirdly, he says, the French authorities have worked hard to get people to think of the benefits of nuclear energy as well as the risks. Glossy television advertising campaigns reinforce the link between nuclear power and the electricity that makes modern life possible. Nuclear plants solicit people to take tours--an offer that six million French people have taken up. Today, nuclear energy is an everyday thing in France.

     

    Many polls have been taken of French public opinion and most find that about two-thirds of the population are strongly in favor of nuclear power. It's not that the French don't have a gut fear of nuclear power. Psychologist Paul Slovic and his colleagues at Decision Research in Eugene, Oregon, discovered in their surveys that many French people have similar negative imagery and fears of radiation and disaster as Americans. The difference is that cultural, economic and political forces in France act to counteract these fears.

     

    For example, while French citizens cannot control nuclear technology anymore than Americans, the fact that they trust the technocrats that do control it makes them feel more secure. Then there is need. Most French people know that life would be very difficult without nuclear energy. Because they need nuclear power more than us, they fear it less.

     

    Civaux baker Jacques Rambault, admits that this technology is potentially dangerous and needs skillful management. As Chernobyl showed, the Russians, he says, were not "up to the task. But the French scientists and engineers are." For other citizens, rubbing shoulders with workers at the plant has made this once exotic technology an everyday thing. Many other risks concern them more. Madame Schoumacher, who has lived in Civaux most of her life, says "I would be much more frightened living next to a dam [France has about 12% hydroelectric power] or getting into her car in the morning." Others like bar owner Alain Cauvin cite "mad cow disease as being much scarier than nuclear power.

     

    Ironically, the French nuclear program is based on American technology. After experimenting with their own gas-cooled reactors in the 1960s, the French gave up and purchased American Pressurized Water Reactors designed by Westinghouse. Sticking to just one design meant the 56 plants were much cheaper to build than in the US. Moreover, management of safety issues was much easier: the lessons from any incident at one plant could be quickly learned by managers of the other 55 plants. The "return of experience" says Mandil is much greater in a standardized system than in a free for all, with many different designs managed by many different utilities as we have in America.

     

    Things were going very well until the late 80s when another nuclear issue surfaced that threatened to derail their very successful program: nuclear waste.

     

    French technocrats had never thought that the waste issue would be much of a problem. From the beginning the French had been recycling their nuclear waste, reclaiming the plutonium and unused uranium and fabricating new fuel elements. This not only gave energy, it reduced the volume and longevity of French radioactive waste. The volume of the ultimate high-level waste was indeed very small: the contribution of a family of four using electricity for 20 years is a glass cylinder the size of a cigarette lighter. It was assumed that this high-level waste would be buried in underground geological storage and in the 80s French engineers began digging exploratory holes in France's rural regions.

     

    To the astonishment of France's technocrats, the populations in these regions were extremely unhappy. There were riots. The same rural regions that had actively lobbied to become nuclear power plant sites were openly hostile to the idea of being selected as France's nuclear waste dump. In retrospect, Mandil says, it's not surprising. It's not the risk of a waste site, so much as the lack of any perceived benefit. "People in France can be proud of their nuclear plants, but nobody wants to be proud of having a nuclear dustbin under its feet." In 1990, all activity was stopped and the matter was turned over to the French parliament, who appointed a politician, Monsieur Bataille, to look into the matter.

     

    Christian Bataille resembles the French comedian Jacques Tati. His face breaks into a broad grin when asked why he was appointed to this task. "They were desperate," he says. "In France, executive power dominates much more than in Anglo-Saxon countries. So that if the Executive asks parliament to do something it means they are really at the end of their ideas."

     

    Bataille went and spoke to the people who were protesting and soon realized that the engineers and bureaucrats had greatly misunderstood the psychology of the French people. The technocrats had seen the problem in technical terms. To them, the cheapest and safest solution was to permanently bury the waste underground. But for the rural French says Bataille, "the idea of burying the waste awoke the most profound human myths. In France we bury the dead, we don't bury nuclear waste...there was an idea of profanation of the soil, desecration of the Earth."

     

    Bataille discovered that the rural populations had an idea of "Parisians, the consumers of electricity, coming to the countryside, going to the bottom of your garden with a spade, digging a hole and burying nuclear waste, permanently." Using the word permanently was especially clumsy says Bataille because it left the impression that the authorities were abandoning the waste forever and would never come back to take care of it.

     

    Fighting the objections of technical experts who argued it would increase costs, Bataille introduced the notions of reversibility and stocking. Waste should not be buried permanently but rather stocked in a way that made it accessible at some time in the future. People felt much happier with the idea of a "stocking center" than a "nuclear graveyard". Was this just a semantic difference? No, says Bataille. Stocking waste and watching it involves a commitment to the future. It implies that the waste will not be forgotten. It implies that the authorities will continue to be responsible. And, says Bataille, it offers some possibility of future advances. "Today we stock containers of waste because currently scientists don't know how to reduce or eliminate the toxicity, but maybe in 100 years perhaps scientists will."

     

    Bataille began working on a new law that he presented to parliament in 1991. It laid plans to build 3-4 research laboratories at various sites. These laboratories would be charged with investigating various options, including deep geological storage, above ground stocking and transmutation and detoxification of waste. The law calls for the labs to be built in the next few years and then, based on the research they yield, parliament will decide its final decision. Bataille's law specifies 2006 as the year in which parliament must decide which laboratory will become the national stocking center

     

    Bataille's plan seems to be working. Several regions have applied to host underground laboratories hoping the labs will bring in money and high prestige scientific jobs. But ultimate success is by no means certain. One of these laboratories will, in effect, become the stocking center for the nation and the local people may find that unacceptable. If protesters organize, they can block shipments on the roads and rail. The situation could quickly get out of hand.

     

    Nuclear waste is an enormously difficult political problem which to date no country has solved. It is, in a sense, the Achilles heel of the nuclear industry. Could this issue strike down France's uniquely successful nuclear program? France's politicians and technocrats are in no doubt. If France is unable to solve this issue, says Mandil, then "I do not see how we can continue our

     

  • 03-01-2009 4:43 PM In reply to

    Re: 2009 House Bill 4231 (Authorize tax break for photovoltaics )

     you forgot to mention that the original reactor plans were bought from the russians, as france took a shot at being a satellite state for a little while, and was quickly abandoned after chernobyl happened.  the french don't want nuclear waste in their back yard, neither do we. but we have things the french don't have. like salt mines that go three quarters of a mile down into the earth. we also have huge caverns that were created by nuclear bomb tests that would be a perfect site for nuclear waste disposal. it's already radioactive, and will not be able to be accessed anyway for centuries. why NOT store it there?

    it seems as if we have the solution right here for the nuclear waste problem. we could store all the world's nuclear waste there and not even experience a rise in radiation above background level at the site.

     

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