Michigan Votes Forum

 Rep. Opsommer may be sincere, but I grow weary of all the self-serving position-taking done by pols of both parties. Of course this measure has no force of law.

 This resolution must be heard. The alternative is the complete opposite of the Constitutional ideal.

How wonderful.

Now let's see a resolution to have the Michigan legislature quit laying unfunded mandates on local government units? 

If the economy continues to worsen or a large terrorist attack occurs, should we as a State and as a People, turn over absolute control to the central government of the United States of America?

As history teaches us, “Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely”.  This is an unfortunate truth, which we have seen in many countries throughout the history of the world.

We must not relinquish our rights.  We must reaffirm the rights of our sovereign state!

 This legislation must be passed to exempt us from Federal abuse of the Constitution; and either they stand with us or against us...depending on how they vote on this.

 this legislation is simply a shout into the wilderness for all the effect it has...

it will be interesting to see how many side with freedom loving citizens, and how many side with those who give up liberty for security.

Concerned legislators in several states have proposed or are proposing legislation to affirm their state's sovereignty.  In essence, they're putting the federal government on notice by affirming that our Republic will remain a nation of sovereign states, a right properly and legally protected through the 10th Amendment to the U. S. Constitution. 

Citizens are already known to be rallying in the states of Pennsylvania, Arizona, Washington, Missouri, New Hampshire and Oklahoma, as well as many others, in support of 'statement of sovereignty' legislation similar to Rep. Opsommer's HRC-4.

States have no obligation to agree or consent to any tax, rule, regulation or other agenda item coming from the bowels of DC that is not in strict compliance with the U. S. Constitution.  Education and social welfare programs are excellent examples of how the federal government has over-stepped its authority and interfered with the states' individual business.  

Michigan citizens who are concerned about the direction in which our nation is headed should rally in support of Rep. Opsommer's House Concurrent Resolution 4 to the best of their ability.  They should encourage the Michigan House Committee on Government Operations not to bury this important piece of legislation in committee, but instead pass it out of committee to the House floor where it will see the light of day and, hopefully, garner at least some media attention and a great deal of public support.

Enacting HRC-4 is a proper and necessary step to take in order to preserve and protect not only the US Constitution and our Republic, but also the rights of our sovereign states and We, the People. 

http://house.michigan.gov/committeeinfo.asp?lstcommittees=Government%20Operations 

A waste of time by a politician who has nothing to offer but ideology.

 our nation started with people who had nothing to offer but ideology. our state thrived for years with people who had nothing to offer but ideology. ideology is the prime motivator for all positive actions.

a politician with ideals is a statesman. a politician without them is just a politician.

So.... has anyone actually read the bill? If you have did you notice this: "We also urge the federal government to halt its practice of imposing mandates upon the states for purposes not enumerated by the Constitution of the United States". How far does urging the federal government go? Have we, the people not been urging for decades to stop the tyrannical tranparent oppression of mind? Our nation started with people who ACTED they did not sit around waiting for someone to scribble on a piece of paper something along the lines of "YOUR FREE!". They got off their asses, and took action to liberate themselves; we, the people should follow the example.

Our nation has refined it's ideology over 230 years. Sorry, it's just not good enough to have an ideology and leave it at that. Ideology needs to be made practical and workable. You people are looking for a simple solution to a mirade of complicated problems.To adhere to a strict ideology may be admirable in your black and white view of the world, but it's really not that simple.

If our country hadn't been able to change and adapt, we wouldn't have gotten this far. Core values are important, but unbending and unyielding ideology is destructive.

Thomas Jefferson couldn't have expanded our nation if he had not refined our ideology. Abraham Lincoln couldn't have saved the Union if he had not refined our ideology. FDR couldn't have saved us from despair and poverty if he had not refined our ideology.

The Soviet Union had an unbending and unyeilding ideology. Nazi Germany had an unbending and unyielding ideology.

Governments need to adapt.

And getting back to the subject of the thread, we don't need a nation of fifty little fiefdoms who can impose their leader's ideology on the citizens. Lincoln made that point very well. This bill is a waste of legislator's time. An ode to ideological nonsense.

 we are a nation of fifty sovereign states. not "little fiefdoms".

each state has it's own governmental experiment, which sprang from it's people.

abraham lincoln took away states rights and made them all subject to federal subjugation.

lincoln didn't 'save the union', lincoln's army won the war. the union has never been the same, and some of the scars have not yet healed.

thats why it has taken this long to elect a black president.

lincoln took away states rights as surely as he was shot in the head for it.

others have done what they must to keep us a UNITED america, but have allowed divisiveness to continue.

states rights are important, but stopping unfunded federal mandates is even more important.

History, as written by crazycajun.

All absolutely the truth..............not.

 so you support complete and total federalization?

our founding fathers didn't.

lincoln didn't.

roosevelt did.

clinton certainly does.

and our current president has gone farther along that road than any before him. except for the fact that he is using our money to BUY the country, one industry at a time.

See, there you have it. Point of view.

I see our President, rather than buying our country, as trying to save our country. And so do the majority of republican governors. That's where refining ideology comes into play.

At some point in time, things have to work to be right, no matter what your ideology. When ideology doesn't work in the real world anymore, your refine it. Sure you want to keep your values. But government has to work.

Jefferson knew that, Lincoln knew that, and Roosevelt knew that. Those are the three defining eras of our evolution as a nation.

I don't support complete and total federalization. That wouldn't work. But we need to find something that will work, will restart our economy and get us rolling again. That requires pragmitism, not ridgid ideology.

And in the spirit of staying on topic, this resolution is a waste of time, in my opinion.

 And how is this president saving the country exactly?  By shoving even more debt down our throats enslaving us more and more everyday; thats how. Good save. Look it's this simple, if a president/senator/governor/congressman or even a citizen is to save us they 1.) cannot do it without everyone because the resposibility is far too great for anyone but everyone and 2.) they are going to expose this system of government for what it is and what it has done. Barack Obama has not and will not do or admit either of those things because he seeks one thing: enslavement. It is no joking matter and a difficult reality to grasp but it is the one in which we dwell. Debt is slavery and our currency is debt, period. So we can keep playing the same game as ignorant ideological nut huggers who place their motivity in some higher power of government or we can grow up, stop playing politics and get literal about the problems facing not America but humanity because that is what this is really about; not you, not me, not Mr. Barack Obama, it is about humanity. And i agree this bill, and all bills for that matter are a waste of time and cirtificates of further degredation. Go ahead, sign petitions, rally for politicans, and embrace the constitution just remind yourself in doing so, you are selling yourself to a system of greed, corruption, and denial. I say again, the founding fathers did not wait around for someone to save them, they broke the grip of tyranny and walked the path themselves. So for them and their lost way we must do the same; even more do it for yourself, your family, your friends, and your neighbor; do it because they will not.

I will; sign petitions, rally for poilticians, and certainly embrace the constitution. I will not embrace violence, or resort to it's use.

You sir, are the best argument for gun control going, and , contrary to what some on this forum might think, I am not for gun control.

I am for citizen participation in government. We are the government. If it is corrupt, it is our corruption. If it is greedy, it is our greed. If it is in denial, it is our denial, and we must change it. Not by destroying it, but by improving it.

Am I suppossed to think you have a better idea than Washington, Jefferson, or Madison. C'mon, get serious. You're telling me, or us, that we have lost the way of the founding fathers, and you know the way. Yea, right.

 did i say i have the answers? no. i want to follow their examples, listen to their answers, and restructure society the way they dreamt it. Who said anything about violence or destruction? you did sir, not i. Destruction, however, leads to creation and if that is what we must do then by all and any means we shall do it. for as it is written: "when a long train of abuses and usurpations pursuing invariably the same object, evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty  to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security such has been the patient sufferance of these colonies; & such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former systems of government." I could not embrace peace more than anyone else but when i am getting beaten i am not going to stand there and be beat without hitting back, i dont know about you. And go ahead tell me the people have not been beaten. please, lie through your teeth.

And another thing sir, why argue with me and try and make me out to be a violent self-righteous moron if we a pursuing the same cause? I am asking for your help not your personally-directed degrading criticism. By the way, i like that if its corrupt... thing you said.

jackson:

And another thing sir, why argue with me and try and make me out to be a violent self-righteous moron if we a pursuing the same cause? I am asking for your help not your personally-directed degrading criticism. By the way, i like that if its corrupt... thing you said.

You may have common cause, but quite obviously one of you is quite hysterical and the other is more on an even keel about it.

Personally, I think hysteria hurts the "cause" of our nation and states and communities and citizens.

I also think resolutions like this one are nothing but non-specific, tub thumping rants by politicians hoping to score a few points with the home folks.  They are manipulative and worthless, and a waste of legislative time.

crazycajun:

 this legislation is simply a shout into the wilderness for all the effect it has...

it will be interesting to see how many side with freedom loving citizens, and how many side with those who give up liberty for security.

 once again, we find we agree on something. amazing how you keep coming back around to my way of thinking.

 Well gentlemen, what do we do with a system that keenly deludes us by apparently serving us?

 We know exactly what must be done! Those elected either stand with the establishment in D.C. or they stand with the people and we will find out who is who based on how they vote!

crazycajun:

crazycajun:

 this legislation is simply a shout into the wilderness for all the effect it has...

it will be interesting to see how many side with freedom loving citizens, and how many side with those who give up liberty for security.

 

 once again, we find we agree on something. amazing how you keep coming back around to my way of thinking.

Agreeing with yourself is a good step towards sanity.

 sorry j.

wasn't talking to you.

i was talking to your insane friend.

 Come on dudes leave the political bull out of here, thats what has us in the mess we are in. And don't call me insaine, you have no idea... But BACK ON TOPIC why then do we not do what we must to pull ourselves out of the self excavated depths of anti-humanity? This is a problem that leaves me dumbfounded.

jackson:

But BACK ON TOPIC why then do we not do what we must to pull ourselves out of the self excavated depths of anti-humanity? This is a problem that leaves me dumbfounded.

What have you done in this vein?  Do you actively lobby your legislators?  Have you, yourself, taken your proposals for change to the people and run for office on that platform?  Do you really have a platform -- a plan -- for change that would bring us all the America you think we should have?  Do have a clear statement of principals that you believe should guide us as a nation?  And so on?

You don't have to answer these questions here, and I don't expect you to.  The idea is not to corner and trap you with your own ruminations.  I am not the Grand Inquisitor, and leave that task to others who post here frequently. 

But I do ask you to examine your own thinking and feelings about this topic, and explore what you really mean and think needs to be done and how to go about it.  Then, perhaps you can articulate that compelling platform to carry you (or someone else who adopts it) into a position of real opportunity to translate those ideas into action.

That, I believe is truly the American Way.

I do not think 2009 HCR 4 is the vehicle  for doing this.  To me it is just tub thumping and noise without real substance.  I'd rather see the sponsors apply themselves to making things better within the purview of their own authority -- the Michigan Legislature -- rather than just yakking and complaining about the federal government.

 wow, such sage advise from someone who ALSO has no plan for digging us out of this mess, who ALSO has not run for office on that platform, who ALSO has not lobbied his legislators, etc., etc. etc... ad nauseum.

all concurrent resolutions, in fact ALL resolutions are tub-thumping, but even tub thumping has a purpose.

you do it all the time.

so do i.

mine work better.

jackson:

 Well gentlemen, what do we do with a system that keenly deludes us by apparently serving us?

 sir, you have taken the first step.

seen the problem and recognized it for what it is,.

you are well on your way to finding a solution.

part of that solution is finding a candidate that supports your idea of change and electing him.

notice i DID NOT SAY a candidate that SAYS he supports your idea of change.

Your pandering crazy. Getting desperate for support?

 nope... don't need it. i'm a free and independent citizen. my voice is my own. but i DO congratulate others on positive achievements.

that's why i've never congratulated you.

jmangan:

Your pandering crazy. Getting desperate for support?

I second the pandering charge against crazy.   Pure toadyism.

 spoken like a true toad.

more drivel from the left.

pfffft...

Go easy on him Sane, he's in a fragile state of mind.

 not even close, jman...

besides, how fragile do i have to be to be better than you? i can be all the fragile that i want. i'm STILL better than you.

to paraphrase a t-shirt...

THIS MORNING, JMAN COULDN'T SPELL MORON. NOW HE IS ONE.

you really should have answered those questions. now the world knows you don't have a clue.

crazycajun:

 not even close, jman...

besides, how fragile do i have to be to be better than you? i can be all the fragile that i want. i'm STILL better than you.

to paraphrase a t-shirt...

THIS MORNING, JMAN COULDN'T SPELL MORON. NOW HE IS ONE.

Jeez, crazy, your low level of brilliance and high state of brittleness really are coming through clearly today.  You are one dull, broken dude.

Even living in LaLa Land can be tough, eh, cajun?

 and there is moron number two.

who rattled YOUR cage this morning, insane?

oh.. i guess JMAN did.

BAD MORON!!!.

 Truth is treason in the empire of lies." --Ron Paul !!!!

 AMEN...

sic semper tyrannis...

Your becoming quite insulting crazy. That's ok though, I understand when you run out of talking points, you resort to insults.

Your latin phrase would apply appropriatly to you in this situation. "Thus always to tyrants."