Michigan Votes Forum

I don't think this bill should ever pass if people don't like smoke in their enviornment then they have the choice not to go to an establishment that allows smoking. How dare anyone take away a business owners right to decide how they should run a business. Smoking is legal there are more vital things to worry about like ADA compliance! 

 Idon't smoke, but I agree with you. This used to be a free country.

I agree.

Get the government out of micro-managing our lives and choices.  What next -- anyone who has a pet cannot enter an establishment because someone might be allergic to pet dander?  How about banning people who wear perfume or cologne -- because someone might have an allergy!  This list can go on and on.  I am sick of these "SOCIAL ENGINEERS"

This country was created on FREEDOM and that includes CHOICES.  If you do not like what an establishment allows or disallows you do not have to frequent the business.  It's your choice.  By the time these social engineers get through with turning our rights into crimes we'll all be living in communes and handing over our earnings at the entrance gate!

 What are you babbling about? The government has a hand in managing every business that serves alcohol and food, there is oversight every step of the way. They require a license and are told to what temperatures food must be stored and served, when they can serve alcohol and what they can allow to be consumed. So what is the difference if the government seeks to protect patrons and employees of these establishments from a known cancer causing agent? If it was vermiculite or radon everyone would be all for it, but because it is an addiction every cries big brother.

Nobody's babbling as someone who's worked in the business for year's and has friend's that still own and work in the business it's a choice. If you don't like it you have a choice what mif the government told you you couldn't go somewhere because you didn't smoke? The last time I checked alcohol causes many illnesses as well, so like alcohol until it is illeagal to purchase it is a personal choice. One that if you don't like it you have the choice to go somewhere else and leave people to run their businesses the way they see fit! The one calling Big Brother is people like you wanting the government to tell people how to run their lives.

 the government isn't stopping you from owning a home with radon. you are free to do that. in fact, it's YOUR responsibility to have YOUR home tested for radon, not the government's.

it's not the government's bar, nor is it the government who is smoking, nor is it the government who is being exposed to the smoke.

it's all being done by FREE people, who CHOOSE to smoke, and who CHOOSE to be around those that smoke. for better or worse, whether you agree with it or not, they have CHOSEN to do what they do.

it's the government's job to GOVERN, not NANNY. it's YOUR responsibility to look after yourself, and MY responsibility to look after myself. don't get involved with MY decisions.

don't make them FOR me. i'm perfectly capable of making them myself. cigarette smoke CANNOT HARM YOU if YOU DON'T DECIDE TO BE WHERE PEOPLE ARE SMOKING.

if you don't like the smell of smoke, leave. you can try telling the owner about your dislike, and i'm sure that if ENOUGH of you do so, he will DO SOMETHING ABOUT THE SMOKE. but not until. so, why not COMPLAIN TO THE OWNER, or OPEN A NON SMOKING BAR?

so, exercise YOUR OWN FREE WILL, but don't think that you can EXERCISE MINE.

 It's nice to see folk's that get it!

 oh yeah, marine. we get it.

semper fi...

It isn't about what it does to you, as in alcohol, the effects are solely to that person, unless the idiot decides to drink and drive. It is about the effects of what it does to the person next to you, second hand doesn't stay within the confines of your personal space. Every chemical contained within cigarette smoke is categorized as a known carcinogen by OSHA, therefore it violates law already, but it is impossible to enforce. So, to protect workers rights smoking needs to be banned in all public establishments.

No one has a right to smoke, it is written no where. We all have a right to the pursuit of happiness but that right ends when it infringes on another's rights. So, while legal, I do not have the right to go around flicking boogers on people, because that would infringe on their right to live their lives booger-free.

Ban smoking in all public places, if people want to be weak and addicted, let them do it in their own homes.

No one has a right to smoke?  What the heck is that?  You mean to tell me that if a right is not enumerated in the U.S. Constitution then you do not have a right?  Pure idiocy!!  Next you'll tell us that you do not have a right to ride a bike, wear perfume and cologne, or shave your beard or legs unless it is outlined specifically in the Bill of Rights. 

The Constitution was written to limit the powers of government over the people, not to limit the unalienable rights of the people.  Read your Federalist Papers.  In fact -- read the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights!  Then go on-line and look up "The Law" by Frederic Bastiat.  Robofsemi -- You might learn something besides a fascist/socialist ideology.

This country was founded on individual rights and choice.  It's called a Limited Republic (individual rights over mob rule)that people like you want to dismantle.

No wonder we have so many people running for office that believe their Oath of Office is just a preliminary to get through, instead of a covenant that they made to the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights as well as to the people.

If you want a despotic dictatorship run country go found another and quit trying to destroy our freedoms and liberties.

By the time people like you get through with undermining, abrogating, ignoring and destroying our freedoms it will be a criminal act to just walk out your front door.  I just know when it comes to people with your ideology that I'm pounding on a very thick, brick wall.  I can only hope that when we've lost all of our freedoms  and the anvil falls it comes thundering down first on all of those who think like you!  Pay backs are hell!  When are you going to build the first commune?

 you are wrong here, rob.

you DO have the right to flick boogers on other people. and those other people, as they are responding to your ASSAULT with what in this day and age could be DEADLY BOOGERS, they have the right to defend themselves with whatever force is necessary to get you to stop ASSAULTING THEM WITH YOUR DEADLY BOOGERS.

the right to smoke isn't GRANTED BY THE CONSTITUTION, like every other right, it is granted by God.

you have the RIGHT to be smoke free, but you also have the RESPONSIBILITY to do it ON YOUR OWN. without help from the iron fist of government. that means you have to take responsibility for YOUR CHOICE TO BE SMOKE FREE. with all that entails.

it's not the government's job to force YOUR will on OTHER people. those people have every right to decide to smoke, whether it hurts them or not. you DO NOT have the right to decide FOR THEM what is BEST FOR THEM. you DO have the right to be smoke free, but NOT everywhere on the planet. you can keep people from smoking in YOUR HOUSE, or YOUR CAR, but not MY BAR.

YOU don't have a right to be there, you are there at my invitation, and can be thrown out at MY DISCRETION.

the bar is NOT YOURS and the choice of whether or not I allow smoking is up to me.

as there is only ONE non-smoking bar in michigan, i don't think you will have much success in finding a nice smoke free place to go drinking.

now, if a majority of my customers express the desire to be smoke free, then AND ONLY THEN will i make my place smoke free.

YOU don't buy enough drinks in my bar to make your opinion matter.

My, my. What have we here? Another radical in the mold of crazy. Rather than using upper case, inform uses bold type, for the entire post. Do you shout when you talk?

You certainly have a warped idea of freedom, much like crazy. Freedom doesn't mean you can do what you want, and the hell with everyone else. Robo is right on. With freedom comes responsibility, to everyone else. We have freedom of speech, but we can't yell fire in a crowded building for the fun of seeing the people panic.

People are free to smoke, but not free to blow their smoke on someone else. That someone else has a right to be free from your smoke. People working in bars and restaurants expect a safe work place. Every workplace has safety rules, for the good of all the employees. An employer has an obligation to provide a safe workplace to the people he employs. This is an obligation of the government to "promote the general welfare". That's in the preamble to the constitution.

To use the argument that people don't have to use a bar or restaurant where smoking is allowed denies the reality of the governments obligation to protect the public's health. The food served to the public is regulated, the conditions of cleaniness are perscribed by law, and the air you breath while eating should be as clean as the food. That's only reasonable. People who want to smoke can do so where they are not infringing on the rights of others.

 george washington was a radical. thomas jefferson was a radical, as were all the founding fathers.

robo is WRONG here, as he has NO RIGHT to take away the rights and freedoms of others. THAT is the responsibility he refuses to shoulder.  not forcing others to stop being free.

you don't have a problem with removing freedoms. you advocate it constantly.

i don't hunt in your living room, yet you want me to stop hunting. i don't drink in your car, but you want me to stop drinking. i don't smoke in your face, but you want me to stop smoking.

you seem confused about that 'obligation to protect the public's health'. it's not their job to protect MY health. it's MY job. they have been doing it with MY MONEY for FAR TOO LONG.

smoking only effects the SMOKER, AND THOSE WHO CHOOSE TO BE CLOSE ENOUGH TO THE SMOKER TO BREATHE THE SMOKE.

you have a choice to either be close to the smoker, or not. exercise the responsibility that God gave you and make that choice for yourself. God didn't give you the authority, or the right to choose for ME.

it's not your job, nor is it the government's. and frankly, it's NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS.

freedom is being able to DO OR NOT DO as is our CHOICE. banning hunting, drinking, or smoking leaves NO ONE FREE.

I have to agree with inform4 about the right to smoke matter.  Just because the right is not written into the US Constitution does not preclude its existence. 

Of course, in order to recognize a “fundamental right” to smoke tobacco, one also must be equally adamant and supportive of things like the right to privacy, and to fully “own” one’s own body.  For further illumination, read Amendment IX, the 9^th article in the Bill of Rights, which says:

”The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.”

 

Amendment IX (1791) to The Constitution Of The United States

Robofsemi makes an important aboservation about individual rights:

”… We all have a right to the pursuit of happiness but that right ends when it infringes on another's rights. So, while legal, I do not have the right to go around flicking boogers on people, because that would infringe on their right to live their lives booger-free.’

 

Robosemi, 2/25/09, 9:07 am

Yes, there are limits to the ways in we which we can legitimately exercise our rights.  As an old friend notes, “My right to swing my arms and hands ends where your nose begins.”  In other words, once you enter and impinge on another’s space with your activity or behavior your “right” to engage in that behavior ends.

We also note that the right to self defense is well established in law.  That means when someone invades your space with hostile action, you do have a right to strike back and terminate the threat to your health and well-being that hostile action carries and delivers.  It might be constructive to think about that concept in respect to the proposed no smoking law.

Regulating behavior such as smoking, is well within the police powers of American government, which is committed by its Constitution to “… establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the General Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our posterity … .”

 so, how does banning smoking secure the blessings of liberty for all those forced not to smoke?

You can't take away a right you never had. You are delusional at best.

You are outnumbered in what ever argument you choose. Put this on a ballot and I guarantee it will pass. It may not be right in your mind, but it will be right in the majority of voter's minds. Every state that has passed similar laws has done so with a majority vote. This measure, while not represented here, has much more support than you may be aware.

Freedom is being able to go to the same places to drink and dine as people who choose to smoke and not having to endure second hand smoke. If the building is public, smoking should be banned until such time as the perfect the smokers plastic bubble.

God didn't give me anything as it is a fictional being. Keep your religion to yourself.

crazycajun:

 so, how does banning smoking secure the blessings of liberty for all those forced not to smoke?

Easy.  They can move their carcasses outside and away from other people to do it.

 No one is making smoking illegal, they are just making it illegal to do in public places. You can smoke until your heart solidifies in the safety and comfort of your own home where you are only harming your loved ones, and not ours.

"banning hunting, drinking, or smoking leaves NO ONE FREE."  crazy

You must have gone through an entire bale of straw with that one crazy. No one is calling for the banning of hunting, drinking, or smoking. 

Take a deep breath, smoke free I hope, and just calm down.

 Do you know what the word "choice" means? You can choose to work or dine at any establishment you wish to. That means that you can work or dine at any establishment that does not allow smoking or allows it. An establishment/ business should have the RIGHT to decide their rules without government intervention, dictates or mandates. I did not bring a child into this freedom loving country so that I can experience having an ignoramus destroy her liberties and freedoms.

I guess you think that our Founders were a bunch of ol' jerks that could not respect the dictates of old King George and should have been hung by their bootstraps for writing the Declaration of Independence.

Your rights end where mine begins and vice-versa. If you don't want to dine at a smoking establishment - go somewhere else. But, I don't want jack-booted government dictating what a business can allow and not allow. Next we will be having government come in and tell a blind person that they cannot enter an establishment with a seeing-eye dog because someone might, by chance -- be allergic to the animal.

Our representatives have passed many laws, dictates, acts etc. that run counter to our constitutional protections. That does not make them right in their unlawful superseding and ignoring our constitutional protections. Everyone on earth is born FREE. It is only due to dictators, monarchs and despots that individuals have their freedoms torn asunder. I do not want a Swastika or Hammer and Sickle becoming the symbol for this country or any other country.

You are a brick wall -- aren't you?  You do not seem to have the ability to define or interpret Amendment XIV, nor Amendment IX.

If believing in wanting my constitutional protections upheld makes me a "radical" I'll gladly wear that title with pride.  If believing in upholding, restoring and abiding by our constitutional protections defines me as "warped" in your eyes then I will proudly stand with other "warped" individuals.

 a bar is NOT A PUBLIC PLACE. it is a PRIVATE ESTABLISHMENT that allows PAYING CUSTOMERS IN. the PUBLIC is NOT INVITED.

a government owned building is NOT A PUBLIC PLACE. as the public does not have FREE AND UNLIMITED ACCESS.

in fact, there are very few public places.

my bar is a PLACE OF LIMITED ACCOMODATION. i have the right to refuse service to anyone, for any reason, or no reason at all. i have the right to close my doors when i choose, or to open them to allow customers in. and all i have to do to take away YOUR right to be in my bar is throw you out. any time, for any reason.

you HAVE NO RIGHTS in my bar other than the right to peaceably assemble, and to freely associate, subject to MY LIMITATIONS OF ACCOMODATION.

if you do not agree with my limits of accommodation, you have the right not to cross my threshold.

by crossing my threshold, you give implicit agreement to my limitations of accomodation.

if you cross my threshold WITHOUT agreeing to those limitations, you can, and will be asked to leave. forcibly if necessary.

 Your name speaks volumes about your intellect.

 no, it really doesn't. but i accept your insult.

Do you have to leave in order to have a happy hour at your bar, crazy?

 no. we don't allow people like you into my bar in the first place.

if you are happy to see me leave, you are not welcome to come back.

simple as that...

 You can not refuse service to anyone you choose, that is a misconception, there has to be a legitimate business reason behind the refusal of service. Those little signs are just show, legally they mean nothing.

 they mean EVERYTHING. the police routinely remove people from my bar simply because i say i don't want them there.

its called TRESPASSING. and as the property owner, i get to decide who is welcome and who is a trespasser.

by the way, those i send out STILL have to pay their bill. and if i wish, i don't EVER have to let them back into my place of business.

if you wish to TEST the theory...

 I assume, since the police are removing them, they are either drunk and/or disorderly. Which lends itself to a legitimate business reason, see how that works.

No need to waste your time on this bar thing Robo. I would bet my next social security check he doesn't even own a bar, unless drinking in one for years equates to some form of quasi ownership.

BTW - I don't go to bars, too smokey for me.

 crazycajun - I guess we have to allow Robofsemi to be as "thick as a post"  It might be due to fact that Robofsemi has not learned in school how to do cognitive thinking.  Meaning - mentally putting one foot in front of the other in order to determine an outcome and consequence.  Government seems to be Robofsemi's messiah, especially when it can thoroughly trounce on individual, unalienable rights and choice.

I just hope that Robofsemi is not holding any form of office in government, because then he/she is thoroughly into violating the Oath of Office. Scary!

 Oh, Robofsemi - you made a choice without government dictate, mandate or control?  What a novelty! 

 Hey, thanks, can I have a cookie?

 wrong AGAIN, jman.

holding the title and the deed to the building, and the license to do business, and the liquor license makes me the owner.

hell, i even own the mineral rights...

maybe i ought to drill for oil while i'm at it.

 Try the following on for size Robfsemi. They are from Glenn Beck's website.  If you can't uphold these ideals then I know that we are not in the same ideological league. 

1. America is good.

2. I believe in God and He is the Center of my Life.

3. I must always try to be a more honest person than I was yesterday.

4. The family is sacred. My spouse and I are the ultimate authority, not the government.

5. If you break the law you pay the penalty. Justice is blind and no one is above it.

6. I have a right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness, but there is no guarantee of equal results.

7. I work hard for what I have and I will share it with who I want to. Government cannot force me to be charitable.

8. It is not un-American for me to disagree with authority or to share my personal opinion.

9. The government works for me. I do not answer to them, they answer to me.

 Who is Glenn Beck? Sounds like a country singer, but I'll play, I am eating lunch.

I agree with all but #2, I do not believe in a "god". Actually #4, would also be my #2, my family is the Center of my Life, except for that blasted dog, she orbiting outside the center somewhere.

 how can you hold something sacred if you don't believe in God?

 sacred.