Michigan Votes Forum

jmangan:

I certainly hope you enjoyed that little diatribe uber. I get the feeling your trying hard to insult me, but just don't have the guts.

[no "j". i'm not trying to insult you. as much as you may want me to. i have the guts not to insult you and the discipline to keep my private thoughts about you to myself.]

 If you think that telling me others are reading my post will get me to change them, or my ideology, you are barking up the wrong tree. I am quite honored, if it is true of course, that others are reading them, especially high school students.

[i didn't tell you that to have you change your opinion, or your ideology, but to clean up your foul mouth and bad habits.] 

As for my "sins" you say are many; aren't you taking on quite an authoritive role to point out my sins. What about that "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" deal? Don't you buy into that?

[no, i don't. as cajun would say...." YOU GOT A PROBLEM WITH THAT?"]

As for being the "brunt of high school jokes"; great! The more audience I get, no matter the reaction, the better.

[spoken like a true CLASS(less) CLOWN.] 

There's one little matter I would like you to clear up though. You said xenophobia appears to be a common trait of Michiganders. That implies you may be from somewhere other than Michigan, like crazy is.

[no, i said that i noticed that xenophobia appears to be a common trait among michiganders relating to the treatment OF cajun. it implies nothing else. i notice that you try to imply that i'm not from here, an obvious sign of xenophobia, as an insult to me. obviously you cannot communicate without an insult of some sort or other. ]

 And you never capitolize letters at the beginning of a sentence, the way crazy does,

[so?]

 and you capitolize letters for emphasis, like crazy does.

[again, so?]

 Mmmmm.

 

 

your theory that crazy and i are one in the same is again, an attempt to insult, and to drive the conversation away from the subject at hand. we have a theory here that you and sanemichigander are one in the same, but we are not as paranoid about it.  

as you obviously wish to waste time and effort insulting people you choose not to have discussions with, we will watch what you post very carefully. your wish for an audience has been granted, but not in the way you wish. your outright refusal to answer questions has also earned you the title of 'strawman' as opposed to 'jman'. strawmen don't answer questions, they just stay quiet, being propped up by others.

your diatribes are the source of much learning, but not about anything we are discussing here. we learn about you instead.

How very sensitive you are. Could this sensitivity have it's source in doubt?

Your telling me to clean up my foul mouth?  Since when did anarchist and right wing nut job become dirty language. I think it's a fairly accurate description of yours and crazy's ideology. Besides, who are you to tell anyone how they should speak, or write. 

The rest of your post is pure high school babble. Grow up and learn to communicate with dignity instead of pretending to be something your not.

Nice job, by the way, of keeping your private thoughts to yourself.

Just out of curiosity, why do you think citizens should allow our elected officials to play the politrix game? That is the question of the thread.

 the question of the thread was answered a long time ago. it shouldn't be allowed. but the left keeps on electing those that play the politrix game. our governor is a prime example. i'm yet to read YOUR opinion on the subject by the way. as for me, i'd rather have people with the discipline NOT to write bad laws in the legislature than those who think that doing something bad is better than doing nothing.

The question of the thread has an obvious answer. If citizens feel, after electing a representative, they are or were being played tricks on, they vote them out of office. An important part of the great system of government we have in our nation.

 there is one small snag to that theory. the politicians today are not elected on simply merit, but on promises to give away to the voters what is not theirs to give; a share in the state treasury.

Then there is a simple solutuion for you, and all of your friends. Either support those you trust to advance your ideology, or run for office yourself. Great country, isn't it?

 my great country is a constitutional republic, your great country is a democracy. if the democrats would read and heed the constitution, instead of re-interpreting it as a 'living document' every time it was convenient, we would still be a constitutional republic.

as i remember, you weren't so happy about democracy when it resulted in the election of "W", were you? no, of course you weren't. you weren't happy about it, and you worked hard to change the electoral college, just as republicans have done this election. it IS truly amazing how inconvenient democracy can become when democrats don't get their way.

if we are to be truly democratic, we should take a vote on everything, and no representatives would be needed. THE PEOPLE would write all laws, and vote on them. THE PEOPLE would vote up or down on taxes, fees, and regulations. and soon, chaos would rule. 

sound familiar?

Your right, I was very unhappy with "W". But not so unhappy that I wanted to change our form of government. I just worked hard, participated, and finally was able to get people I thought would better serve the country elected.

We are not pure democratic in our government form. We are a representative democracy, or a democratic republic, or a constituional democratic republic, however you want to say it. I am happy with that, and will work within that structure towards the ends that I feel work best for us all. You are free do to the same. That's why it is a great country.

 we are a constitutional republic that has been under the control of democrats for far too long. rome was a representative democracy, look what happened there. feel good legislation usurped the roman citizen. citizenship started to mean less and less, and all the government was looked to for was sustenence for the poor who would not work.

i do not feel that it is the job of the government, nor any of it's representatives, to provide bread or circuses.

 “You cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the wealthy out of freedom. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that my dear friend, is about the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it.”

uber-liberal:

 we are a constitutional republic that has been under the control of democrats for far too long. rome was a representative democracy, look what happened there. feel good legislation usurped the roman citizen. citizenship started to mean less and less, and all the government was looked to for was sustenence for the poor who would not work.

i do not feel that it is the job of the government, nor any of it's representatives, to provide bread or circuses.

Technically we are a "constitution-based federal republic, with strong democratic traditions." That is the definition we use to the rest of the world. You can't just ignore the last part of that definition.

Now you need to deconstruct that description further to understand it.

Constitutional - a government by or operating under an authoritative document (constitution) that sets forth the system of fundamental laws and principles that determines the nature, functions, and limits of that government.

Federal Republic - a state in which the powers of the central government are restricted and in which the component parts (states, colonies, or provinces) retain a degree of self-government; ultimate sovereign power rests with the voters who chose their governmental representatives.

Democracy - a form of government in which the supreme power is retained by the people, but which is usually exercised indirectly through a system of representation and delegated authority periodically renewed.

Rome survived as a government, and for most of that time ruled the known world, for 500 years. Not bad.

 it only took thirty years, and five caesars to bring it down. not good. rome had many policies and laws that some migh say might find a place in our government today. for example, you could make a slave into a citizen, but you could not make a citizen into a slave. you could arrest a citizen, but you could not shackle him. citizens, and citizenship were held in much higher regard. citizens could, and often did, impeach their representatives by knife point. it kept the politicians honest. rome, and the caesars, made the terrible mistake of giving the people something they didn't work for. this introduced the mob mentality, and brought the element of chaos into your definition of anarchy.

the rome of the centuries was a representative republic. it had a standing citizen army (some would call it a militia) and a working professional navy. every citizen had a right and a duty to be armed. every citizen had a right and a duty to participate in government. every citizen had a right and a duty to participate in, and contribute to the upkeep of the republic.

women were treated much better then than they are now. even slaves were better respected then than now. by the way, slavery in rome was a temporary condition. not permanent. killing a slave was a hanging offense. slaves could earn, or later, win their freedom. and even slaves were expected to be armed.

the rome of the caesars was a very different place, very reminiscent of our society today.

Ancient history as written by uber-liberal. Not completely accurate, but it suits your ideology. Pick out the parts you like, discard those you don't. Kind of fun, and phony. But hey, that was Rome, this is today.

Deal with it.

 he who refuses to learn from history...... you should know the rest. no, it's not 'revisionist' history, but the facts as they are presented by contemporary writers and from official papers from the roman government. it wasn't until the caesars quit trusting the citizens of rome that the problems started. rome, like michigan was doing well for a very long time until totalitarian government entered the scene. the emperors of rome, in order to maintain power to themselves, gave the people what they wanted, not what they needed.

they needed frugality in spending. they needed strong defense of rome, they needed lower taxes. what they got was bread and circuses. welfare and distractions.

It really is amazing how you even bend and twist history itself to fit your view of how we should cast off the shackles of government and revert to our more animal instincts.

Why Rome fell, when Rome fell, and even if Rome fell, is wildly debated amongst scholars. Many reasons are given. Being split in two, east and west, christianity, islam, inflation, decline of their military, being absorbed by their conquered peoples, and even lead in their water. Was government policies a contributing factor? I'm sure it was. As I said earlier, governments are finite, they fall or transition.

But they are needed to allow people to live together. They are the binding of our social book. They keep order in our society. Without order there is chaos.

We must respect individual freedom, and I do, probably alot more than you would think. But with freedom comes responsibility to society. That is what I believe the role of our government is, to find that balance, and make it work. And it is our job as citizens of that government, just as it was the ancient Romans, to make our government work for the good of us all.

 what law gives you the authority to choose options concerning my health for me?

we must all respect individual freedom, and you find those freedoms inconvenient at times when it stands in the way of you and your fellow travellers exerting more control over more free citizens.

it seems that you and your fellow travellers don't trust the citizen to make 'proper' decisions for themselves. thus your repeated attempts to take the ability to choose away from the free citizens. i owe no responsibility to society to be healthy, and society owes me no responsibility, nor does it have the right or the duty to make health and life decisions for me. you haven't shown where in our two constitutions that it does, and i have shown you where in our state constitution where it doesn't.

if you cannot make 'proper' health and life decisions for yourself, then possibly you need the nanny which you are attempting to thrust upon the rest of us, but we definately do not. make your decisions for yourself, and treat yourself as you will, but do not make any decisions for me.

Again, I agree, I don't want to choose options for your health. That's your decision, not mine. I don't care. Drive without seatbelts. Ride a motorcycle without a helmet. Smoke, anything that burns. Drink, all you want. Eat, fried or baked, anything you want. I'll vote to repeal all laws that infringe on your rights to do any of the above.

But don't blow your smoke in my face. I have a right to sample the wares of any restaurant , or bar, open to the public, or work wherever I can get hired, without being included in your attempt to destroy your health.

jmangan:

Again, I agree, I don't want to choose options for your health. That's your decision, not mine. I don't care. Drive without seatbelts. Ride a motorcycle without a helmet. Smoke, anything that burns. Drink, all you want. Eat, fried or baked, anything you want. I'll vote to repeal all laws that infringe on your rights to do any of the above.

[i'm waiting to see this... ]

But don't blow your smoke in my face. I have a right to sample the wares of any restaurant , or bar, open to the public, or work wherever I can get hired, without being included in your attempt to destroy your health.

[wasn't it you, jman, that said "with rights come responsibilities"? you completely forgot about your personal responsibility to yourself. you have the responsibility to avoid the hazards that come with being around where i'm exercising my rights, just as i have a responsibility to avoid the hazards that come with being around where you are exercising yours. you certainly may sample the wares of any restaurant or bar, or get hired wherever will have you, but it's up to you to avoid the hazards therein. tell me, are you so irresponsible that you will force yourself upon a situation where you know harmful things are going on simply to deny other's their rights?]

uber-liberal:

. tell me, are you so irresponsible that you will force yourself upon a situation where you know harmful things are going on simply to deny other's their rights?]

i believe that jman would 'take one for the team' if it meant that the 'liberal agenda' would be moved forward, if even by an inch. he cares not for personal responsibility if he has to work to exercise it. he cares not for other's rights and liberties if he is in the least inconvenienced by them.

this he has shown clearly. his constant insistence that it is HIS right to clean air in another man's smoking bar is proof positive of his leftist intentions, and the lengths he will sacrifice to achieve those leftist goals.

 I cannot understand why we can't focus on these Damn Politicians who are crooks instead of focusing on each other. We are not the ones who are pimping the Citizens. So I suggest that we save our own asses instead of worrying about history. To me these online arguments is a waste of energy, due to the fact that we have more serious issues to discuss, and some of these issues are destorying our Families, making us lose our Homes, our Jobs, etc,etc,etc. Stop voting for these crooks who do not carry about yours & mine well-being.

 i agree with you, mr. rights. but unfortunately, the left doesn't. they keep on electing those who will harm us.

uber-liberal:

 i agree with you, mr. rights. but unfortunately, the left right doesn't. they keep on electing those who will harm us.

 Well, Uber, What about those who are in the middle? I am a Grassroot/Independent member, but my politicial background is fighting to better any giving situation, and to override the BS that ALL parties seem to create. I got involved with the Revolution Movement by in the late 1960s (Old School). Back then Politicians was snakes in the politicial game, but the game was played in a different form, and now its all about getting over on the people. Do you all really understand exactly what the New World Order is about? Do you all understand that the NWO wants one Government rules?  Well to me its NOT unforturnate that politics is in a Ball of Confusion, due to the fact that everyone wants to be right, and NOBODY wants to be wrong. Can't you all see how the game of Politrixs is closing our Schools? Take a look at the BIG3 & Wall Street how the American tax payers are paying a wrongful debt, and we are knee deep into a War that do not concern us.  Yet we continue to fall for the dumbshit that our Government Representatives are smearing in our faces. We all can see how we are being harmed by our own people, and looking at the few who is on this forum that cares what about the other 4.2 billion citizens? The greatest communications that we have is the word of mouth. With the word of mouth whatever we talk about concerning our own well being, and how our own Government is mistreating us can be talked to others as we go about our daily movement.

MrRights2BHeard:

 Well, Uber, What about those who are in the middle?

[what about you? you need to determine what you believe in, liberty v. government, rights v. tyranny, and base your decisions on those beliefs.]

 I am a Grassroot/Independent member, but my politicial background is fighting to better any giving situation, and to override the BS that ALL parties seem to create.

[it depends on what you call 'better'. to some, it is better to be a servant of a big government, to others, it is better to be a totally free man. i'd be interested to hear your definition of better.]

 I got involved with the Revolution Movement by in the late 1960s (Old School). Back then Politicians was snakes in the politicial game, but the game was played in a different form, and now its all about getting over on the people.

[to some, it's always been about getting over the people. revolution comes in many forms, but again, your point of view depends on what you are revolting against.]

 Do you all really understand exactly what the New World Order is about? Do you all understand that the NWO wants one Government rules?

[yes, i do understand about it, but i haven't found any 'purists in the movement', just 'fellow travellers, like communists and socialists. those who look to one big government to cure all their ills. it's hard to really see who is who sometimes, with all the 'conspiracy theorists' floating around, but i keep looking.]

  Well to me its NOT unforturnate that politics is in a Ball of Confusion, due to the fact that everyone wants to be right, and NOBODY wants to be wrong.

[right gets elected, wrong doesn't. it's amazing how wrong the left has been proven, but it still get's enough votes from the 'gimmee' group to get elected.]

 Can't you all see how the game of Politrixs is closing our Schools?

[yes, i can, but the 'fellow travellers' who elect those with the purse strings in government cannnot. and will not.] 

 Take a look at the BIG3 & Wall Street how the American tax payers are paying a wrongful debt, and we are knee deep into a War that do not concern us.

[we've been knee deep in debt since wall street was just a wall, and we seem to develop a habit of getting into wars that 'do not concern us' because people attack us. only this time the 'enemy' isn't as simple as the nation of japan, it's the concept of terrorism.]

  Yet we continue to fall for the dumbshit that our Government Representatives are smearing in our faces.

[some of us, not all of us. some of us keep looking at the subject after the politician stops talking, delving deeper, wanting to know the truth. if you trust your politician exclusively, and believe that he or she is working strictly for your own good, then you relax. now is not the time to relax.]

 We all can see how we are being harmed by our own people, and looking at the few who is on this forum that cares what about the other 4.2 billion citizens?

[the amazing thing about a free society is that everyone is free to take care of themselves. we don't have to always play neighborhood cop everywhere around the world, but if we want to have a finger on the pulse, boots on the ground, and an idea about what is happening, we need to be where trouble is.]

 The greatest communications that we have is the word of mouth. With the word of mouth whatever we talk about concerning our own well being, and how our own Government is mistreating us can be talked to others as we go about our daily movement.

[yes, but simple complaining won't do it. we need to know what will make us better and what won't. the left has some wonderful sounding ideas that simply don't work unless everyone gives everything they make to 'mother government' to nanny the world. but most people don't want or need to be nannied, at least not for long.]

uber-liberal:

[yes, but simple complaining won't do it. we need to know what will make us better and what won't. the left has some wonderful sounding ideas that simply don't work unless everyone gives everything they make to 'mother government' to nanny the world. but most people don't want or need to be nannied, at least not for long.]

A grain of truth in a desert of deceipt. The left does have some wonderful ideas, and it would behove us to try some of them, after a decade of trying the right's ideas, and seeing the calamity they have wrought.

The idea of "mother government" is ludicrous. We are the government, it is what we make it. To view it as an entity that stands apart from the people who created it is to deny our responsibility to make it work. Uber is right by saying we need to know what will make us better and what won't. We need to quit doing the same dumb things over again and again and getting the same results.

Laiize faire capitolism was tried in the 1890's, it failed. It was tried in the 1920's, it failed. It was tried in the new century, it has already failed, and again brought us to the precipise. Each failure was remedied by the so-called left using the government to put us back on track with innovative measures. We are there again. The pendulum has swung to the left.

jmangan:

uber-liberal:

[yes, but simple complaining won't do it. we need to know what will make us better and what won't. the left has some wonderful sounding ideas that simply don't work unless everyone gives everything they make to 'mother government' to nanny the world. but most people don't want or need to be nannied, at least not for long.]

A grain of truth in a desert of deceipt. The left does have some wonderful ideas,

[what i said was that the left has some wonderful SOUNDING ideas that simply don't work unless everyone gives everything they make to 'mother government'.]

and it would behove us to try some of them, after a decade of trying the right's ideas, and seeing the calamity they have wrought.

[no, it wouldn't. we've had half a century of trying the left's ideas, their control or lack of control hasn't stopped them from trying to implement their agenda. their ideas simply don't work without massive taxation to pay for the social programs. some of us already pay half of what we earn to 'mother government'. how much more do you want? some of your vaunted european countries pay over 72% of everything they make, and it's still not enough.] 

The idea of "mother government" is ludicrous.

[sorry, it's quite descriptive of how the left is trying to make it our protector, our nanny, our ruler. always under the pretext of doing what is right for us, but never really succeeding. the difference here is, mothers in the real world eventually let go.]

 We are the government, it is what we make it.

[and the left has made it into the biggest boondoggle on the planet. always pushing it's agenda, always demanding more money. spending not like sailors, but like teenage girls at a mall with their father's credit cards, spending as much as possible as irresponsibly as possible as often as possible.] 

 To view it as an entity that stands apart from the people who created it is to deny our responsibility to make it work.

[we are trying to make it work. you are trying to make it support those the government has no business supporting using other people's money. let's try making government do the work of government, not the work of the social worker.]

 Uber is right by saying we need to know what will make us better and what won't.

[some of us do, the left doesn't.]

 We need to quit doing the same dumb things over again and again and getting the same results.

[like raising taxes, paying for unnecessary programs, electing inept politicians who bring us big government. stuff like that.] 

Laiize faire capitolism was tried in the 1890's, it failed. It was tried in the 1920's, it failed. It was tried in the new century, it has already failed, and again brought us to the precipise. Each failure was remedied by the so-called left using the government to put us back on track with innovative measures. We are there again. The pendulum has swung to the left.

[in the 1890's, we had the gold standard, the government attempted to 'hoard' the gold for the first time. that caused a panic and destroyed the economy as it was then. in the 1920's we had our war debt pile up on us in our effort to control germany and rebuild france while we paid our soldiers for their service. we had another stock market crash, which was 'cured' by world war two. then we had the 'big problem' with the carter years, the dot com boom and bust, and this recent problem. i'd say that W had more high stock market time in his presidency than any other, clinton included. so tell me how trillions of dollars of debt is going to solve the problem we are in now? that's going to be obama's legacy. let's see him balance the budget and pay all those incentives he is dealing out.]

 as your government is about to find out on april 15th, it has a lot less tax money to deal with now than it thought it had. all because of leftist control over business causing business to go out of business.  nothing can guarantee a business will be successful, but nothing guarantees that a business will be unsuccessful like government intervention and high taxes.

uber-liberal:

[in the 1890's, we had the gold standard, the government attempted to 'hoard' the gold for the first time. that caused a panic and destroyed the economy as it was then. in the 1920's we had our war debt pile up on us in our effort to control germany and rebuild france while we paid our soldiers for their service. we had another stock market crash, which was 'cured' by world war two. then we had the 'big problem' with the carter years, the dot com boom and bust, and this recent problem. i'd say that W had more high stock market time in his presidency than any other, clinton included. so tell me how trillions of dollars of debt is going to solve the problem we are in now? that's going to be obama's legacy. let's see him balance the budget and pay all those incentives he is dealing out.]

Rewriting history again.

Like most major financial downturns, the depression of the 1890s was preceded by a series of shocks that undermined public confidence and weakened the economy.

In the last days of the Harrison administration, the Reading Railroad, a major eastern line, went into receivership. That collapse was soon magnified by the failures of hundreds of banks and businesses dependent upon the Reading and other railroads. The stock market reacted with a dramatic plunge. Fearing further collapse, European investors pulled their funds from the United States, but depression soon gripped the other side of the Atlantic as well. An ongoing agricultural depression in the West and South deepened, spreading the misery to those regions.

Although thousands of businesses were ruined and more than four million were left unemployed, Cleveland did little. He believed, like most people of both major parties, that the business cycle was a natural occurrence and should not be tampered with by politicians.

That was Hoover's answer also to the economic devastation of the 30's, do nothing, this is all the normal business cycle. No matter people were starving and being made homeless, business must be left alone to recover. Roosevelt's policies didn't bring us out of the depression, that is true. But it saved millions from hunger and starving until the war finally provided the stimulus needed to jolt our economy.

Your right about W having a high stock market time. It's called a bubble, namely the housing bubble. As you may have noticed, it popped, and along with huge deficits from a war of choice, and tax cuts to his wealthy supporters, plunged us into our present near depression.

Only time will tell if our present leaders can pull us out of this depression. But the voters have once again gone to the bull pen with the score tied, bases loaded, two outs, in the top of the ninth, and chosen progressive government to pitch.

[qoute=uber-liberal] as your government is about to find out on april 15th, it has a lot less tax money to deal with now than it thought it had. all because of leftist control over business causing business to go out of business.  nothing can guarantee a business will be successful, but nothing guarantees that a business will be unsuccessful like government intervention and high taxes[/qoute]

All Due Respect Uber.  I hope that you are the kind that can take suggestions?   Whenever replying to a comment you do not have to cut & paste line after line from other peoples post, due to the fact that's why you have a reply button to reply to a post, and then under the quote you can type your reply. Quoting someone word is a waste of time, and then you (Yourself) will miss your own point.

There will never be a problem with people receiving income tax refunds, due to the fact that people will be receiving their own hard earn money that was taking out for taxes, and its a federal law that stated the rights to receive money back that was taken out of someones weekly paycheck.

Anyone who is business will operate their establishment from money that the Consumers will spend buying the items that the business have to offer, and bussiness taxes must be paid to operate that business.

Sure its true that nothing is a guarantee in the business world, but again businesses do survive from the consumers, and the Government isn't the one who decide who will be a success or unsuccessful. However, Your Government are the one who can say WE will raise more taxes to fight the war in the Middle East (not the Business profession). 

 so, jman, you feel that dumping trillions of dollars of debt on the people to be progressive? you seem to forget that during the dustbowl days, over eighty percent of the people of some states and large cities were unemployed. if you didn't own a successful farm, you almost literally didn't have a job. we can thank the empire of japan for getting us out of that depression, from which, if they had not intervened by attacking us, we would very probably still be trying to divest ourselves of it.

bill clinton had the 'dot com' bubble, but he burst it prematurely by attempting to control and tax it. he also tried to put socialist controls and programs on the people in general, and they quit spending. this recession is more due to financial shenanigans in inflating housing costs than it is about government intervention. when a fifty thousand dollar house is selling for one hundred twenty five thousand, prices are artificially inflated. only the fact that prosperity allowed us to pay those prices for so long kept us from having this recession earlier.

let's get our government out of the economy and allow businesses and individuals make economic decisions for themselves. if our government believes in freedom as much as you believe in government, it should be easy to accomplish.

 there is no guarantee that a business will be successful, but high taxes and governmental interference will guarantee that it will not be successful.

i don't cut and paste line by line, i simply hit the quote button and insert my comments in between the lines. having the other guy's words right there sometimes keeps one on track, but sometimes not.

i wonder why you think that business taxes must be paid to operate that business? aren't property taxes enough? aren't sales taxes enough? they will never be enough if our government spends frivolously. there are only a few things that government needs to do. the rest of the social engineering is not what the government needs to do. imagine the savings if government would stick to it's job and leave the rest of the programs alone.

 Uber, understand me clearly. Anyone who is in business MUST charge sales tax, and then that sales tax goes to the Government for business taxes. Businesses are paid by each consumer that buys they product, and unless they own the property that their business is on they MUST pay property taxes (here in Michigan its also known as land taxes). The Government can close a business down for not paying taxes, or tax invasion, and we must abide by the tax laws. I think that you are a bit confused by worrying about the Federal Gov, and our Local & State  Government.  I have 15 individuals on my Business payroll (employees). Its my responsiblity to do the payroll dedictions just before payday, but my accountist, office Secretary, and my payroll Director must make sure that everything is correct.

THEN, When its income tax time return each employee can receive so much of their earning back, and my business isn't like the BIG3 or Wall Street begging the Government for financial help. Now whatever I want my Local, County, State, or Federal Government to do I contact my Local, County, State, and Federal Representative with my concerns. Otherwise the Government has no need to dip off into my business.  There is days that I do not come into the office to do anything, due to the fact that I am a Rights Activist against public officials who wants to play the game of Politrixs, and believe me I am one of THE best here in Michigan.

 i don't think you understand me clearly. how much money does the government really need to operate, state, local, or federal? how much unnecessary nonsense are we paying for? i'm not against paying taxes, but i am against paying taxes for non-essential services.

i too own businesses, and i know how taxes work. i am just not happy with the frivolous spending i am seeing at the local, state, and federal level.

it seems we need more like you. as soon, and very soon, our rights will mean nothing to those you are opposing.

 Uber. I have a friend who just created a message board forum that features a wide choice of topics, and on that forum he welcome ideas for new thread topics. The site is Called News4Real Forum. Personally, I think that once the forum get to rolling it will be very interesting, due to the fact that one is a former Muslim, and William PaulX is still a member of the Muslim belief. Here is the url to the forum, and the forum welcome everyone who have an opinion, and other points of interest. http://news4realforumsite.smfforfree.com

Uber, I have been fighting againsted Corrupted Politicians since the mid 1970s, and yes corruption is at all Government levels. I am one of the News4Real Forum moderators (I was just appointed to be two days ago). So everyone please visit the Forum, and we talk about almostly all the issues that effects us in today's society. Again, membership is open to everyone.

Any problems reaching or registering let me know on here. Also, the Forum is making mentioned of this site MichiganVoting as a politically informed site here in Michigan.

 i'll look into it.