Michigan Votes Forum

 sorry. these are programs passed by one political ideology over the objections of the other.

That's called democracy.

 when  one group suffers at the benefit of others, and the government decides who will benefit, it's called tyranny.

What suffering are you referring to?

 i'd say 90% taxation is suffering.

 would'nt you?

That depends on what the remaining 10% is.

 so totalitarian government gets a pass too. tell you what. send 90% of your current income to the government if you wish, and try to live off what is left.

as an aside, if the government didn't want those execs to have the money, they should have thought about it before they handed it over to them.

 i see that no one on the left is lining up to answer the question posed by this thread. we should not believe them.

On to the next provocative question.

 or you could list some reasons why the left should be believed. but you didn't. the left has posted many provocative questions here. all were answered. why won't you answer questions?

I answer many questions. I can't answer this one because I don't know what the "left" is saying about everything. Name a particular thing the "left" has said, who said it, and I will tell you if I believe it or not, and on what basis.

 the left has said that gun control works to control gun crime. everyone who has ever written a gun control measure has promised that to his/her constituents.

Name someone who said that.

 sarah brady. our current governor. the author of several gun control bills. the author of the laws that mandate not only registration, but the lie of a 'safety inspection'. they all said it. they all lied.

Do you have an argument to refute them?

 detroit. flint. washington dc. new orleans, new jersey. all places with 'tough' gun control and the highest gun crime rates in the country. i'll make this 'fair'. please show one major city where gun control has actually eliminated gun crime. even better, show one major city where the gun crime rate is lower than kennesaw ga.

I'll raise your "fair". Give me the statistics on these cities you quote.

 right after you name the city that has gun control that works.

 D.C.'s murder rate of 69 people per 100,000 is due to strict gun control, while Indianapolis's  murder rate of 9 people per 100,000 is due to a distinct lack of gun control.

New York has a murder rate of 6.6 per 100,000, and much more people and stricter gun controls than Indy.

BTW, my research shows Indy having a murder rate of 13.9/100,000, and DC having 35.4/100,000.

 why doesn't dc, with the strictest gun control in the nation, have less crime? doesn't gun control reduce crime? the left has told us that it does.

new york doesn't count all homicides in it's murder rate. any case 'plead down' to manslaughter isn't counted. hasn't been since 1995.

which city did you say gun control works in?

 the truth is, you do not say where gun control works because it doesn't. michigan has strict gun control, yet detroit has, according to some, a murder rate of 41 per 100,000. gun registration has not stopped or solved a single crime. 'safety inspections' have not stopped or solved one single crime. flint has also climbed considerably in murder rate since our strict gun laws have been in effect.

this 'pattern of failure' has not deterred the left from disarming, or attempting to disarm, the citizenry. to continue failed programs despite the fact that they deprive citizens of rights is tyranny followed on by stupidity.

The truth is, I didn't ever claim gun control solved crime. You said I said that. Look back through these post. You are looking for a fight where there isn't one. I search for truth. Just because you say something doesn't make it true. You need to verify, prove. You attack me because I don't take everything you say as truth.

Your entitled to your own opinion, not your own facts.

I haven't called you stupid for your opinions, don't call me stupid for mine. If you can't debate in a civil manner, don't debate.

 i said that the left has told us that gun control prevents crime. i asked you why, in the face of much evidence to the contrary, we should believe what they say.

you still have not come up with a single reason why we should. so why do you believe what they say? this is a debate. you have an opposing opinion to mine. a question has been posed civilly yet not answered.  i attack only tyranny and bad law. if tyranny and bad law is the only way for a group to get to their goals, then perhaps their goals are not worth achieving.

I asked you to define the left. You can't. You provide no evidence to support your claim that guns reduce crime, or evidence that restricting guns causes crime.

I have never said I believe what "they" say, whoever "they" are. You don't even know if I have an opposing opinion to yours, because you can't define yours, beyond "the left wants to take my guns away". Your enemy is tyranny. Mine too. Tyranny of the mind, caused by blind devotion to an ideology, resulting in total disregard for the truth.

 i asked you if you knew. you never said you didn't. i gave you examples of who said what. you don't take well to those examples.

there is no such thing as tyranny of the mind. only disregard for the rights of others.

are you against all those who take rights away from citizens?

"for I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

Thomas Jefferson

 notice he said tyranny OVER the mind of man, not tyranny OF the mind of man.

OK?

 do you understand the difference?

I understand it is a difference only in your mind.

 in other words, no, you don't understand the difference.

I use my own words, you can use other words. In my words, the difference is in your mind.

 in my mind, words have meaning. say what you mean, mean what you say.

do you only believe what you can verify? no. why say it if you don't act on it? to gain 'credibility'? the question was why should we believe what the left says. you have not given any reason to believe what they say. the left has a tendency to say one thing and do another.

if you refuse to educate yourself, then how do you know what the truth is? how do you know who to trust? how do you know who not to trust?  

gypsy:

"for I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

Thomas Jefferson

 i ask you again, where is your outrage for the tyranny being forced upon the citizens of this state?

 In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

May I butt in on this conversation with yourself?

There is not tyranny in this state, nor in this country, in my opinion. There is injustice, there is greed, there is corruption. There is also alot of really hard working and devoted citizens, both in and out of government, who want to make our system work. Put me in that category. I'm not ready to give up on this government yet.

 where is your outrage over the injustice, greed, and corruption? all are forms of tyranny. injustice takes away rights and freedom. greed takes away the people's treasure. and corruption is evil in the face of the public trust. may i trouble you not to give those who are unjust, greedy, and corrupt a pass?

My outrage is focused on reform, not revolution.