Michigan Votes Forum

 One of the first things Obama did was lift the ban on American Money supporting overseas abortions...Why arent Americans infuriated over this-so many in this country can't make their housepayments or bills-yet part of our tax money is going overseas to kill innocent babies!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You don't approve of abortion?  Don't have one.

Abortion should be legal, as a matter to be decided by the woman who is affected, safe and rare.  

Largely, we have accomplished the first two objectives, despite ongoing efforts to reverse that progress.  History tells us that making abortion illegal will not put an end to it, but only will force it underground, making it less safe.

Far more effort -- effective effort -- needs to be expended on making abortion rare.  An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, according to the old wisdom.  Preventing unwanted, ill-advised and unplanned pregnancy would greatly reduce the demand for and occurrence of abortion.

Unfortunately, there often is more political profit to be mined from complaining about a problem than actually doing something to correct it.  That is especially true where emotion rules reason, as in the case of this topic.

Are you talking about the money used to bomb Iraq, killing and maiming thousands of innocent children, or the aid given to Israel to bomb and kill hundreds of innocent children in Gaza? I'm sure you want this to stop as well as money given to poor countries to allow women to choose whether to continue a pregnancy.

 you mean the INNOCENT CHILDREN the terrorists are hiding behind? no, i don't want to stop the money for that. those bombs are getting POSITIVE RESULTS despite the negative consequences.

our president went a long time without another attack on american soil. let's see if YOUR president can do the same.

 so, sane.

you are saying that the money WOULDN'T have been better spent on solving OUR problems????

of course you are.

you just don't have the guts to type it out.

why can't THOSE countries do it for themselves? they ARE better than WE are, aren't they????

Your president, Bush, was on watch, and had been in office for eight months, when the worst terroist attack in our nations history took place. He ignored the presidential briefing paper entitled "Bin Laden Determined to Attack in US". Because another one hasn't happened does not erase that fact.

If one was to happen now, I'm sure you would blame Obama.

And if you think the deaths of innocent children is positive results, your user name is very applicable, although too mild in my mind.

 your president, clinton, was on watch when the PREVIOUS WORST TERRORIST ATTACKS IN OUR NATIONS HISTORY TOOK PLACE. he ignored the DAILY briefings given to him by every branch of his cabinet. they kept on happening until SOMEBODY (BUSH) DID SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

if it were to happen now, i certainly would blame obama. you blamed bush for clinton's problem, turnabout is fair play.

no, i think the deaths of the TERRORISTS is the positive result, the death of the 'innocent children' is a negative consequence.

thousands died in the towers. hundreds died on the cole. thousands died in the other attacks. thousands more COULD have died in the FIRST attacks on the towers. clinton had MANY OPPORTUNITIES TO STOP THIS. bush did it. can obama? let's see. 

 by the way, how many INNOCENT CHILDREN died in clinton's un-aimed rocket attack on an aspirin factory?

al-jazzeera says THOUSANDS.. why were thousands of innocent children in an aspirin factory? we'll never know.

 and what do you care about INNOCENT CHILDREN ANYWAY????

you want them to be able to be aborted. what does it matter if their mother does it, or collateral damage?

they end up dead anyway. it's what your president is sending OUR money over there to accomplish.

clinton had GAYS IN THE MILITARY, obama is going to have dead babies on the other side of the planet.

crazycajun:

clinton had GAYS IN THE MILITARY

LOL!

I didn't have a choice as to where my taxes were going, and surprise, you don't either.

Clinton had gays in the military, and left Bush a surplus in the budget. Makes you mad, doesn't it?

 no, but it sure seems to have your knickers in a twist.

clinton had more scandals in his four years in office than ANY OTHER PRESIDENT. he had MORE GAFFES, more BOO-BOO'S, more near misses, and more downright disgrace than anyone else who sat in the big desk.

(i still wonder how vince foster got into that park AFTER he shot himself? did he walk, or was he carried? also, why would a SOUTHPAW shoot himself with the gun in his RIGHT hand? where's all the blood? all these questions and more STILL LINGER. there are thousands more that also STILL LINGER. will we ever know what happened? probably not.)

More fiction stated as fact.

 prove me wrong.

 by the way, what part of that is fiction? 

as for vince foster, they found NO blood at the scene in the park, they found NO bullet, they found NO evidence of suicide except finding him dead, face down in an open area, no note at the scene, nothing.

they DID find a note at his home, they also found signs of breaking and entering. so go figure.

there are far too many unanswered questions about bills buddy vince.

do you deny the rest?

 the problem with abortion is that it ISN'T RARE. it's very common.

what do you propose to do about that?

how is spending our tax money in another country so THEY can have common abortions going to make it RARE?

crazycajun:

 the problem with abortion is that it ISN'T RARE. it's very common.

what do you propose to do about that? 

Well, from what I read here, you are the Wizard with all the answers.  What is your solution to the problem of making abortion rare?

We do know what does not work.

Making abortion illegal doesn’t make abortion rare, only drives it underground, out of sight and makes it unsafe.

Inflicting emotional torture on women who are thinking about having an abortion, or who have had an abortion hasn’t made it rare.  It only has created more misery.

Sending masses of young men away to fight wars doesn’t work.  Who knows?  It may even help increase the incidence of abortion.

Crashing the economy doesn’t work.  It only puts more women and their partners under economic stress, and increases the incentive to abort pregnancies.

Keeping women in poverty doesn’t prevent abortion.  According to the Guttmacher Institute, 57% of women who have abortions are classed as economically disadvantaged.

Being religious apparently doesn’t prevent abortion.  The Guttmacher Institute reports that 78% of women who have abortions have a religious affiliation.

Sexual abstinence indoctrination does not work.  Recent studies have shown it probably even increases the incidence of unwanted pregnancy and abortion.

Putting huge effort into making abortion illegal doesn’t work.  It only distracts us from grappling effectively and realistically with the underlying issues that give rise to abortion. 

According to the Guttmacher Institute, about 22% of all pregnancies in the United States end in abortion.  Not coincidentally, almost half of all pregnancies in the United States are unintended, and 40% of those end in abortion.  Maybe that provides a clue as to where we should start if we really do want to make abortion rare, which is a very worthy goal, indeed.

 I have an Idea...........  How about all the republican conservatives kill two birds with one stone.

They are Pro-gun

They are Pro-life

Right??

They should get their guns and shoot their diks.

Problem solved.

 not very polite, blue.

nor very FAMILY FRIENDLY.

you obviously didn't read the policy memo. or you don't care about it.

liberals like guns too, only they DON'T like guns in the hands of the citizens, only in the hands of the police, their bodyguards, and the state security services.

so, why do you feel it necessary to kill innocent babies?

SaneMichigander:

crazycajun:

 the problem with abortion is that it ISN'T RARE. it's very common.

what do you propose to do about that? 

 

Well, from what I read here, you are the Wizard with all the answers.  What is your solution to the problem of making abortion rare?

 

We do know what does not work.

 

Making abortion illegal doesn’t make abortion rare, only drives it underground, out of sight and makes it unsafe.

 

Inflicting emotional torture on women who are thinking about having an abortion, or who have had an abortion hasn’t made it rare.  It only has created more misery.

 <so, all we have to do is stop women from THINKING about abortion and they won't be miserable anymore??? is that what you are saying???>

Sending masses of young men away to fight wars doesn’t work.  Who knows?  It may even help increase the incidence of abortion.

 <it certainly does. women go out and screw around, get pregnant from 'JOE-D" and have an abortion so they won't get caught, and divorced. they want to keep their little lives moving right along, and it wouldn't look good when hubby (or boyfriend) is out fighting a war and she's at home slutting around.>

Crashing the economy doesn’t work.  It only puts more women and their partners under economic stress, and increases the incentive to abort pregnancies.

<especially those pregnancies that come from women slutting around with men with money. (you see a pattern building here??)

 

Keeping women in poverty doesn’t prevent abortion.  According to the Guttmacher Institute, 57% of women who have abortions are classed as economically disadvantaged.

<how rich do you have to be to say NO?>

 

Being religious apparently doesn’t prevent abortion.  The Guttmacher Institute reports that 78% of women who have abortions have a religious affiliation.

<yes, they report having a religious affiliation. they also have 'relationship issues', such as "the baby is not my husband's" or "IF MY BOYFRIEND FINDS OUT...">

 

Sexual abstinence indoctrination does not work.  Recent studies have shown it probably even increases the incidence of unwanted pregnancy and abortion.

<kind of like ANTI-DRUG PROPAGANDA.>

 

Putting huge effort into making abortion illegal doesn’t work.  It only distracts us from grappling effectively and realistically with the underlying issues that give rise to abortion.

<WHICH IS..... (this ought to be good)> 

 

According to the Guttmacher Institute, about 22% of all pregnancies in the United States end in abortion.  Not coincidentally, almost half of all pregnancies in the United States are unintended, and 40% of those end in abortion.  Maybe that provides a clue as to where we should start if we really do want to make abortion rare, which is a very worthy goal, indeed.

 <well... let's see.. 50% of all marriages end in divorce. usually because of cheating spouses and pregnant girlfriends. hmmmm... perhaps we should ban marriages of people who cheat... that could be a start. or perhaps raise taxes to build orphanages for UNWANTED WAIFS. now, i notice that the women DIDN'T WANT THE BABY while they DID WANT TO DO EXACTLY WHAT MAKES BABIES. very UNRESPONSIBLE OF THEM, would't you say??? abortion is simply an easy way to shirk responsibility. it's not that they DIDN'T WANT THE BABY, THEY DIDN'T WANT THE RESPONSIBILITY FOR RAISING THE BABY.>

 

 by the way, sane...

you never answer how spending our tax money to give another country abortions is going to make abortions rare...

how has the left been trying to accomplish THAT goal?

 making abortions LEGAL certainly hasn't made abortions rare, or very much safer. problems still happen. women are still scarred for life. you can't tell me that a doctor performing hundreds of abortions a day in an underfunded little clinic is going to observe every safety precaution for every patient, can you?

making abortions EASY TO GET certainly hasn't made them rare. nor has it swayed ONE person against killing the child.

making abortions GUILT FREE certainly hasn't made them rare. but it HAS increased the numbers of abortions.

it's not looking too much like the goal of the left is to make abortions RARE, is it?

i don't believe that it IS the goal of the left to make abortions rare. not with the president giving our tax money to other countries to allow them to have abortions.

seems like HE'S spreading the killing around. which only goes to show that while dems decry a war where children die, they UPHOLD and EVEN FACILITATE a program that allows, even FORCES more children to die.

so much for FREEDOM OF CHOICE. allowing another country to CHOOSE TO KILL THEIR CHILDREN TOO. another case of our government doing a job it's not supposed to do. making choices for other free and soveriegn countries.

isn't that other country FREE AND CAPABLE of making it's OWN CHOICES?

what do they need our tax money for? 

not for HEALTHCARE, certainly. abortion doesn't IMPROVE THE HEALTH OF ANYONE, ESPECIALLY THE BABY.

So, crazycajun, now that you've spewed and sputtered all over the place, let's see your answer.

Just what is your solution to the problem of making abortion rare?  

We don't even ask you to come up with an effective solution, one that might actually work.  We won't even expect you to produce a single documented fact to support your idea.  

This is your big chance, oh Grand Wizard of KnowEvereything.  Just spit it out.

What is your solution to the problem of making abortion rare? 

 you, in case you hadn't noticed... and you hadn't.

were asked first.

i'm still waiting to see YOUR solution of making abortion rare. i just pointed out that several of the liberal's last few moves have been pointless.

so.... i'm waiting on you, the ball is in your court.

you'll get my answer, complete with references that even YOU can't refute AFTER we've read your (or your party's) solution.

this should make interesting reading.

or not... probably not.

 by the way, i'd like to welcome you and trueblue back to the realm of name calling and generally nasty posting.

obviously the editors like trueblue a lot to let him keep on posting with commentary like that.

Bump.

SaneMichigander:

So, crazycajun, now that you've spewed and sputtered all over the place, let's see your answer.

Just what is your solution to the problem of making abortion rare?  

We don't even ask you to come up with an effective solution, one that might actually work.  We won't even expect you to produce a single documented fact to support your idea.  

This is your big chance, oh Grand Wizard of KnowEvereything.  Just spit it out.

What is your solution to the problem of making abortion rare? 

 

Now, if you don't have a solution, that's perfectly OK.  

But for a change, how about showing us the common courtesy of answering a simple, direct question.  It would be a breath of fresh air on this forum.

 since you can't. and won't answer the question put to you, i will tell you what you cannot bring yourself to say.

the answer consists of only four words. but they are very big words.

the reason you cannot bring yourself to answer this question is that your side DOESN'T WANT TO MAKE ABORTIONS RARE.

but here is the answer you seek.

you won't like it, but here it is...

HOLD THE MOTHER RESPONSIBLE.

if SHE has the choice... if SHE has the RIGHT TO CHOOSE... then SHE and SHE ALONE must be held RESPONSIBLE for the results of her choice.

despite that pregnancy ALWAYS has two people involved. SHE has the ultimate decision making power.

SHE decided to have unprotected, irresponsible sex.

SHE decided to abort the baby, for only (according to you) SHE CAN MAKE THAT DECISION.

SHE got up and ACTED on that decision. and another PERSON, the CHILD IN THE WOMB suffered for it.

there is your answer. an answer that you could not have given, for you do not believe that common abortions numbering in the thousands is a problem. 

 but WHY should abortion be legal???

you never do say...

some feel that an abortion is the willful killing of an innocent child. tantamount to murder.

why should it be legal?

in every abortion, the baby ends up dead. why should THAT be legal?

why SHOULDN'T the mother be held responsible for the life and death of her baby? it IS her body, isn't it? is SHE not responsible for what goes on with her body??? isn't it time that women TOOK RESPONSIBILITY????

i guess you don't want them to do that, either, as you don't advocate responsibility in any form.

IF WOMEN HAVE THE RIGHT, THEY HAVE THE RESPONSIBILITY. HOLD THEM TO IT.

People were so concerned about what Clinton was doing under his desk-they never noticed what was going on on top----The military had Bin Laden in their sites and Clinton told them do not fire..........by the way-there was a surplus with Clinton coz he was sooo busy selling more of our country to other countries.......

Abortion is murder-plain and simple. It shouldn't be made rare-it should be made illegal.....

 isn't it going to be something when the chinese use OUR technology to drop missiles on OUR soil, thanks to bill.

SaneMichigander:

You don't approve of abortion?  Don't have one.

Abortion should be legal,

<WHY should abortion, the killing of a person inside a woman, BE LEGAL? it ISN'T legal to kill a person OUTSIDE a woman, what makes the placement of that person INSIDE that woman give the woman the right to kill that person? it's the WOMAN that decided to place that person there in the first place. what JUSTIFICATION do you use for the killing? >

 

 as a matter to be decided by the woman who is affected, safe and rare.  

<again, what gives the woman the right to decide to kill that person? she doesn't have the right to kill any other person, does she? doesn't that PERSON inside of her have the RIGHT TO LIFE? (as quoted in the preamble of our constitution so many times on this site)>

Largely, we have accomplished the first two objectives, despite ongoing efforts to reverse that progress.  History tells us that making abortion illegal will not put an end to it, but only will force it underground, making it less safe.

<history tells us that making speeding illigal did not put an end to people driving fast. making murder illegal did not put an end to people killing other people, making theft illegal did not put an end to people stealing. the law does not STOP the activity, it PUNISHES those who do the act.>

Far more effort -- effective effort -- needs to be expended on making abortion rare.  An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, according to the old wisdom.  Preventing unwanted, ill-advised and unplanned pregnancy would greatly reduce the demand for and occurrence of abortion.

<but so far, NO effort is being expended in that area. in fact, the effort that IS being expended is directed in quite the opposite direction. look at the claptrap that passes for entertainment on the 'boob tube'. look at the content of magazines directed at young people, look at our educational system. they ALL fail to expend any effort to prevent unwanted, ill-advised and unplanned pregnancies. by the way, since when is an UNWANTED PREGNANCY, AN ILL-ADVISED PREGNANCY OR AN UNPLANNED PREGNANCY JUSTIFICATION FOR TAKING A LIFE?>

Unfortunately, there often is more political profit to be mined from complaining about a problem than actually doing something to correct it.  That is especially true where emotion rules reason, as in the case of this topic.

<i'm asking that the laws proscribing the killing of a person be extended to the person growing in the womb of that woman. as it is the PERSON IN THE WOMB who is in charge of the processes happening inside her body and outside, the PERSON IN THE WOMB is controlling the changes occuring to the woman, not the other way around. the WOMAN is a SLAVE TO BIOLOGY, being prepared to increase the number of PERSONS on the planet. if she isn't ready for such SLAVERY, such responsibility, then the woman's duty is NOT TO CREATE THE LIFE IN THE FIRST PLACE. it is incumbent on the woman to keep her reproductive ability in check until she WANTS to be pregnant, until she is WELL ADVISED to get pregnant, and until she PLANS to get pregnant. to do anything less is immoral.>      

 why does the left condone WOMEN being irresponsible by allowing them to CHOOSE to have abortions to cover up their irresponsibility but they WILL NOT allow men (most motorcycle riders are men) to be irresponsible by allowing them to CHOOSE not to wear a helmet?

why does the left CONDONE killing of an individual inside of a woman who has done nothing to society, but WILL NOT allow heinous murderers to be killed after they have done the cruelest and most heinous crimes against society?

they say they are PRO-CHOICE, but do not support EVERYBODY'S right to choose, only those that CHOOSE to get abortions.

they say that they are AGAINST killing, but routinely kill those innocents who have done nothing, but allow killers to languish in prisons at great public expense because they DON'T WANT MURDERERS KILLED.

now, many on the left will say that THEY are against killing, or getting abortions, but they support the RIGHT of the woman to KILL THEIR BABIES. these same leftists will whine that killing a murderer is killing an innocent, but killing a baby is not.

it seems that those on the left have a strange notion of innocence.

it seems that those on the left have MANY strange notions.