Michigan Votes Forum

 no, sane.

i have a very clean mind. and a functioning one. i am no one's sock puppet, but i do owe a debt to cajun. he taught me a lot that twelve years in public schools in michigan did not. and that four years in a michigan public college did not.

you have not yet gotten your hands out of your diapers.

i'd much rather be friends with him than even pay the slightest attention to you. but you are more than welcome to continue posting your thoughts, or lack of them, here.

and once again, everything is sexual to you, and always directed at other men. cajun is right about you.

and as you have not posted an answer to my questions, i have won the little bet we have here. thanks. when i called you out by asking you to back up your beliefs, you balked. you hesitated for a couple of hours, probably scouring the internet for a pithy reply that would uphold the liberal ideal. all you got was another personal attack.

one of the founding documents of this nation was the declaration of independence, but it seems that all liberals want is more dependence upon government. perhaps cajun is also right about you being dependent upon the government for your survival. it certainly seems as if you toe the liberal line a little too voluntarily for someone who has made it by the sweat of their own brow.

i'm certainly enjoying our time together, and my new laptop. it's certainly fun calling you to task and seeing you fail miserably at it. i hope you realize that the rest of the state is watching you fail as well. personal attacks are certainly fun to read, but in the end, your thoughts only go to sex with other men, not the betterment of this state.

no wonder you fight for gay rights so viciously

 

 the job of government is to provide only those necessary laws which protect and defend the rights of it's citizens, to provide punishment for violation of those rights and a positive disincentive for the removal of those rights. the job of government is not to make extra rights for certain groups which it supports and less rights for those it doesn't, it is to protect and defend equal rights for all.

the job of government is to enforce those laws vigorously, fairly, and impartially, promoting justice without agenda.

the job of government is to protect it's citizens from enemies, both from without and within. it does this using the might of the citizens marshaled against the common foe. it does this with arms readily available to the citizen as a first line of defense against not only enemies from foreign shores, but tyranny from our midst.

the job of government is to provide what few needs the people cannot do, not will not do. it performs it's work using funds taxed fairly from it's citizens, and spends the money frugally, so as to be a good steward of the treasury of the citizens.

we place in our representatives the power to speak for us, but not to rule over us. we give them the authority to write necessary laws, not capricious attempts to alter society to fit their agendas. and we hold our representatives in trust that they will honorably guide us to continued freedom and enjoyment of our rights with the ability to do our duty as we see fit.

we place our trust in our citizens, not to care for us, as we can, if left alone, take care of ourselves, but to be on the watch for injustice and tyranny. the least of our citizens can become, with initiative, the wealthiest, the richest, and even the most powerful, but can never be a driver of slaves, or a usurper of rights. it is the duty of all citizens to uphold his own rights, and the rights of those oppressed by corruption and greed, even if that corruption and greed is from our own government. it is not the duty of the citizens to band together to steal from the citizenry to provide economic equality.

because our economic system is based on reaping the rewards of hard work, there will be those with less than others. those who will not work for the reward. to those, no reward should be given. for those who CANNOT work, the charity of the family, the church, and the community will serve them.

we, the citizens, hold the government to do it's job, but not any others. we hold it just as responsible to NOT do what it has no purpose doing as we hold it responsible to do the job for which we ordained it.  

 

 

Although I agree with many of your sentiments, I don't agree with all.

I will follow and defend the constitution of the United States. I agree with all of it.

 so please tell us what part of it allows you to impose your will on the people?

We the People.

 once again... mob rule trumps citizen's rights. don't ALL citizens have rights? one of the the greatest arguements against democracy is the one that states, "the rights of a man can just as easily be trampled by ten thousand tyrants one mile away as they can by one tyrant ten thousand miles away."

I hope you know, and fully understand what you are advocating. Sound's to me like anarchy.

If that is your wish, understand there are no people on earth that have been successful in anarchy, that is, the absence of government, which is how Webster defines it. You may find an uninhabited island somewhere, or some isolated piece of land where you could practise this ideology, but the rest of us must live with laws and rules, and that requires government. I prefer our form, a democratic republic, to any other, even with all of it's faults.

 anarchy is not simply a place where there is no government, a place of chaos, but a place of such order and discipline that government is not needed or wanted. a place where all are self governing. while we are discussing failed political systems, there have been no successful socialist systems, no successful communist systems, no successful democratic systems. all have failed.

our constitutional republic has been around only a short while, but it is a model for others to follow. if we are to take the lessons of history seriously, we must learn that people who CAN vote themselves a piece of the treasury WILL vote themselves a piece of the treasury, and once they do, why should they work?

we should also learn that mob rule is never a preference for civilized governments. it is a government of last resort. something to be avoided at all costs. mobs destroy rights, freedom and civilization quickly and efficiently, faster than they destroy lives and property. your reliance on 'mob rule', or democracy, is very telling. it says that your ideas are counter to civilization and conducive to the chaos which you fear so. it says that your ideas would never stand up to reasoned debate, but only attract the 'mob mentality', the "GIMMEE generation" if you will.

your logic says "who wouldn't want something for nothing, something you don't have to work for?" the truth is, i don't. i'm not sure why you do, but i'm sure you have your reasons.

we only need those laws that are necessary, not those multitudinous laws that guide society against it's will. 

i don't need a law to tell me it's wrong to take your rights away. obviously you haven't learned that lesson yet. i don't need a law to tell me that it's not a good idea to smoke, but i also don't need a law to force someone else to stop because YOU think it's a bad idea.

laws are to govern SOCIETY, not to govern the individual's every choice. free men feel their hackles raise every time some leftist starts a sentence with 'I DON'T WANT YOU TO (insert bad habit here) SO I'M GOING TO BAN IT." 

Your definition of anarchy is quite different from Websters.

Your describtion of my logic is also quite different from what I have stated, and in fact how I think.

You are also quite wrong when you state that all other forms of government have failed. If you mean failed by not surviving forever, then I would agree. If you mean failed because they came to an end, then I would disagree. All forms of government will end, or transition, eventually. Even ours. Some other derivative will come along and supplant it. But for the present time, we have a very successful, and most would say fair, form of government. We have made mistakes in the past; slavery, treatment of native-americans etc., but we regonize these failings, and have worked to improve.

We do need laws, we are in fact a nation of laws. That's what the constitution is, a blueprint for our laws.

I don't know what your point is about saying I want something for nothing. I don't, never have. I don't see the government as giving us anything for nothing. We pay taxes, we vote, we expect something for what we put into our government. We are our government. That is democracy, and that's what this nation is, a democratic republic. If you want it to be something other than that, have at it. But just pretending it is doesn't make it so.

 

 did your history teacher tell you that we are a democratic republic? if so, why do we even NEED a constitution? no other democracy has needed one. in fact, it wasn't until the british decided to supplant the monarchy that a constitution was even thought of. they understood that random laws, either from a monarch or from a mob, was not a good thing.

what laws do you need? that is a function of how 'self governing' you are. if you are apt to go out and stomp on other's rights and liberties, then yes, you need more laws than those who are not. anarchy is the state of self governance. nothing more. you read chaos and confusion into that definition. you fear this chaos even as you work to achieve it.

remember that the original framers didn't want 'the people' to have a vote, only THE PEOPLE WHO OWNED PROPERTY and thus, paid taxes. they understood the dangers of giving those who have no stake in government control over it. a lesson some of us have forgotten.]

 you want the government to stop others from smoking so you don't have to smell the smoke. nothing less will do.

I appreciate you telling me what I want, but let me assure you, I know what I want without you telling me, and I'm doing a satisfactory job of expressing it to others on my own.

Thanks anyway.

 you have a strange definition of satisfactory. you've told us the what, when are you going to get to the why? why show honesty about totalitarian ideals in one thread, and be shy about showing them here? you've stated repeatedly that your rights trump other's rights. you firmly believe in mob rule over the rule of law, and you think that government is there to solve your social problems.

i'd say your definition of citizenship needs some work as well.

 and why is it that every political system you can imagine working, every worldview you express, has you as the ruling class and the rest of the people as the peons? why must every problem you have be solved by the iron fist of the government? why is more government and bigger government always the answer. personal responsibility seems anathema to you, as if it is never part of any solution you can think of?

 in your world, rights seem to be only granted to you, and only seem to be able to flow from you. it seems as if you ignore or reject the rights of those with whom you disagree.

these questions are not meant to insult, but to verify facts as you have presented them.

uber-liberal:

you have a strange definition of satisfactory. you've told us the what, when are you going to get to the why? why show honesty about totalitarian ideals in one thread, and be shy about showing them here?

Strange to you, not to me. I have told you the why, you do not listen. I have no totalitarian ideals. Quite the contrary. Again, you project your preconceived ideas onto me.

uber-liberal:

you've stated repeatedly that your rights trump other's rights. you firmly believe in mob rule over the rule of law, and you think that government is there to solve your social problems.

I have said with rights come responsibility. I do not believe in mob rule. Again, your preconceived idea.

uber-liberal:

i'd say your definition of citizenship needs some work as well.

Of course you would say that. You don't agree with me.

 this is how you replied when asked what part of the constitution allows you to impose your will on the people?

jmangan:

We the People.

 that sounds exactly like mob rule to me. no talk of 'my rights' or 'my liberties', only the power of WE THE PEOPLE.  proof positive, in your own words of your support for and belief in, mob rule.

uber-liberal:

and why is it that every political system you can imagine working, every worldview you express, has you as the ruling class and the rest of the people as the peons?

I do not imagine me as the ruling class, nor you. Never said I did. That's laughable.

uber-liberal:

why must every problem you have be solved by the iron fist of the government? why is more government and bigger government always the answer. personal responsibility seems anathema to you, as if it is never part of any solution you can think of?

Again, your not listening. Every problem cannot be solved by the iron fist of government. More or bigger government is not the answer, better government is. Personal responsibility includes participating in that government to make it better. Something you should try.

uber-liberal:

in your world, rights seem to be only granted to you, and only seem to be able to flow from you. it seems as if you ignore or reject the rights of those with whom you disagree.

Absolutely untrue. That is the exact opposite of what I believe, and have stated over and over to you on this forum. Your don't pay attention.

uber-liberal:

these questions are not meant to insult, but to verify facts as you have presented them.

I know exactly what these questions are meant to do. They are meant to express your view of how our nation should be governed, or not governed. You use outrageous questions to further your arguments, because your argument needs to crush other ideas to ever be viable. Your questions follow the tactic employed by your talk show host leaders like, " Why do Democrats hate our country?" All your questions are based on false presumptions.

Your ideology is basically anarchy. You like to call it libertarian, but thats like calling a gun a tool.

 

 

 

 

Sec. 23. The enumeration in this constitution of certain rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage

others retained by the people.

History:

 

Const. 1963, Art. I, § 23, Eff. Jan. 1, 1964.

 

Article 3. Section 7. - Common law and statutes, continuance. The common law and the statute laws now in force, not repugnant to this constitution, shall remain in force until they expire by their own limitations, or are changed, amended or repealed.

uber-liberal:

by the people.

That's us you know, the people.

 you and your mob. you get your way by being in the 'gimmee' majority. rights and freedoms (except yours) are forgotten.

We'll protect your rights too. That's our ideology. That's the why you and I can discuss this on this forum.

 why should i think you'll protect my rights when you are actively trying to take away a bar owner's right to choose, and a smoker's right to smoke in that bar?

 if a person must destroy rights to protect rights, what rights are safe from that person? i would say none. there is no right that is too sacred not to be sacrificed for 'the common good'. we can only await now to see the type and kind of tyrant making the decisions.

i've stood by the sidelines long enough. my rights are too important to let you throw them away. it's time for action. i promise to fight harder to protect my rights and the rights of other citizens than you will fight to take them away.

You didn't fight hard enough before the last election. Either that or the majority of the people realized it's time we quit being selfish and start making this country work again, for the good of all of us.

 i told you that i sat on the sidelines, but no more. besides, the election has nothing to do with it. holding representative's feet to the fire from both parties is a big part of the plan. besides, you should talk about being selfish, trying to deprive smoker's and businesspeople's rights just so you can be comfortable while you drink.

 i notice that no person representing the liberal wing of either political party has posted what they believe that job of government is.

 

 The Job of Government? 

U.S. Postal Service, broke and bankrupt.  Yet the head rip-off man and CEO is making a killing at the taxpayers expense. How much longer is this going to go on? Time to let the USPS to go don't you think?

http://money.cnn.com/2012/03/02/news/economy/postal_chief_pay/index.htm

The U.S. Postal Service is, by law, an "independent establishment" of the executive branch. The agency doesn't normally use tax dollars for operations, but it is working with a $12.9 billion loan from Treasury. Under the law, the agency is supposed to compensate senior officers comparable to similar jobs in the private sector. Donahoe's compensation in 2011 was less than half what his predecessor as postmaster general, John Potter, made in 2010 -- $798,418. Potter retired last year.

Liberals and their "Big and Bigger Government" which also comes with Big & Bigger taxes to pay for these legacy costs attached have now brought you this in Detroit.  Typical of what entitlements when "dished out" to create or study government sponsored jobs.....this is what you get!  One word:  Waste.  Barack and your communist regime.....you are the laughing stock of the world and yet you have your typical moonbat supporters still chanting your name. Mmmm, Mmmm, Mmmmmm! 

 

http://sweetness-light.com/archive/150k-business-attire-grant-only-aided-two

Looks like at least a couple of the liberal moonbats are finally waking up. The rest...................still believers of the "moons": ................. .............. http://moonbattery.com/?p=10476

Is this the job of our Michigan government or have we been taken over by Nazi's? What's up with this? . http://www.naturalnews.com/035585_Michigan_farms_raids.html http://www.independentsentinel.com/2012/04/wikileaks-democratic-voter-fraud-won-pennsylvania-ohio-in-2008/

To the Residents of the great state of Michigan: We'll get to your Obama comments Ted.........but first........... http://therealrevo.com/blog/?p=72688#comment-98535

Does your government "own" you or your kids? Think twice on this one. This is what Barack Obama is doing to make everyone one who goes to school for higher learning to be subservient to him ...............for votes. ....................... http://therealrevo.com/blog/?p=74809

Is it the job of government to commit fraud at the taxpayers expense who pick up the tab? It is happening in New York City and also Michigan, although to not the extent. ...................Please introduce legislation to insure that we do not end up like New York City. Below is what is wrong with the "system" that needs immediate repair. http://sweetness-light.com/archive/workers-on-ss-disability-outnumber-nyc

Your taxes, your money and your lively hood have been "Re-Distributed" by the way of Obama-Cronyism. Here is the list of failed and bankrupt green energy companies that have also donated to the Barack Obama re-election campaign. ( Cut & Paste ) List Of Failed Green Energy Jobs – By Obama Solar Trust of America: FAIL Bright Source: FAIL Solyndra: FAIL - ($535 Million) LSP Energy: (Light Squared) FAIL Energy Conversion Devices: FAIL Abound Solar: FAIL SunPower: FAIL Beacon Power: FAIL Ecotality: FAIL A123 Solar: FAIL UniSolar: FAIL Azure Dynamics: FAIL Evergreen Solar: FAIL - ($5.3 Million) Ener1: FAIL . Geothermal Power ($98.5 million) Embraer of Brazil ($1 billion) Siga Technology Inc ($433 million) Granite Reliable Wind Generation ($168.9 million) Tonopah Solar Company - Crescent Dunes ($737 million) CH2M Hill ( $2 Billion) Spectra Watt ($500,000) bankrupted Mountain Plaza ($424,000) bankrupted

OBAMANOMICS - "OUTSOURCED" The truth about how Barack Obama shipped the "Recovery" overseas. http://www.obamanomicsoutsourced.com/