Michigan Votes Forum

 i'll pick on kennisaw first...

their murder rate is down to THREE in the last five years. detroit's is three in the last five hours.

their violent crime is down seventy eight percent in the first year of the mandate, and down by half again every year since.

detroit's is down by a small percentage ONE year.

kennisaw doesn't have a large police force, it doesn't need one.

detroit has thousands of sworn police officers, and it can't keep up with the murders alone, much less all the other crime.

kennisaw's mandate is working. it's accomplishing the goal. detroit's mandate of DISARMING THE POPULACE is not working. it's NOT accomplishing the goal.

now, when (if) you find the other two cities with similar mandates, we'll discuss their crime rates as opposed to detroit and flint's.

by the way, the crime statistics are from the department of justice. look them up there.

Your numbers are wrong. The url I provided in the previous reply has the correct numbers. To compare the small city of Kennisaw to Detroit is silly.

In a previous post you asked if I ever visited the West. I have, and the history of a town called Tombstone applies to your theory that if everyone is armed, crime will go down. Let's be clear, it is a theory, an opinion you have, supported with no credible statistics.

You remenber Wyatt Earp and the famous show down with the Cowboys at the OK corral. That was about Earp, the marshall, enforcing a no guns in town law. Seems with everyone packing in town, it was impossible to maintain the peace.

Earp was never prosecuted for violating the Cowboy's 2nd amendment rights, matter of fact, it never came up.

Seems gun control was a recognized method of maintaining law and order in the old west.

 Earp was never prosecuted for violating the cowboy's second amendment rights, but he WAS tried for their murders. along with the others of his 'GANG'.

THAT trial, even though he was aquitted, ruined his law enforcement career. no other city or state government would hire him after that, and even the town of tombstone didn't want him shooting up people because they didn't want to give up their guns.

oh, by the way, tombstone was thirty years old when that famous gunfight happened. there were a few others, but let's compare tombstone to detroit.

in thirty years, tombstone had one hundred and seventy eight killings on the streets, some were murder, some were self defense.

detroit has more murders than that in ONE SIX MONTH PERIOD, without counting the self defense shootings.

gun control didn't work out so well for Wyatt Earp, nor did it work out very well for detroit. or D.C. or flint.

they rate numbers 1, 2, and 3 in the nation for murders.

tombstone in it's WORST year wouldn't get half way up the list, even WITHOUT GUN CONTROL.

 oh, by the way, when 'everyone' IS armed, crime goes down.

kennesaw is living proof.

it's violent crime rate per thousand people is WELL below ours.

it's murder rate per thousand people is WELL below ours.

all because the criminals THINK that anyone they bump into MIGHT JUST PROBABLY be carrying a gun, SO THEY TAKE THEIR BUSINESS ELSEWHERE.

criminals are not stupid, nor do they have a death wish.

i'd rather HAVE a gun and never need it, than NEED a gun and never have it.

You just continue to get everything wrong Cajun. Kennesaw didn't mandate everyone carry a gun, they mandated they own one and keep it ready in their house.

You keep getting sillier and sillier when you compare the crime rates of a small town with those of a big city. Apples must be compared to apples, not oranges. Can you understand that simplification?

The law against caring a gun in Tombstone lasted longer than Earp's term as marshall, and his trial for murder did not end his law enforcement carreer.

Back to the subject of this forum. Is it your suggestion, being as you went off on this gun tangent, that allowing everyone to carry a gun would revitalize Michigan?

 it most certainly would revitalize michigan.

1. draconian gun laws would be repealed, freeing thousands of citizens to buy guns without government interference.
2. government would shrink by the sacking of the gun boards, the officers who's only job is to record gun registrations, and police chiefs that base their career on gun control.
3. the gun shops would do land office business. most gun owners buy SEVERAL guns.
4. ranges would also enjoy a boom. both in big cities and small towns.
5. the gun industry in general would also feel the effects.
6. the taxes raised by these sales alone might just get us close to solving this horrendous situation we find ourselves in.
7. the crime rate would certainly go down, as an armed society is a polite society.
8. with the reduction in crime would come the reduction in the nanny state, which could save billions.
9. self sufficency would become the norm and with it comes the confidence to embark on new ventures, opening up new job opportunities.
10. other states would use us as an example of freedom and liberty instead of derision and ridicule.

that is how michigan would be revitalized.

it worked for kennesaw, it will work for us.

it also worked for a medium sized town in florida. and it's still working there. no mandate, but a general ENCOURAGEMENT to be armed, even in public. no mandate was required, as a VAST MAJORITY OF IT'S CITIZENS TOOK UP THE OPPORTUNITY. almost a million dollars in taxes from gun sales alone was collected in just the first month.

by the way. there is no gun registration there either, or gun boards, or permits to purchase. all government expenses we can do without as they perform no function except to prepare the government to confiscate guns and nothing else.

 now, let's move on to what ELSE might revitalize michigan's economy.

1. get rid of the helmet mandate, let riders decide for themselves based on the facts, not some politician's opinion.

2. authorize a tax break for non-smoking bars. it seems that there is only one in michigan. perhaps the added INCENTIVE will be enough to get some money into it so all those non smokers can keep their promises to go to them NON-SMOKING BAR. good luck on that one.

3. cut government spending except for ESSENTIAL SERVICES. by the way, welfare is NOT an essential service.

4. lower welfare payments. make it LESS ATTRACTIVE FOR PEOPLE TO BE ON WELFARE.

5. MANDATE that welfare will only be paid for TWO YEARS.

6. with all that spending going away, the state should not need to raise taxes on anything, perhaps they can even CUT some taxes on some things. that will increase business and attract citizens.

7. review township speed zone policies. speed traps send away tourists. reasonable, truly safety based speed limits should be the rule, not the exception.

8. investigate every police stop that does not issue a citation or a warning. those are probably PRETEXT STOPS that are unconstitutional.

these few ideas should keep the state busy for a while. there are more.

 here are a few more ideas to revitalize michigan.

1. stop allowing the federal government to shove unwanted, unneeded, do nothing programs and mandates down our throats with the threat of stopping funding. if you NEED to mandate seat belts, helmets, and ridiculous speed limits, maybe you haven't done a good enough job of selling the idea that these things work as well as you say they do.

2. stop allowing the STATE government to shove unwanted, unneeded, do nothing programs and mandates down our throats with the same threat. if you NEED to mandate that we shouldn't feed deer, use certain A.T.V. trails, and make all bars no smoking, maybe you haven't done a good enough job of selling the idea that those things work as well as you say they do.

3. stop allowing LOCAL governments to shove unwanted, unneeded, do nothing programs and mandates down our throats with ANY threat. if you NEED to mandate unions in schools, photographing gun purchasers in exchange for zoning variances, and more government instead of less government, then maybe you haven't done a good enough job of selling the idea that those things work as well as you say they do.

jmangan:

s it your suggestion, being as you went off on this gun tangent, that allowing everyone to carry a gun would revitalize Michigan?

It would make it a whole lot safer. If Detroit was safe then many more folks would buy homes there and open businesses there. If the schools were safe then folks wouldn't be leaving like the place was on fire.

So yes, I think this would go along ways to revitalize Michigan.

Or we can keep doing it the liberal way and continue pouring money into down a hole, going broke and turning Michigan into a police state. By the way, how's that working out for you?

Carrying a gun might make you feel safer, not everyone else.

Thanks for asking how things are working out for me. Pretty good matter of fact, how bout you?

 i'm not here to make you feel safer. i'm here to make me safer. if i see you being attacked, and you don't seem to be doing so well defending yourself, i will step in and assist any way that i can. that includes applying deadly force if necessary, but only if necessary. i've done that several times, both as a sworn officer and as a civilian. lucky thing i had my gun with me or it could have been bad each and every time.

i COULD do like most liberals and just watch you get killed, then be a poor witness and forget what the guy looked like, letting him get away with your murder.

i know several people who have done THAT.

How would you know what "most" liberals, or conservatives, or most anyone would do?

I really don't think ones political affiliation has anything to do with ones courage. That is more a personal matter. Of course, carrying a gun would make some more courageous, or more foolish.

I'd like to hear all your stories of personal heroism. I'm sure you have a million of 'em. But you have to promise to look at the beach front property I have for sale in Arizona after you tell them.

 i know this because most liberals are ANTI-GUN, that is until they need one. they call the cops for protection, instead of taking it upon themselves to protect themselves and their family.

do i consider them cowards... yeah.

i don't know of anyone personally who has become more foolish because of carrying a gun. you seem to have a very negative opinion of something you have never had the guts to do.

just once, i'd like to get a call and have a liberal have already handled the situation. just once. i'm tired of fighting their battles for them. they need to grow a set and get some self sufficiency.

you should try that every so often.

by the way. carry a piece for a couple of years and let's see how foolish it makes you. maybe pick up a badge while you are at it. i'm sure the next guy with a gun you yell for when the chips are down for you will appreciate the fact that you think that his heroism is foolish.

i'm sure all those who are serving in our military, have served, and have sacrificed some or all will appreciate the fact that you think their heroism is foolish. they carry guns too.

you should pick up a rifle and drive down a crowded street in a hot A.O. and see how pucker factor makes YOU foolish.

perhaps when i see that guy robbing you and raping your old lady, i should just mind my own business and let you pray for faster response time.

do i think that capping the next bad guy that puts a knife in my face is a good idea... YOU BETCHA...

do i think that capping the next bad guy that puts a knife in YOUR face is a good idea... not so much anymore.

good luck.

I really appreciate your concern for my safety crazy, but rest assured, I don't need it.

And if you think everyone that carries, or has carried a gun, in peace time or in war, is a right wing conservative, then I've also got a bridge to sell, and you might want to not read so many of those cops and robber novels from the used paperback store.

Thanks again for your offer of protection, but I respectfully decline. You sound just a little too hair trigger for my liking.

 no, i don't think that everyone who carries a gun is a conservative. but MOST people who CHOOSE to carry a gun ARE.

you, on the other hand, think that everyone who chooses to carry a gun is a fool.

no, you don't need my protection now, but i doubt you are taking 9-1-1 off the speed-dialer on your phone. you may have been a soldier once, but you carried the gun because it was part of the uniform. i see that all the time in my classes. you can tell the liberals when they ask "do i really have to learn how to shoot? i'll never shoot anyone. what do i need this for?"

they usually don't last long.

just remember, the first rule of a gunfight is to HAVE A GUN.

the other guy certainly does. and he doesn't mind killing, as he knows he'll get away with it.

you put 'hair trigger' out as an insult. i take it as a compliment. it's exactly that sentiment that keeps the bad guys taking their business elsewhere. imagine that sentiment being spread over michigan. every criminal would believe that every law abiding citizen (victim) had a gun. imagine how peaceful and quiet it would be without them around to rob and steal and murder and maim. almost as peaceful and quiet as kennessaw, ga.

 i choose to carry a gun, jman. does that make me foolish?  trueblue chose to carry a gun, does that make him foolish? every soldier sailor, airman, marine, and coast guardsman chooses to carry a gun, does that make them foolish? every cop of every variety chooses to carry a gun, does that make them foolish as well?

obviously to you it does. your side promised mass murder in the streets if the gun laws were changed to allow concealed carry permits, but it never happened. why not? where did those predictions go wrong? what was the matter with the ideology that brought those predictions out that caused them to be ultimately proven wrong?

the original framers gave us the second amendment, which enumerates our right to own and carry a gun, does that make them foolish as well?

 lets legalize drugs. it would stop all the cop killings and bring down all the criminal empires that have cropped up in the world today. if we legalize drugs, tax them, and provide cheap, pure drugs on demand, the drug dealers will quickly go out of business. it's tough for a guy who sells cut coke at a hundred dollars an ounce to compete with a guy who sells pure laboratory grade cocaine for a dollar a pound.

imagine all the lives saved. imagine all the money saved. imagine all the jail cells emptied overnight.

as for the addicts... they will probably overdose in the first week, or they will control their drug use. their choice. 

 let's make the license to do business in the state of michigan cost fifty dollars. let's make the form to fill out to do business in michigan one page long. let's make public health inspections (for restaurants, diners, food processing plants, etc) cost fifty dollars and be re-done yearly and one inspection a year at random.

let's have liquor licenses cost fifty dollars. renewable yearly, and not transferrable, (as in not 'owned' by the bar owner) and not restricted by the state, county, or local laws and ordinances.

this would allow anyone who wants to start a business able to start a business. small business runs this economy, and to have rules in place that inhibit and prohibit that process is sheer madness.

silence dogood:

 lets legalize drugs. it would stop all the cop killings and bring down all the criminal empires that have cropped up in the world today. if we legalize drugs, tax them, and provide cheap, pure drugs on demand, the drug dealers will quickly go out of business. it's tough for a guy who sells cut coke at a hundred dollars an ounce to compete with a guy who sells pure laboratory grade cocaine for a dollar a pound.

imagine all the lives saved. imagine all the money saved. imagine all the jail cells emptied overnight.

as for the addicts... they will probably overdose in the first week, or they will control their drug use. their choice. 

I know this might make your head explode, but I agree with you on legalizing drugs, for the reasons you state.

Calm down now.

 no, it doesn't make my head explode. but i do feel that there may be some hope for you yet.

and i'm very calm, thank you.

I agree with legalizing drugs also. It is a total waste of time and money for the government to wage this so-called war on drugs. Legalize and tax.

 thats three votes for legalization.

repeal all 'sin' taxes. dictating morals is the perview of the church, not the government. 

 repeal all redundant social programs. they aren't working.