Michigan Votes Forum

 okay, so granmole is moving on to 'bigger and better things', when are we going to be 'BLOWN AWAY'?  it seems that she is leaving just when all the hard work is needing to be done. what's up with that?

hmmm... could it be that she NEVER INTENDED TO DO ANYTHING AT ALL OTHER THAN TO GET APPOINTED TO A CABINET POST?

i certainly don't see anything positive she accomplished here. i think we've been lied to again.

well, this opens up a great opportunity to hold president obama responsible for all of his promises, as well as each and every other elected official out there. it's time to hold their feet to the fire.

don't promise what you don't plan on delivering. jennie never learned that, now she's out.

Well Said..As long as jenny or one of her fellow anti-business travelers is running the show we will just continue our slide into the abyss.

No more evidence is needed than the fact that as michiganistan burns these idiots stay up late to argue about a stupid smoking ban.

As Sarah Palin said "Looks like all you folks need a little adult supervision"

 i've got a dumb question for you....

how come is it that the blogs on this site are all decidely LEFT LEANING? are there no CONSERVATIVE BLOGS worth quoting?

all of the "blogs" i've read are very left of center, i shudder to think what would be on here if this were not a CONSERVATIVE group running this site...

just a thought... merry christmas to one and all.

crazycajun.

First an announcement: The MichiganVotes "blog aggregator" program will be replaced shortly with a different program that displays the name of the blog from which each recent post comes (the lack of which is an egregious shortcoming in the current program, a Yahoo product.)

The answer to your question is that the number of righty blogs and lefty blogs this site takes feeds from are about even. The reason it seems like there are more lefties is because the leading lefty blogs in this state add posts more frequently during the day. Our aggregator (and the new one to come) displays the most recent posts from all the blogs we enter into it's blog roll. So if one side updates its blogs more often, there will be more posts showing from that side.

This site will try to include the most prominent blogs from each side in its aggregator. That's somewhat subjective, but not entirely so. Michigan Liberal or Right Michigan have new postings several times each day and rank relatively high in traffic ratings, so they are prominent. A blog with little traffic and few updates isn't.

There will be some additions to the blog feed when the new aggregator is installed and this may balance things out a bit, but no guarantees.

 well, that makes sense... thanks.

now, if we could only get the libs out of the government service, the world would be better

One of the things I most appreciate about MichiganVotes is that its synopses of legislative bills are (with very rare exceptions) reliably factual and objective.  That sets the stage for what could be good and constructive commentary and discussion of the bills from a wide range of political perspectives.

I also appreciate the essentially neutral posture taken by the administrator regarding blog feeds to the MichiganVotes site.  Diversity of opinion and viewpoint is inherent in a democratic society like ours and effectively reconciling those differences is essential to our success as a state and nation.  Reasoned and respectful discussion that embraces all views is an important step toward that reconciliation.

 how about having an ACCOUNTABILITY TEST?

let's see how accountable the detroit school board holds themselves for the poor performance they have shown lately. i say that the entire system should be scrapped and started over from scratch. let's have detroit do what's best for detroit and leave the state out of it. let's also find the teacher with the highest failure rate (notice i DIDN'T say DROPOUT rate.) and fire them on the spot.

let's also hold the teacher's union responsible for providing us with totally unqualified teachers for about the last twenty or so years. that means that the union hasn't held up it's part of the bargain. they promised us PERFORMANCE from the members of the teacher's union, and so far, i have seen none.

let's also quit CODDLING STUDENTS. it's about time DISCIPLINE was returned to the schools. if the parents have a problem with it, they can take their little darlings to PRIVATE SCHOOL.

these ideas WORK, even in a chocolate hell hole like new orleans. their magnet school system is among the best in the country, even after the storm.

Yeah, what ever happened to that idea where they were going to make schools post their accounts online? Sure would be interesting to see where they spend OUR MONEY.

 i would like to see the amount that the school boards and teachers spend on union dues in a year. that should clear up a lot of questions about where the money is going.

but of course, that is none of our business, according to the unions.

 last year, ford and the u.a.w. negotiated a contract for ford's employees.

it was 2,218 pages. at five billable lawyer hours per page at over $100.00 an hour, that's a LOT of money down the tubes because some union rep wants it in writing specifically what negro workers are allowed to do.

no wonder our auto companies are falling off of the face of the earth, if the unions are putting up this kind of garbage as "change for the better".

 governor granholm was on the tube this morning, complaining that the money from the first round of bailouts (which the republicans voted against) was being used (as expected) NOT to give relief to those with mortgage problems about to have their homes forclosed, but TO BUY MORE BANKS.

she complained that since the bailout money landed in the banker's laps, several BIG POWERFUL BANKS have scooped up several OTHER BIG POWERFUL BANKS.

and she didn't see this coming???

what does she suppose will happen when the rest of the money hits?

the democrats were in such a rush to give this money to the banks WITH NO STRINGS ATTACHED that they now stand flat footed in absolute wonder when this kind of thing happens.

THESE are the people we must trust our next four years to.

THESE are the people who will SUPPOSEDLY bring about change for the better.

with granholm looking like a ten year old in a casino, wondering where the money went, and obama CRAWFISHING on all of his campaign promises, and the liberal media finally having it dawn on them that they have been used to instil not CHANGE, but MORE OF THE SAME, it's not looking too friendly in old washington city these days.

now, let's see who the democrats decide to hold accountable.,.. themselves... or the previous administration?

the governor has blamed engler for all her problems and mistakes for two terms, let's see how long these guys try the same trick.

 accountability...

1. find the name of the person who has it listed on their death certificate that they ACTUALLY DIED OF SECOND HAND SMOKE.

2. find the medical necessity for partial birth abortion.

3. find out what the mayor of new york wants to do with the pictures wal-mart must now take in order to get a zoning variance on manhattan island.

4. find out what michigan plans on doing with all those names and addresses of all those gun owners, along with the serial numbers of those guns. they CERTAINLY haven't used the information to REDUCE GUN CRIME.

5. find out why it's perfectly okay for the police to pull people over for no other reason than that they are driving on public roads at two thirty in the morning.

 6. let's find out what exactly the state is doing with the money it makes from 'BAD DRIVER FEES'. if the taxes we pay are not enough, then perhaps it's time we cut some spending. hey, there's an idea the lefties never thought of.

Cut Spending??? BwwaaaaHaHa

What are you thinking? Cutting spending is something us little people do when things get tight, not mommy govenment.  Either the lefties are dumb as rocks or they think we are. I would really like to see a detailed account of where all this money goes. We could probably cut the so called law enforcement budget in half and not notice a thing. Most of the revenue agents, oop's I mean cops spend their days hiding and writing bull squeeze tickets to pad the cities bank accounts and ruin good folks lives. The cops pull anybody over for driving at night hoping to get some poor guy that had a few beers but never venture into the neighboorhoods where just seeing a cop car will cut crime. They have turned us into a police state and it's going to get much worse. After all, who can be against more police? It's like when the teachers unions want more money and if you say no to throwing more money down that black hole you are against "the children".

After the coronation tomorrow the productive class are going to see their taxes go way up.

Since the new pick doesn't seem to have to pay his taxes the rest of us are just going to have to get creative.

Hold onto your wallets, Change is Coming

 i wonder what the detroit police are going to do when all this mess get's going? how are they going to keep up with the tally? who is going to go out and collect all the bodies?

i can almost imagine detroit and flint's murder rate TRIPLING once it's realized that there will no longer be any consequences for murder. the democrats WILL forgive anything, except 'MURDER BY THE STATE', sometimes known as THE DEATH PENALTY.

 they say that the right wingers are paranoid.

today, president obama WAS RE-SWORN IN. all because one single word was out of order during the first oath of office. it must matter a lot to have a president stop in the middle of his first day in office to be RE-SWORN. democrats on the news shows all said it was UNIMPORTANT, and that no thought should be given to it.

i'd say it was pretty conservative of him to want to 'cover all the bases' like that.

at least his first executive order didn't involve gays in the military.

crazycajun:

they say that the right wingers are paranoid.

Paranoid? Maybe. Seems it is spelled out in the Constitution, (Article II, Section 1) the exact wording for the Presidential oath, and the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court messed it up. This Chief Justice is a "conservative". Maybe that's the reason Obama didn't vote to confirm him when he was in the Senate. Or maybe that's the reason the Chief messed it up.

crazycajun:

today, president obama WAS RE-SWORN IN. all because one single word was out of order during the first oath of office. it must matter a lot to have a president stop in the middle of his first day in office to be RE-SWORN. democrats on the news shows all said it was UNIMPORTANT, and that no thought should be given to it.

i'd say it was pretty conservative of him to want to 'cover all the bases' like that.

The news media also have reported that at least two other presidents retook the oath after having been sworn in under what some loonies might see as "questionable" circumstances.  One was Calvin Coolidge.

You bet the re-do was conservative move.  It truly is a breath of fresh air to see conservatism manifest itself in caution and circumspection rather than radical carelessness.  Change for the better.

One also has to wonder about Supreme Court Chief Justice John Roberts’ credentials as a so-called “strict constructionist” when it comes to Constitutional questions and matters.  He not only bungled the Constitutional script for the presidential oath, he ad-libbed and tagged on a “so help me God” finale to it.

Consider this passage from a longer discussion of that and related issues prepared recently by Charles C. Haynes of the First Amendment Center:

… Didn’t George Washington himself add “so help me God” to the oath — and hasn’t every president since followed his example? And hasn’t clergy-led prayer always solemnized these occasions, reminding us of our religious heritage?

 

Actually, the answer is “no” to all of the above. Despite what we may have learned in school, Washington did not add “so help me God,” or at least there is no historical evidence of his having done so. The story of Washington adding these words to the oath didn’t appear until 65 years after he was sworn in as president.

 

Of course, Washington may not have felt the need to mention God in the oath (or have a member of the clergy pray), as his inaugural address was filled with references to the Almighty — and even included a prayer.

 

Not until 1881, when Chester A. Arthur becomes president after the assassination of James Garfield, do we have a documented case of “so help me God” being added to the official oath. Today’s practice of the chief justice’s asking the president to repeat the phrase dates only to 1933. Moreover, clergy-led inaugural prayer is also of fairly recent vintage, having started in 1937.

 

By Charles C. Haynes

First Amendment Center senior scholar

01.18.09

There’s the facts, folks.  Make of them what you will.

 so, what the finest teachers in the world (public school teachers) tell your children about what happened on the first (and every other) inauguration is WRONG????

THEY LIED?????

HOW DARE THEY??????

i don't know what happened on that first inauguration, i wasn't there. but benjamin franklin was, and he wrote about it. so was john adams, he wrote about it.

several other people wrote about it.

we still have their letters. unless of course, THEY are lying too.....

 you may have something there... the chief justice may have recognized something he didn't like about our president, and did his small part to impede him.

who knows... perhaps you can ask the chief justice for yourself.

or you could wait till he decides to retire and read his memoirs.

 how about we hold each and every mother who gets an abortion, no matter how, no matter where, ACCOUNTABLE for the death of the child in her womb?

just like the left WANTS to hold people responsible for drunk driving when no accident has occured. no harm has been done, and you are only stopping him because of WHAT MIGHT (BUT HASN'T) HAPPENED.

the state likes to take responsibility for OTHER things, like the medical bills of people injured in accidents, so let them TAKE THE RESPONSIBILITY for punishing a mother who kills her child.

Sounds like someone may have gotten stopped for drunk driving.

 no.

according to...

the sheriff of the city and county of new york, the committee of the senate, george washington himself, john jay, secretary for foreign affairs, henry knox, secretary of war, robert r. livingstone, chancellor of new york, and several other citizens, including benjamin franklin, the first oath of office went like this. 

"A gesture of the Chancellor arrested the attention of the immense assembly, and he pronounced slowly and distinctly the words of the oath. The Bible was raised, and as the President bowed to kiss its sacred pages, he said audibly, "I swear," and added, with fervor, his eyes closed, that his whole soul might be absorbed in the supplication, "So help me God!"

so, you are telling me that all those people thought it important enough to write down, but INIMPORTANT enough to lie about?

yeah... right...

as TRUEBLUE likes to say... pffft.

crazycajun:

according to...

the sheriff of the city and county of new york, the committee of the senate, george washington himself, john jay, secretary for foreign affairs, henry knox, secretary of war, robert r. livingstone, chancellor of new york, and several other citizens, including benjamin franklin, the first oath of office went like this. 

"A gesture of the Chancellor arrested the attention of the immense assembly, and he pronounced slowly and distinctly the words of the oath. The Bible was raised, and as the President bowed to kiss its sacred pages, he said audibly, "I swear," and added, with fervor, his eyes closed, that his whole soul might be absorbed in the supplication, "So help me God!"

The above account of the first US presidential inauguration is plagiarized without even the common courtesy of attribution directly from the following internet web site:

http://clinton4.nara.gov/textonly/WH/Family/html/inauguration_history.html

Its author is unidentified.  The source of that account of the first inauguration is unidentified.  That makes it suspect.

Just thought everyone would like to know.

Keep your scholarship honest!

 all the authors are identified.

all one need do is GOOGLE the words washington's inauguration, and that is what comes up.

do you dispute the writers are HONEST?

remember washington as the president who coined the phrase "i cannot tell a lie"?

i guess you think that the teachers who taught you that were lying too.

clinton said "SO HELP ME GOD." during HIS inauguration. shrillary would have too. so did every other president.

i don't know what your beef is against God, but it must be serious.

You know, I don't want to create thread drift here but it is worthwhile tossing a "thank you" and "attaboys" to the Mackinac Center and the MichiganVotes forum administrator for changes made in this forum's software and design in November 2008.  

One of the great improvements is the ability to insert hyperlinks that permit posters to quickly and decisively direct readers to internet accessible sources of information (and opinion) upon which they are basing their comments here.  That feature alone really can make the forum more vehicle for thoughtful discussion of issues rather than a vehicle for vitriolic spews aimed at groups and individuals.  It also -- in keeping with the topic of "accountability" -- serves to make posters more accountable for what they say here, by better allowing and enabling participants to sort out the ranters from the thoughtful posters, and make decisions as to poster credibility.

Other good changes include the formatting features that allow participants to set up their posts in more readable form.  That should improve "communication."   One I particularly like is the option to use Boldface, Italic, Underlined or Strikethrough (singly or in combination) to emphasize key words or phrases.  This should help make passages more readable by discouraging use of the internet SHOUTING style employed freely by some posters.  (Of course, some buffoon surely will discover the type options and comobine them with the SHOUTING to make a bigger mess.  It is the law of unintended consequences at work, I suppose.  Alas.)

The final positive change is ability to switch the way we view topics from "flat" to "threaded" view.  This helps us sort out discussions and differentiate between posts of substance and those put up just to get in the "last word."

I think as the new 2009-2010 legislative session really gets rolling (if it ever actually does ) we will see more participation develop in this forum, and perhaps the format changes also will help upgrade the quality and usefulness of the discussion to something beyond mere entertainment. 

I join you in your "attaboy" to the Michigan votes forum for making changes to improve the design of this discussion forum, but I am less optimistic in it's future quality and usefulness. As long as some posters view this forum in terms of a battleground, that is, you either must win or lose, it will drive off the more thoughtful and curious minded participants. This is not to say some knowledge cannot be gained from the more vehement discussions, but I feel people tend to a more defensive posture when engaged in this manner, and become hardened in their positions because of the win/lose tone of discussion. This is certainly no fault of the administration, but rather a normal consequence of a free forum. It is what it is.

I agree with jmangan's points, but always remain optimistic that improvement can happen.

One step to great improvement in forums like this is clear cut rules of engagement enforced by attentive and fair but assertive moderators.  I have seen forums in non-political topic areas transformed to wonderful discussion vehicles by that means, changing the tone from confrontational to collegial.  That doesn't mean homogenization of viewpoints or stifling of dissent and differences of opinion or not dealing with controversial topics.  It means (in this case) restoration and maintenance (or achievement and maintenance) of civility in discussion of political matters that is sorely needed both on localized forums like MichiganVotes and nationally.

Think globally, act locally.  That's good advice that may be applicable here.    

 hey guys...

the TOPIC is accountability.

you haven't stuck to it for quite a while.

you HAVE trolled.

you also need to once again speak to your friend, co-conspiritor, and alter-ego, trueblue.

this place is HIS personal battleground. among others.

now, if you would PLEASE keep ON TOPIC...

crazycajun:

 hey guys...

the TOPIC is accountability.

you haven't stuck to it for quite a while.

you HAVE trolled.

you also need to once again speak to your friend, co-conspiritor, and alter-ego, trueblue.

this place is HIS personal battleground. among others.

now, if you would PLEASE keep ON TOPIC...

Your comment duly noted.

My point demonstrated and confirmed.

Thanks for the help.

 so, please answer the questions...

WHAT exactly has our governor DONE to solve the current JOB crisis in michigan?

she's had almost eight years.

WHAT exactly has our governor DONE to solve the current FISCAL crisis in michigan?

she's had almost eight years.

WHAT exactly has our governor DONE to keep BUSINESSES IN MICHIGAN?

she's had almost eight years.

and before you spout on about Engler. you must remember, our governor is a TWO term governor, the governor BEFORE her WAS her.

she got elected on the promise that she would improve michigan. that she would STIMULATE JOBS, that she would STIMULATE THE ECONOMY, that she would make our state BUSINESS FRIENDLY. she has succeeded at NOTHING she has promised in almost eight years. tell me why she should be TRUSTED to succeed in the next few months.

her beloved business tax is in the process of being repealed, not by HER but by a congress in which the TAX CUTTERS are in the distinct MINORITY.

the BIG THREE failing and bailing is not the doing of the REPUBLICAN president, but the DEMOCRAT GOVERNOR.

you don't see TOYOTA execs standing before congress with their hands out.

you don't see MAZDA execs standing before congress with their hands out.

only ford, gm, and chrysler. in fact, this is the SECOND time we've had to bail out chrysler. the previous time was under carter.

if granholm WOULD have been successful, the big three wouldn't be in the mess they are in.

if the UNIONS would have been successful, the big three wouldn't be in the mess they are in.

face it.. their crisis is NOT caused by the failure of capitalism, it is caused by a failure of the ideology of the left.

 granholm went to japan for a MONTH to get some japanese workers to come here to work. she brought a total of THIRTY FIVE workers back with her. that's thirty five jobs that AMERICANS LOST because of her little trip.

granholm HAS increased SOME jobs in michigan. she had to hire one hundred ten more unemployment workers to handle the increased load.

this thread is where we hold her accountable for her actions.

engler has been out for eight years. if the problems from engler are THAT insurmountable, perhaps YOU hired (elected) the wrong person.

now, while we are on the subject of accountability. how is obama going to account to the national media for the fact that his FIRST news conference was with EL-ARABIA news, not the alphabet news of THE COUNTRY OF WHICH HE IS PRESIDENT?

also, how is he going to account to the people of this country that the governor of his home state GOT IMPEACHED within weeks of his inauguration for selling his congressional seat?

we already SEE how he is being held accountable for WINNING THE WAR, and not SURRENDERING. i'm sure that is causing some consternation from the ANTI-WAR crowd that elected him.

now, if you know of some miraculous plan that granholm has that will restore jobs in this state, please let us know.

 it seems as if obama has picked a cabinet full of tax cheats.

one has resigned, and the rest are looking for holes to hide in.

it's so much fun to watch the liberal media report on this, you can tell it hurts them to the core.

 why do those on the left refuse to hold their candidate ACCOUNTABLE for reneging on the promises that got them elected?

possibly because doing so would also be admitting that they BELIEVED that those promises would be kept, and that holding them responsible would be admitting that they were WRONG.

i'd like to be looking sever of those from the left in the face when my questions get asked, i'd like to see the expressions on their faces, not just the silence from the keyboard.

Some times it's not good to get what you want. The last eight years are a good example for repubs.

 we didn't want granholm. YOU DID.

we didn't want to lose thousands of jobs. YOU AND GRANHOLM DID.

we didn't want to be mired in this mess. YOU AND GRANHOLM DID.

take the blame. it belongs squarely on granholm and all who voted for her.

 Still spewing ignorant crap I see.

Pffffft !

Governor Granholm has STOPED the hemorrage of MI jobs the best she could after Bush and idiot Engler destroyed the state.

Granholm is the best Governor MI has seen in decades and thats the fact.

 well, trueblue.

she didn't STOP the hemmorage... it's still spurting.

we have the highest unemployment rate in the nation and THAT is a fact. indesputable fact, verifiable fact. TRUE fact.

so, if you disagree... you LIE.

once again.

pffft....

 admit it...

she wasn't up to the task.

the big three tanked on HER WATCH.

highest unemployment in the nation on HER WATCH.

you think that's the best governor???

what makes you think so?