Michigan Votes Forum

Introduced in the House on March 27, 2007, to repeal a law that makes a school districts decision to enter third party contracts for the provision of noninstructional support services an issue that school employee unions may not include in collective bargaining negotiations with a school employer, as when a union seeks to include a provision in a school district’s contract with employees that bans the district from privatizing bus, custodial, or food services

The vote was 60 in favor, 46 opposed and 4 not voting

(House Roll Call 268 at House Journal 73)

Click here to view bill details.

This is really beyond the pail. It’s as if the MEA strategy is to assume away the reality of Michigan’s economic distress. The end result of this kind of legislation is to ensure that more and more MEA members are laid off as schools are forced to support ever increasing health care and pension benefit costs while being prohibited from finding ways to save money – SO THAT THERE’S SOME LEFT TO PAY THE TEACHERS! I think it’s time to characterize this as madness. The truth is, the MEA existing to perpetuate the MEA. It’s not about teachers anymore – they have full protections under existing labor laws. It’s about ensuring that MEA officials and the bloated bureaucracy that is the MEA (remember, you have to throw in MESSA, MEDNA, MEA Financial, Verity Insurance, MEA Legal Services and others) continues to feed at the trough. I’m all for supporting teachers but this madness has to be called out for what it really is; a money grab that is repulsive and short sighted that strikes at the heart of fiscal responsibility. The MEA and Representative Andy Meisner should be ashamed (but then I suppose it’s too much to expect any less than this type of garbage).

and all that support them are doing more damage to this country than bin ladin could ever hope to. "Memo: Legos Banned From School Legos are harmful to the development of a young child's mind. At least, that is the argument of several astute teachers in Seattle who have banned the use of the popular children's toy from their school. Here's why: According to the article, the students had been building an elaborate "Legotown," but it was accidentally demolished. The teachers decided its destruction was an opportunity to explore "the inequities of private ownership." According to the teachers, "Our intention was to promote a contrasting set of values: collectivity, collaboration, resource-sharing, and full democratic participation." The children were allegedly incorporating into Legotown "their assumptions about ownership and the social power it conveys." These assumptions "mirrored those of a class-based, capitalist society -- a society that we teachers believe to be unjust and oppressive." They claimed as their role shaping the children's "social and political understandings of ownership and economic equity ... from a perspective of social justice."

Unions are supposed to represent their own membership, not anything else they can get their hands on. The school board must retain the authority to make financial decisions -- and that includes privatization. MEA -- this is not your issue!

This is ridiculous and proof that the MEA is so far away from reality that they no longer have a clue. The sponsor(s) of this bill is also not living in the same Michigan that the rest of us are, if they think that legislation like this is going to help anything get better here. Lansing screams for schools to make the hard choices to protect the classroom, but then proposes this stupidity that very well prove to be a "Kevorkian Bill" for some school districts who made need to make this hard decision to stay in existance for the students.

Don't be fooled by the MEA attempt to buy more of Lansing. The MEA represents FAR more than just teachers (many bus drivers, cooks, custodians, etc are MEA). This feel good, "Let's protect the teachers" bill is crap and a power grab by the unions to try to protect their already fat wallets. PS MESSA BC/BS that "non-profit" that MEA owns... it made 8 million dollars profit last year. why?

We have a legislature for sale. The high bidder so far is the MEA. Do I hear another bid? Sorry this bidding is closed to the citizens of Michigan.

Gee, I wonder why the schools, the government and the US auto manufactures are in financial trouble? What do they have in common? Could it be....UNIONS?!

"Gee, I wonder why the schools, the government and the US auto manufactures are in financial trouble? What do they have in common? Could it be....UNIONS?!" Not just unions, as in voluntary associations of free individuals engaging in collective bargaining, but all the special protection and propping-up that *government* gives to modern labor unions, in exchange for votes and campaign money.

see elected officials of the DEMOCRAT VARIETY exhcanging our hard earned tax money for votes and support from the unions. is it in the democrat party platform to extort money?

The taxpayers have to fund public education. Therefore, all those in public education are answerable to WE THE TAXPAYERS who are in all truth the employers of public education, and every arm involved and under the auspices of public education. Why in the world would the taxpayers support the idea to allow the teachers union to bargain for a privatization ban, which would work against holding down costs, thereby reducing taxes? Rep. Meisner is not looking out for the grassroot taxpayers best interest. What he is looking out for are those who can fill his office holder coffers -- which is the education bureaucracy -- a very large and influential Big Brother establishment.

are socialist organizations. Everybody is equal. The worst teachers, autoworkers, janitors, garbage men etc. get the most help from the union leaders. If the unions ever admit that yes, maybe Joe does call in sick and shows up drunk way too often and should be fired or Miss Magilicutty is a crappy teacher and hates kids so maybe she should find other employment we will all be better off. Then maybe they will figure out that by golly, everyones not equal. As it is now the unions are set up to bring the workplace down to the lowest common denominator. The guy that works hard and comes to work everyday gets the same benefits as the slackers. Doesn't take long to figure out that hard work doesn't pay in a union shop or school. To keep this stutus quo the union bosses give money to the dems/libs and blame everything on the "evil rich" or "corporate America's greed", without which they would be living under a bridge and eating beans out of a can. There is a reason that when starting the uaw the reuther brothers studied in moscow for 6 months.

This bill proposes to eliminate an existing prohibition, thereby expanding the freedom of legally organized unit members to bargain over matters related to their employment. Employers don’t have to cave into every demand. Freedom is a good thing, remember?

freedom. it only allows teachers to bargain FOR a ban on privatization, not to bargain for privatization itself. that is not freedom, it's continued control from another direction. you remove one yoke of oppression from around our necks, only to have us discover you have shackled our legs. the teachers also need to be removed from the yoke of the union. unions are outdated, outmoded, and only interested in obtaining money to feed to the election funds of democrats. if they wish to bargain collectively, let them bargain WITHOUT union involvement. all the union cares about is getting dues to elect democrats.

Why just teachers? Why not food service, bus drivers, teacher aides, why should teachers hold all the cards for labor groups who they really don't care about? I am happy to see democracy prevailed!

So now we have this do nothing state house congressmen trying to tell the school boards what to do when it come to saving the tax payers money! This is a bad bill,unless the state wants to start paying all the bills for tese services! All of you fools in Lansing better get rid of term limits NOW!.So we can keep some in Lansing with some BRAINS ! ! ! ! !

Privatization is a budgetary matter, which is the role and responsibility of the school board, not the teachers. This is just another example of unions sticking their nose where it doesn't belong.

The state is constantly in fiscal trouble, and schools are struggling to make ends meet. This bill will put schools even further behind because they are squeezed behind paying exorbitant wages and benefits for low-skilled employees and the states lack of financial support. None of the schools that have privatized have done so as their first option. It is primarily because of finances. If the state took care of school funding, this bill would not be necessary. What sense does it make to tighten school funding and create a costly bill like this one?

Who are you to call people low-skilled? I have a mechanical engineering degree which I use in my maintenance position. What degree do you have? Please don't write if you have no idea what you are saying. Better yet, look in tyhe mirror! 

 perhaps too low skilled to look for other work when the conditions of your chosen profession change for the worse. perhaps low skilled enough to pay someone to keep your job for you (the union) then get upset when the union is seen for what it truly is, and backs out of helping you.

perhaps too low skilled to realize that you have spent thousands of dollars on protection that you will never see because all of it went to elect shrillary.

THAT low skilled.

yes, you may have a degree, but you sure didn't see THIS coming, did you? of course not.

you are a maintenance man with a mechanical engineering degree???? what a waste of a valuable resource... typical.

I may have been able to take your rant a bit more seriously had you started out by saying, "This is beyond the pale."  The "pail" is rarely, if ever, something beyond which things go.  I know that almost two years late in telling you this.  I hope that between your entry and mine, someone has helped you with your language use and with your views.  Thanks. 

 i don't know, t... i didn't write that first post.

but i understood what he meant.

how does a man with a degree get SWINDLED into giving up a portion of his hard earned money to an organization that promises to keep his job for him?

isn't that what COMPETITION IS FOR?

you know, being the best candidate for the position... performing your duties to the best of your ability... all that stuff.

when we hire, or retain less than the BEST AND THE BRIGHTEST to educate our children simply because they have decided to 'organize', then that degrades the entire educational system. this is exactly why detroit has so many problems. union involvement in a BEST AND BRIGHTEST decision.

i cannot say with any certainty that detroit classrooms are peopled with the best and brightest teachers, can you?

can you say that EACH AND EVERY ONE OF THOSE TEACHERS IS THE BEST THAT WE CAN FIND TO EDUCATE OUR CHILDREN?

no. it just isn't so. hundreds of them are only there because they pay union dues.

unions may once have served a purpose, but if you NEED a union to keep your job, you have lost the competition.

crazycajun:

unions may once have served a purpose, but if you NEED a union to keep your job, you have lost the competition.

Funny thing, but the competition has Unions. Check out Japan, England, Germany, Sweden, France, etc..

 oh yes, they have unions. very poorly attended unions. which have no say in keeping or firing an employee.

which has very little say in the wage an employee makes. which doesn't step into the political arena AT ALL.

now if the unions here operated SOLELY FOR THE BENEFIT OF IT'S MEMBERS instead of SOLELY FOR THE ELECTION OF DEMOCRATS, some of us would have FAR FEWER PROBLEMS WITH THEM.

now, japan has a government installed by OUR GOVERNMENT, it cannot freely elect another EMPEROR. england has a queen and a parliament, it is slowly slipping into socialism. germany is in the same government boat as japan. sweden still has remnants of a monarchy. france is bouncing from socialist to marxist (a small bounce, i know, but a bounce) and is inches away from becoming a soviet style satellite state.

which one of those do you wish we would emulate?

crazycajun:

 oh yes, they have unions. very poorly attended unions. which have no say in keeping or firing an employee.

Prove it.

 once again, you prove your ignorance. go to japan, or, for lack of anything better to do, LOOK IT UP FOR YOURSELF.

BEEN THERE, DONE THAT.

prove it for yourself. google it.

 

You see, discussion doesn't work that way. You make a statement as fact, it is incumbent on you to prove it, not someone else to prove you wrong. Get it?

 no, this is not a discussion, as discussions are usually between two people who have at least a working knowledge of the subject at hand.

you do not. therefore you keep insisting that i educate you about the subject matter. education is YOUR responsibility. learn how to EDUCATE YOURSELF.

I KNOW that years and years at public indoctrination centers have stripped you of that ability, but try anyway.

the last few times you tried it, you found out that you had been wrong in your assumptions. keep it up.

now, if this bill passes AS IS, teachers will have the ability to ONLY VOTE TO BAN NOT HAVING A UNION. in other words, they will have no free choice as to whether or not they are union members. they will be FORCED to be union.

is THAT the american way? NO.

how about giving teachers the ability to VOTE EITHER FOR OR AGAINST being in a union?

what are you afraid of? perhaps they won't all want to pay you a part of their hard earned pay?

 

 why do teachers NEED a union anyway? doesn't the state pay fair wages? doesn't the state look after it's employees? doesn't the state provide adequate healthcare? doesn't the state provide day care? doesn't the state provide job security?

if the answer to any of these is no, then THAT is a good reason NOT to have unions, and NOT to have big government in charge of ANYTHING that ISN'T THE PROPER ROLE OF GOVERNMENT.

 You asked "Why do teachers need a union anyway?"

1. Does the state pay fair wages? Not unless, as with any organization, it is made to do so. Here is an example for you. Back before I started teaching in Michigan, I explored the possibility of teaching in Texas (this was in 1993). At that time, teachers in Texas were not unionized. I do not know if they are today. The state of Texas had set a statewide base pay for teachers of $20,000 per year. That wage was before taxes. So, I would have to argue that, without the influence of unions, the state will not pay a fair wage unless made to do so.

2. Does the state look after the employees? No. The state, as with any organization, looks after itself.

3. Does the state provide health care? What state are you living in? What is the biggest area of dispute in any contract negotiation? Health care. Teachers in my district, as well as other districts around the state, have taken less in wages so that we could have health care.

4. Does the state provide day care? I wasn't sure if you meant does the state provide day care for children of teachers or if you meant does the state provide day care for the students. Either way the answer is the same -- no.

5. Does the state provide job security? No.

MichL1:

 You asked "Why do teachers need a union anyway?"

1. Does the state pay fair wages? Not unless, as with any organization, it is made to do so. Here is an example for you. Back before I started teaching in Michigan, I explored the possibility of teaching in Texas (this was in 1993). At that time, teachers in Texas were not unionized. I do not know if they are today. The state of Texas had set a statewide base pay for teachers of $20,000 per year. That wage was before taxes. So, I would have to argue that, without the influence of unions, the state will not pay a fair wage unless made to do so.

 

<so, why does the union work so hard to elect politicians that won't pay them a decent wage? why does the union spend so much money to elect "liberal" democrats who believe that the POWER OF BIG GOVERNMENT WILL CURE ALL ILLS? and why, if they are the party to cure all ills, and promote public schools, don't they want to pay for it? ;they ARE spending billions of our tax dollars already, why not spend ENOUGH TO GIVE YOU A FAIR WAGE? all they have to do is take some more of YOUR money to do it.>

 

2. Does the state look after the employees? No. The state, as with any organization, looks after itself.

<so, again, why does the union work so hard to look after the STATE and NOT IT'S MEMBERS? why do the STATE REPRESENTATIVES, who were elected on the backs of union campaign contributions turn around and screw over their biggest benefactors?>

 

3. Does the state provide health care? What state are you living in? What is the biggest area of dispute in any contract negotiation? Health care. Teachers in my district, as well as other districts around the state, have taken less in wages so that we could have health care.

<so, why does the UNION support UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE when the STATE cannot afford to provide even rudimentary healthcare to it's teachers? why are you paying the union to support and elect those same politicians who REFUSE to spend money on YOUR HEALTHCARE???>

4. Does the state provide day care? I wasn't sure if you meant does the state provide day care for children of teachers or if you meant does the state provide day care for the students. Either way the answer is the same -- no.

<you'd think that after a democrat in the mansion for eight years, she would have at least gotten you guys some DAY CARE... (do you see a PATTERN building here???)>

5. Does the state provide job security? No.

<you mean your UNION hasn't negotiated the same deal with the state that they negotiated with the BIG THREE???? for SHAME...>

 

 i'm wondering how an intelligent, educated person like yourself can still not see that the union is the ROOT of most of your problems? perhaps  you and a few dozen of the GOOD teachers who are worth more should go out and start a PRIVATE school. superior teachers would be able to charge an acceptionally high tuition, and be entirely worth it.

if you are waiting for the state to get with the program, good luck. they aren't looking out for YOU, that's for sure. 

Pretty shallow defense when your asked tp prove a statement, and instead resort to insulting the person questioning your statement.

Tell us, O neo-conservative, right wing republican guru, how has your ideology failed so miserably over the last decade? Shouldn't we be in an era of milk and honey after the 12 years of republican control of congress, and 8 years of Bush?

What went wrong? And save your advice on my educational efforts. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to fiqure out your ideology is bankrupt.

 i didn't insult anyone. i simply questioned the logic of PAYING someone vast amounts of money to keep your job, and allowing them to use the money for electing democrats.

if the union is supposed to be so strong, why are they STILL bitching that the pay isn't high enough? or that the medical isn't good enough? for what they PAID for all those things, you'd think that the union could provide it for them, but instead, it went to elect a democrat.

was that part of the NEGOTIATED PACKAGE?

 

crazycajun:

 i didn't insult anyone. i simply questioned the logic of PAYING someone vast amounts of money to keep your job, and allowing them to use the money for electing democrats.

if the union is supposed to be so strong, why are they STILL bitching that the pay isn't high enough? or that the medical isn't good enough? for what they PAID for all those things, you'd think that the union could provide it for them, but instead, it went to elect a democrat.

was that part of the NEGOTIATED PACKAGE?

 

 

 Your ignorance is an abhorant insult all on its own let alone your childish tantrums.

So why dont you answer the mans question and not constantly ask  questions of your own without answering.

      "Tell us, O neo-conservative, right wing republican guru, how has your ideology failed so miserably over the last decade? Shouldn't we be in an era of milk and honey after the 12 years of republican control of congress, and 8 years of Bush?

What went wrong? And save your advice on my educational efforts. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to fiqure out your ideology is bankrupt."

 very simple.

republican ideology isn't bankrupt,

the state of michigan IS after eight years with granholm.

now, WHO is standing before congress with their hands out?

the three detroit companies that USED to make cars. now they will make whatever the government tells them to.

so, i ask again. why couldn't granholm CURE ALL THE PROBLEMS OF MICHIGAN? why aren't the big three FLUSH WITH CASH because the democrats were in control?

why aren't the people of this country FLOCKING TO MICHIGAN instead of LEAVING IT IN DROVES?

because we are suffering from an over-abundance of democrat control in state government. we've had a ONE STATE DEPRESSION going on for six years so far, and it doesn't look like granholm is going to do anything about it anytime soon. please tell me what she's done so far to make this state better.

 You seem to be laboring under the misconception that the teachers' union negotiates contracts directly with the state. That is not, and never has been, the case. The teachers' union negotiates with the local school district.

You stated that "the union is the ROOT of most of your problems". Sorry, you're incorrect there as well. Is the union the root of SOME of the problems that education faces? Absolutely. Are the parents the root of SOME of the problems? Absolutely. Are the teachers the root of SOME of the problems? Absolutely. Are the politicians the root of SOME of the problems? Absolutely. Is society the root of SOME of the problems? Absolutely. Are the students the root of SOME of the problems? Absolutely.

What problems are solved by pointing fingers and blaming someone else? None.

There are certainly some problems and challenges facing education today. No one would deny that unless they live with their heads in the sand. However, the problems will NEVER be fixed unless everyone (teachers, parents, students and politicians) stop blaming and accusing each other, take responsibility for their part of the problem and fix what they can in their area of education.

 teachers pay is paid out of state funds, allocated to local and county boards.

i'd say that the union is a BIG part of the problem, as it perpetuates mediocre education by maintaining mediocre teachers. it also seeks advancement not based on merit, but on union membership.

they also donate money to political causes not associated with education, whether the members agree or not.

to some this is graft, corruption, and theft.

 by the way, blue...

you list chicago as your 'other home'.

pity about your democrat governor getting impeached by a unanimous vote of the illinois senate.

perhaps this will give michiganders the needed incentive to bring impeachment against granholm for really screwing up this state.

 allowing teachers to bargain against privatization is taking away their CHOICE. as in you are not allowing teachers to bargain FOR privatization.

who knows, you might just find enough teachers to whom merit is more important than union dues that might just vote FOR privatization.

but this bill takes away that FREEDOM OF CHOICE.