Michigan Votes Forum

That's right. State employees are overpaid. Without them, there would be no tax evasion and everyone would properly file their taxes. Without them, everyone would have a job and everyone could spend enourmous amounts of money. But here's a question for you? What about what they have given up? I've been a state employee for 3 years and in my first 7 months, I was forced to take 5 unpaid days off because of budget problems. Also, for the first year and a half, I was required to work 80 hours per pay period (two weeks) while getting paid for 76. The other 4 were banked as leave time that I could use at a later date. Now, if the budget doesn't get balanced soon, I am looking at 20 unpaid days off by October 1. And they can't be consecutive because they don't want us to collect unemployment. In case you don't understand, 15,000 employees are losing a month of pay over the next 5 months. We are sacrificing our personal income for lower taxes. Would you like to donate a month of salary to keep taxes lower? One other thing. I am NOT exempt from the income, sales, use,property or any other taxes that the state enforces. That means that I am paying for part of my own salary. Are you doing that?

... "I am NOT exempt from the income, sales, use,property or any other taxes that the state enforces. That means that I am paying for part of my own salary. Are you doing that?" In case YOU don't understand, I am paying ALL your salary. People in the private sector do actual work that add to the economy. They generate wealth by their efforts. You, at best, if you serve as a teacher, policeman, or in the judiciary, may mimic work done by the private sector, although less efficiently. Anyone else is a weeping sore, no, a blood-sucking leech, on the body economic. What wealth have you generated with which to pay taxes? You haven't done anything. You are paid with money stolen from productive workers, and given to you to provide "useful govenment services," most of which wouldn't be done without a law requiring it to be done. "Without (state employees), there would be no tax evasion and everyone would properly file their taxes." Let me see. Without state employees to enforce tax collection, we wouldn't have enough money to pay the state employees to enforce tax collection to pay for the state employees to enforce tax collection ... Brilliant.

More than willing to pay a little extra for the sake of fellow citizens. The vitriolic demagoguery of most commenters seems juvenile. (ie you disagree with me, you are somehow a less worthy human being than i, etc. etc., very sad.) This would help solve the deficit, is simple, gives some stability to state budget to offset the current mess that could only help serve to make business leary of locating in MI. A little self sacrifice? Why not.

If you want to pay more, Do It. No one will ever stop you from throwing your money down the black hole of government. Quit trying to use the iron fist of government to steal my hard earned money. How many times do you libs have to be shown that if you cut taxes revenues will go up since business will expand and more people will have jobs. Higher taxes = less prosperity = less employment = more folks leaving = and More Government Control

SACRIFICE ENOUGH. that's why.

Realll Slooww No More Taxes!!!!

... proposed so far, the income tax rate increase makes the most sense to me. Excise taxes (sales, service, sin, etc.) and fees are inherently regressive, having a much larger impact on lower income individuals and families. The service tax also would be an excessive bruden to many small, uncomplicated service type businesses operated by individuals. Most of the sales-service tax shemes proposed are unduly complex, as is the SBT replacement. (Remember, the greatest legitimate complaint about the SBT has been its complexity.) Ideally, the income tax should be graduated. But Michigan's Constitution forbids a a graduated income tax, and to levy one would require a Constitutional amendment first. Such an amendment is unlikely to be approved in the knee-jerk "no taxes" environment that is sinking Michigan. So the simple increase in rate will have to do for now.

I like the one about CUTTING TAXES the best. Just makes sense. If your state is dying because of the tax burden only a lobotomized canine would have a hard time figuring out what to do.

raise taxes?? the FAIR TAX is a very simple proposition that does away with the state revenue agencies altogether (saving money). the FAIR TAX uses a collection system ALREADY IN PLACE (saving money). the FAIR TAX doesn't discriminate based on class or income. if you buy something NEW, you get taxed on it, if you buy something USED, you don't (ending class discrimination). there are no COMPLIANCE COSTS to the fair tax. no filing of forms, no hiring a tax advisor, no needing to remember tax dates (saving money). the FAIR TAX gets rid of punative taxes like the gas taxes, and replaces them with a FAIR across the board tax rate that takes a 75% majority of the people to raise (saving us from the tax and spend propensity of legislators, and in the end, saving us money).

... that the proposed increase in Michigan state income tax rate to 4.6 percent meets virtually all the realistic criteria for a "fair tax" you rave on about. We need to emphasize the word "realistic" because taken all together you criteria spell out a wacko's utopia in which no taxes would exist at all. The income tax rate hike is simple and straightforward, uses an agency and system already in place and functioning, and (although regressive) does not distinguish between income classes. By the way, the excise taxes on gasoline meet your criterion for fair taxes in that they do not discriminate between income classes. You really can't have it both ways, you know. Any conservative worth his salt knows that. The following gibberish that you posted puzzles me: "replaces them with a FAIR across the board tax rate that takes a 75% majority of the people to raise (saving us from the tax and spend propensity of legislators, and in the end, saving us money)" What are you trying to say, or are you just typing something that mimics the buzzing sound in your tinfoil hat?

where do you come up with this UTOPIAN bull? nobody said anything about NO TAXES. I KNOW you were educated in michigan, but at least TRY to understand what you read. try it again, maybe it'll SINK IN this time.

that the FAIR TAX has a provision in it that the tax rate can't be raised unless 75% OF THE PEOPLE vote for it. what's so hard to understand about that??? oh, yeah, it's that CAN'T BE RAISED thing that bother's you. you just can't comprehend a tax that CAN'T BE RAISED without a vote of the people.

numbskull... QUIT RAISING MY TAXES. SPEND WHAT YOU HAVE, AND NO MORE, OR GET OUT OF POLITICS.

You are talking to a wall. These right wing crybaby idiots think we can cut our way to fruition. They never stop to consider that even if you only run a lemonade stand, without income (revenue) you can't stay in business. You didn't see them complain when Engler spent us into the poorhouse- bcause he lowered their taxes. That's all these simple minded dolts can comprehend: "Taxes BAD! Mongo GOOD!".

Michigan has a reletively LOW tax base. Unless you have plans to open a Disney World, A Multi-County Casino that sprawls across 10 different counties, or a prison in your back yard- SHUT THE F*CK UP. We will never be able to get rid of taxes, you dumbass right wing cry-baby's.

Try Arizona.

Must be an email going around- this guy isn't smart enough to come up with all that on his own!

"Why not throw a 1 or 2 on the sales tax and have it refundable to citizens under a certain agreed level." Yeah, like Bush did with his tax breaks for the ultra wealthy! Dumbass.....

"Read my lips: Know New Taxes!" Too bad we didn't "know". oops! The right wingers lie also!

So if you make $50,000 a year this is really about $250 a year. I'm sure you can cut back from the usual amount you spend on NASCAR tickets and Busch beer. Hell, just the bail money alone you save if you don't get drunk and beat up your wife should cover it!

Too bad people post without knowing such simple things as the Constitution of the State Of Michigan. Granholm (or any other gov.- R or D) is required by our state's constitution to make those cuts if a budget agreement can't be reached. Too bad you are too dumb to know these things and require your right wing radio talk show hosts who are equally uninformed to think of something to post.

cuts, but has total freedom where she makes them. she CHOSE to cut police officers and to release prisoners. IF IT SAYS SHE MUST CUT THOSE THINGS IN THE CONSTITUTION FIRST, THEN WE NEED TO RE-WRITE THE DAMED CONSTITUTION.

support new taxes. they must just wet your shorts. what is your pre-occupation with busch beer, nascar, and beating up your wife? what part of NO MORE TAXES do you not understand?

I got a tax break, and i'm not ultra-wealthy. YOU got a tax break, are YOU ultra wealthy? what part of CUTTING EVERYONE'S TAXES do you not understand??? J.F.K. did it, why can't jennie.

then why are businesses LEAVING? are they going to other states with HIGHER TAX BASES???? no, they are going to other states with LOWER TAX BASES. if YOU want to pay more in taxes, then go ahead. I don't want to pay a dime more in taxes, especially if the government is frivolously spending MY MONEY. until they STOP frivolously spending my money, i don't want to give them any more. let them do like every citizen of this state has to do, make do on what you make.

this state into prosperity? how does THAT WORK???

constitution does it say she has to cut police and release prisoners? what section is that in????

we DON'T have a disney world here. but you left wingers never thought of that, did you? obviously not. that's why ten airlines don't have hubs here. that's why wal-mart doesn't have a corporate headquarters here. that's why chrysler can't find a buyer. that's why gm can't find a buyer. that's why ford can't find a buyer. they're all up for sale. i suppose that even the germans don't want chrysler anymore.

a lemonade stand. it's a lemonade stand that can FORCE you to buy lemonade. it has guys with guns that make you buy lemonade even if you aren't thirsty. it makes nothing, it creates nothing, it sells nothing. it's job is to protect the people, build and maintain the prisons, the roads, and the laws of the land. it's job is NOT to provide jobs, that's a function of LOW TAXES AND FEW REGULATIONS. where those two things exist, jobs will come. it's job is NOT to create wealth, that is up to the businesses that come for the low taxes and few regulations. it's job is to punish criminals, not to coddle them. it's job is to maintain order, not a police state. it's job is to use OUR MONEY to build roads and bridges so that we can work. it's job is NOT to take our money and give it to someone who WILL NOT WORK.

i don't plan on building a disney world, or a huge, multi-million dollar casino, or even a prison. no one there has any money. why should i waste mine by building anything there??? you'd be STUPID to invest in michigan.

liberals are out in force today. somebody must be calling for a tax cut or something. maybe someone is calling abortion murder. or maybe their loved ones are back in jail again. it must be something like that.

"Michigan has a reletively LOW tax base." Yep, that's all we citizens are--a tax base. Cattle to be milked by the insatiable and infallible state. We're clearly not being milked enough to please the welfare-staters. "SHUT THE F*CK UP." With that gleaming gem of irrefutable logic, you win the argument. "We will never be able to get rid of taxes" So instead of trying, let's pile on some more state-sanctioned theft. Wooooot! "you dumbass right wing" Dumbass libertarian here. I feel left out. Aren't you guys all about inclusiveness and diversity? "cry-baby's." Your Daily Grammar Lesson: An apostrophe does not mean, "Look Out! Here comes an s!"

"... proposed so far, the income tax rate increase makes the most sense to this here trough-gobbling statefeeder." Or, we could start hacking the blubber in earnest (and breaking your addiction to government at the same time.) What the hell is the Dept of History, Arts and Libraries, anyway? "knee-jerk 'no taxes' environment that is sinking Michigan." Laffing at "no taxes environment"--if only. Stop huffing toilet cleaner. It's the taxation and welfare-statery that's sinking us (too bad bloated governments don't really float.)

I am not a public employee. I am a self-employed service provider, who works with private sector clients. The fact is, Micghigan taxes have been cut significantly since 2000, and our state and local tax load today is below the national average. Also, since 2000, the State has trimmed 9,200 employees from its payroll, a 15% reduction. The impact at the local level has left us with 1,600 fewer police officers and nearly 2,400 efwer firefighters than we had to protect our persons and property in 2001. Lowering taxes hasn't stopped the loss of private sector jobs in the state. But it has made the state a less desirable place in which to live and work. That appears to be the reality the the no-taxes utopian wingnuts have done a great job of obscuring with their aggressive, wacko rhetoric. Having looked at the various plans and schemes proposed by the legislature, a bump in the State income tax rate from 3.9% to 4.6% of adjusted gross income as reported to the federal IRS makes the most sense to me. It's a big increase -- about 17% -- but pales next to the increases proposed for various excise taxes, which are even more regressive than a flat-rate income tax.

"The fact is, Micghigan taxes have been cut significantly since 2000, and our state and local tax load today is below the national average." Bullpuckey "Also, since 2000, the State has trimmed 9,200 employees from its payroll, a 15% reduction. The impact at the local level has left us with 1,600 fewer police officers and nearly 2,400 efwer firefighters than we had to protect our persons and property in 2001." Awesome. Now lets cut another 15 or 20% As far as the cops/revenue agents go..oh well Less cops writing less tickets stealing less of our money, what's not to like? As far as "who you gonna call" the vast majority of the time they show up after the crime since they had to be rousted out from behind the trees where they were hiding with their radar guns. When's the last time you saw one in your neighborhood? 10 years ago they Patrolled the streets, now they have allowed themselves to be turned into something like the little nitpicking kid in fourth grade that no one ever liked. Sounds like a win win to me.

Time to lay off the lacquer thinner. You actually said, in a public formum, "Lowering taxes ... has made the state a less desirable place in which to live and work." I'm awestruck. Gotta hold that one up, turn it over, sniff it. Is this for real? Gotta read that a few more times to savor it. "Lowering taxes ... has made the state a less desirable place in which to live and work." "Lowering taxes ... has made the state a less desirable place in which to live and work." "Lowering taxes ... has made the state a less desirable place in which to live and work." Good God almighty. I guess that's the reason for the mass exodus from the low-tax, light-government states in the South, right?. That's why business is booming in Michigan. I guess people really do like being burdened down by a bone-crushing "state and local tax load" (oops, think you owned yourself a little there! Typo? Maybe you meant "opportunity". But really, I can't understand how some people could support the plunder of their neighbors with such zeal (unless they've gone psychotic due to habitual inhalation of paint-stripper.) Also, I can't help but notice--it's funny how, when government downsizing is being discussed, the government always shrinks down to encompass no more than the local police and fire station and maybe a country schoolhouse or two. Its like magic. Leaving aside the question of how these local organs got their lips stapled to the state's (and fed's) saggy teats in the first place, why should they be immune to some lard-trimming as well, when they've been fattening up for so long on junkfunding doled out by nonlocal governments? (Dare cars and Homeland Security jackets, anyone?) And when the police have time to throw seatbelt-ticketing parties and other such piffle, yeah, we've got too many. And no need to get mired in the calamity that is public education in this thread, other than to note that it sucks down half of the state's annual budget (source: the back of your 2006 MI-1040). Gobs of cuttable blubber in there.

If you are going to quote someone, how about keeping it in context and doing it accurately. What actually was said is: “Lowering taxes hasn't stopped the loss of private sector jobs in the state. But it has made the state a less desirable place in which to live and work. That appears to be the reality the the no-taxes utopian wingnuts have done a great job of obscuring with their aggressive, wacko rhetoric.” This came on the heels of an observation that since the end of the 1990s, state taxes have been cut siginifcantly. Business tax rates have been reduced 15 percent, and personal rates by 20 percent. Michigan’s state tax burden now is below the national average. This clearly has not prevented the movement of industry out of the state, and has not prevented the loss of jobs resulting from that exodus. Obviously, factors other than taxes are in play here. As taxes have been cut, so has the state payroll – 15% of state government jobs cut in that period. The state general fund budget was reduced by 39% from 2000 to 2006. State government has been downsized – but that fact is well covered up by the wacko utopian no-tax-no-gubmint rhetoric spewed at every opportunity by simpletons whose shouting dominates public discussion of these issues. Furthermore, the cuts in state taxes have trickled down to local governments in the form of revenue reduction for local services. Thus, we have 1,600 fewer law enforcement officers on the street and nearly 2,400 fire fighters standing by to protect our persons and property than we did in 2001. School budgets are strained to the breaking point. Our roads are a mess. It is quite true that a nation or state cannot tax its way to prosperity. Nobody is making that argument. But the Michigan experiment clearly shows that tax cutting and reduction of government size and services isn’t the silver bullet that brings prosperity, either. The fact is, that after more than a decade of tax-cutting, Michigan is a less desireable place in which to live and work than it was once upon a time. You can’t credibly deny that. High paying jobs are fewer and farther between than they ever were, our infrastructure is crumbling, businesses and people are leaving. I stand solidly by my belief that we are beyond the tax-cutting stage in Michigan and have to realistically look at tax increases as being necessary in order to reverse the state’s economic and employment trends and keep our heads above water. We're not talking about prosperity here -- just survival. Once we get stabilized in survival mode, perhaps prosperity will come. Boosting the state income tax rate to 4.6% of taxable income as reported on federal income tax returns is – in my opinion -- the most desirable of the propositions we've seen so far.

wing-nut... let's look at this one very carefully, "If you are going to quote someone, how about keeping it in context and doing it accurately. [okay, we're quoting you word for liberal word.] What actually was said is: “Lowering taxes hasn't stopped the loss of private sector jobs in the state. But it has made the state a less desirable place in which to live and work. [exactly which tax cuts are you referring to? I haven't seen ANY tax cuts on jennie's watch. maybe engler cut some taxes, but i don't remember those either. the SINGLE BUSINESS TAX hasn't been cut, it's only been complicated.] That appears to be the reality the the no-taxes utopian wingnuts have done a great job of obscuring with their aggressive, wacko rhetoric.” [good job of name calling, there mister liberal. let's not obscure the fact that michigan is now, and has been since jennie was elected, in a SINGLE STATE DEPRESSION. no other state has this going on, you blame this single state depression on LOWERING TAXES??? the federal government lowered taxes, and the OTHER 49 STATES are doing just fine, why not us?] This came on the heels of an observation that since the end of the 1990s, state taxes have been cut siginifcantly. Business tax rates have been reduced 15 percent, and personal rates by 20 percent. Michigan’s state tax burden now is below the national average. [you must have not looked at MY tax forms, my taxes are the highest i've ever paid.] This clearly has not prevented the movement of industry out of the state, and has not prevented the loss of jobs resulting from that exodus. Obviously, factors other than taxes are in play here. [that is the FIRST INTELLIGENT STATEMENT YOU HAVE MADE YET, let's see if it continues.] As taxes have been cut, so has the state payroll – 15% of state government jobs cut in that period. The state general fund budget was reduced by 39% from 2000 to 2006. State government has been downsized – but that fact is well covered up by the wacko utopian no-tax-no-gubmint rhetoric spewed at every opportunity by simpletons whose shouting dominates public discussion of these issues. [nope, i didn't think it would. please tell me why the state has not reduced the amount of police officers in rural districts? please tell me why those officers seem to have no trouble INCREASING ENFORCEMENT EFFORT during the wee hours, pulling over anyone who is out and about during the "witching hours". tell me why no OTHER programs have been cut?] Furthermore, the cuts in state taxes have trickled down to local governments in the form of revenue reduction for local services. Thus, we have 1,600 fewer law enforcement officers on the street and nearly 2,400 fire fighters standing by to protect our persons and property than we did in 2001. School budgets are strained to the breaking point. Our roads are a mess. [and our police departments spend their yearly budget in nine months. that's called POOR MANAGEMENT. I have to live on what i make, nothing more. it's time government did the same.] It is quite true that a nation or state cannot tax its way to prosperity. Nobody is making that argument. [you ARE making the arguement that the current tax rate is TOO LOW. WE are making the arguement for FISCAL RESPONSIBILITY BEFORE TAX INCREASES. tax increases sway businesses away from the state, they also sway incoming families from living here. the only road to prosperity is to attract people and businesses by having LOW TAXES, LOW GOVERNMENT INTERFERENCE WITH DAY TO DAY LIFE, AND EASY ACCESS FROM WHERE YOU ARE TO WHERE YOU NEED TO BE.] But the Michigan experiment clearly shows that tax cutting and reduction of government size and services isn’t the silver bullet that brings prosperity, either. [i'm still not sure where all these tax cuts you mention are, i'm still waiting to see them show up on my tax form.] The fact is, that after more than a decade of tax-cutting, Michigan is a less desireable place in which to live and work than it was once upon a time. You can’t credibly deny that. High paying jobs are fewer and farther between than they ever were, our infrastructure is crumbling, businesses and people are leaving. [lets see, engler was governor, the state was prosperous, we had money in the 'rainy day fund'. people had jobs, life was good. now, jennie gets elected, and the state goes to hell in a handbasket. she's been in charge for a lot of those last ten years. and she was secretary of state before that. i'd say A LOT of the blame for how this state is now rests solidly on her shoulders.] I stand solidly by my belief that we are beyond the tax-cutting stage in Michigan and have to realistically look at tax increases as being necessary in order to reverse the state’s economic and employment trends and keep our heads above water. We're not talking about prosperity here -- just survival. [how about we just let the state flounder and sink? jennie is pushing for that to happen anyway.] Once we get stabilized in survival mode, perhaps prosperity will come. [no it won't, and you know it. even the south after KATRINA is doing better than we are. and that's before federal funds kicked in.] Boosting the state income tax rate to 4.6% of taxable income as reported on federal income tax returns is – in my opinion -- the most desirable of the propositions we've seen so far. [how about switching to the FAIR TAX? it would get rid of the department of revenue, saving tax dollars, it would also get rid of the money taxpayers spend on compliance costs.]

indoctrination. how brutal the methods. how vile the tyrant. how evil the motives.

if cutting taxes WASN'T GOOD FOR THE STATE, then WHY DID THEY DO IT? are they intentionally doing BAD THINGS FOR THIS STATE???? do they intend for the state to falter? it must be. they did the unthinkable and CUT TAXES. they brought RACK AND RUIN to this state by CUTTING TAXES. GET A ROPE.