Michigan Votes Forum

"Documentation continues to pile up" A handful of anecdotes is not "piling up." "160 acres at Swamp Lake north of Newberry, damaged by trespassing ORV’s." Goodness, someone left a tire track in the woods! "That CO wrote three tickets" Sounds like justice got done that day. “is that this was destruction of private property.” Until watermelons discover the nest of the endangered Red-Breasted Buttsnapper on that private property. Then it becomes "public property". "sued the three defendants in a civil trial" Justice was done. “operating an ORV in a prohibited area" Prohibited because they were trespassing, or because they desecrated a temple of the green-Nazis? "MCL 374.81133” Does not exist. Impeach the judge and disbar the defense. "work to restore to marsh would cost a minimum of $7,200.” A mudpit does not cost $7200 to "fix." “It caused ruts, crushed grasses and other marsh life" Deer hooves do that too. "and trees.” That's a big ORV. Wish I had one. “that each of the defendants operated ORV’s on plaintiff’s real estate.” A valid complaint. Was the property posted? "He admitted that not all of the damage done was caused by the three defendants" Whoops! "The defendants argued that the damage they individually did was negligible" A tire track is not a holocaust. "It is hard to get any justice in most cases" So why did you post evidence to the contrary? "ORVs, which are alarmingly common" Only to watermelons. "very instrusive, intense use." Your house is worse. "3% of the society that can afford and chooses to own and operate ORVs for fun." Your elitism is showing again. Citation, please. And how many ORVs are operated by the exalted DNR itself? "no excuse for the repeated instances of trespass" Feet do that too. Wanna ban walking on road shoulders too? "trail cutting" DNR, property owners, and loggers do that too. I think you supported loggers somewhere way down about Frog-Fellator Spamblast No. 9834. "environmental damage" Proof? (And please don't say tire tracks or matted grass) "literally a form of vandalism" You mis-spelled "figuratively." And please look up "vandalism" in your Funk and Wagnall's. "social conflict" As in, green-elitists vs. the peasantry. "They are not unusual. They are commonplace." What percentage of landholders has complained this year? "HB 4323 proposes to open up county roads in northern Michigan generally to ORV traffic." So as to reduce the need to trespass through people's private land. "and there is no doubt about it" There is plenty. You're thrashing madly about in it, gasping for breath and clutching for straws in it. "majority of Michigan people" If it was a majority, would you go away? How about a majority of country folks? A majority of our duly-elected representatives? "peace and quiet harmony" Cars, snowmobiles, logging trucks, firearms, boats, jets, chainsaws, leaf-blowers, Harleys, barking dogs, fire sirens... "HB 4323 is bad legislation that should be rejected by the Senate." Our socialist governor will quash it, so don't worry about it. Go away.

And [citation] nowhere to be seen..

"When we have it from knowledgeable sources" And what sunlight-deprived shut-ins those sources must be. They never come out to play... "To argue that "everybody does it so it must be OK" is an outrageous absurdity. Not really. List some of those regs that 90% of riders violate every time they ride, and we'll be the judge of the outrageous absurdity [note to readers: your great-grandkids will be dead before we see this list.] "elite 3% of the population to operate their expensive and destructive machine toys" Who's the real elitist here? "favor an elite" See above

It well illustrates the utter disdain all too many ORV riders have for environmental protection, private property rights, the law and rules and regulations that are supposed to govern their recreation, and other people in general. This disdainful attitude held by ORV riders is exactly why, where ORVs run they bring environmental degradation and problems with trespass, illegal use, litter, vandalism and social conflict. HB 4323 is intended to broaden the range across which ORVs are legally entitled to run -- and bring this pernicious attitude and its associated behaviors -- across northern Michigan. It is a bad bill that should be rejected by the Michigan Senate.

orv rider been arrested? or just those three? maybe you confuse THREE riders with the THREE PERCENT of the people of michigan who own orv's. our governor has seven orv's that are ridden by her security detail at the mansion. what about them? d.n.r. has hundreds of them, used to catch poachers. what about them? state police has hundreds of them, used to catch drug dealers and escaped convicts. what about them?

why did you lie? the law you quote isn't a law. now, if you can't get THAT straight, what makes you think we take ANYTHING you say seriously? i quit taking you seriously back in your 'cut and paste' days. and nothing you have said has given you ANY credibility. a majority of 100% of your representatives have voted against you. not a single one knew (or cared) about your plight or your documentation. and to tell the truth, neither do we. passing this law restores rights taken away by the bunny humpers. it's time ALL the people had rights, not just the animal sodomists.

The disdain for environmental concerns, private property rights and other citizens’ interests expressed in numerous posts here by ORV fans underscore why HB 4323 is bad legislation. The thoroughly documented, irrefutable and well known facts are that where ORVs are used recreationally they bring noise, pollution, torn up ground, damaged fish and wildlife habitat, and problems with illegal use, trespass, litter, vandalism and social conflict. ORVs are high-impact, intrusive toys used by an elite 3% minority of the population that can afford and chooses to own and operate such machines. They displace other forms of recreation and recreationists, and degrade the quality of life for neighbors who seek peace and quiet, and comfortable coexistence with other folks around them. Knowledgeable observers estimate that 90% of ORV riders violate laws, rules and regulations governing their recreation every time they ride. The problem is intractable. Disdainful attitudes expressed here toward the seriousness of the problem help explain why that is so. Wise public policy would seek to minimize – or at least concentrate -- the negative impacts ORVs bring to areas given over to ORV recreation. There is no great shortage of such areas in Michigan today – the state maintains some 3,100 miles of ORV trails and numerous scramble areas. Nonetheless, there is no good reason for objecting to the Michigan DNR’s proposal for development of additional ORV areas, and trail connector routes that will help manage this high-impact recreation in a way that recognizes and protects all public interests. HB 4323 works in direct opposition to wise public policy when it comes to ORV recreation management. It does this by providing for opening a huge network of public roads to use by off-road vehicles. This opens great access to public and private property, and virtually promises increased problems with illegal use, trespass, and the associated damages that come with such things. HB 4323 is bad legislation that should be rejected by the Michigan Senate.

and, of course, [citation *still* needed] Prediction: we will hit 100 on Wednesday.

"The disdain for other citizens’ interests" "Disdainful attitudes expressed here" Thanks for the punishing self-0wnage with that hellblast of thundering hypocrisy. You've done all the work today, so we can keep it short and get back to our Sunday relaxation. "The thoroughly documented, irrefutable" *sigh*...

After riding in the U.P. of MI last fall 2007. Where the counties have ALREADY PASSED their own ORV law. I see many HAPPY LOCALS, Happy business, HAPPY recreationalist. They all approve of this law! ORV's are not leaving the FALSLEY proclaimed, pollution, torn up ground, ect., ect........... Its working and they know it; its PROOF HB4323 is good for Michigan. PASS IT GREAT FOR MICHIGAN

HB 4323 only serves the interests of the elite 3% of the population that can and chooses to afford owning and operating expensive ORV machine toys. Passage of HB 4323 would burden county road commissions with the additional expense of repairing road shoulder, road surfaces and drainage structure damage produced by ORVs. This is not good for those agencies or for the overwhelming majority of people who rely on county roads for their everyday, basic transportation needs. Likewise, passage of HB 4323 would burden local law enforcement agencies with increased complaints regarding ORV-related trespass, illegal use, vandalism and social conflicts. Further, passage of HB 4323 would open access to more and more public land for illegal ORV use, and make it more difficult for Michigan to maintain sustainable forestry certification for its State Forest timber stands. This directly threatens a source of revenue to the State, and threatens a mainstay of the northern Michigan economy and job market. It is well documented and well known that where ORVs run for fun they bring noise, pollution, torn up ground, degraded fish and wildlife habitat, and problems with illegal use, trespass, litter, vandalism and social conflict. Knowledgeable, experienced land managers estimate that 90% of recreational ORV riders violate laws, rules and regulations governing their sport every time they ride. This makes the problems with intrusion, environmental damage, illegal use, trespass and social conflict that run with ORVs intractable. There is no good rationale for spreading them more broadly across northern Michigan. HB 4323 is bad legislation that should be rejected by the Michigan Senate.

"HB 4323 only serves the interests of the elite 3% of the population that can and chooses to afford owning and operating expensive ORV machine toys. [no, passing it serves to restore the rights of way to those who have had it forcefully taken away. the same rights you have no problem granting to snowmobilers, who operate virtually IDENTICAL machines during winter. YOU probably own one yourself.] Passage of HB 4323 would burden county road commissions with the additional expense of repairing road shoulder, road surfaces and drainage structure damage produced by ORVs. [orv's don't damage roadway shoulders, nor do they damage roadway surfaces. both are designed to withstand fully loaded trucks. orv's just don't travel in the ditches like snowmobiles, which DO damage the drainage surfaces by rutting. orv's just don't produce that kind of damage.] This is not good for those agencies or for the overwhelming majority of people who rely on county roads for their everyday, basic transportation needs. [rights are not for the few, or the many, but for all. or weren't you taught that in your michigan indoctrination center? what do you have against those you don't agree with enjoying the same rights you do?] Likewise, passage of HB 4323 would burden local law enforcement agencies with increased complaints regarding ORV-related trespass, illegal use, vandalism and social conflicts. [from what you describe, they wouldn't come out even if you did complain. you said they don't worry about such trivia.] Further, passage of HB 4323 would open access to more and more public land for illegal ORV use, and make it more difficult for Michigan to maintain sustainable forestry certification for its State Forest timber stands. This directly threatens a source of revenue to the State, and threatens a mainstay of the northern Michigan economy and job market. [what about direct tax revenue from the orv riders who are, according to you, rich enough to be able to afford such toys. you don't want tax money from them? how about we take away the right of way from snowmobilers? they are an elite few who REALLY DO damage to our roads and ditches.] It is well documented [by whom?] and well known [by whom? where is this documentation? we haven't seen it from you. produce it.] that where ORVs run for fun they bring noise, pollution, torn up ground, degraded fish and wildlife habitat, and problems with illegal use, trespass, litter, vandalism and social conflict. [no, it isn't well documented, or well known. prove your case.] Knowledgeable, experienced land managers estimate that 90% of recreational ORV riders violate laws, rules and regulations governing their sport every time they ride. [no they don't. please cite where you are getting these lies from. you are making these figures up out of whole cloth.] This makes the problems with intrusion, environmental damage, illegal use, trespass and social conflict that run with ORVs intractable. [i don't know what fantasy world you live in, but here in michigan, such things just don't happen that way. please cite your sources for all these lies.] There is no good rationale for spreading them more broadly across northern Michigan. [there is plenty of rationale for spreading the lies you tell across northern michigan. why do you lie to us? don't you think we KNOW BETTER????]

HB 4323 Is Not Good For Michigan. HB 4323 only serves the interests of the elite 3% of the population that can and chooses to afford owning and operating expensive ORV machine toys. If this legislation is about rights, it is not about giving ORV operators "rights." It is about balancing privilege for the ORV owner-operators against the rights of the vast majority to live their lives in peace and quiet, and in harmony with their surroundings and their neighbors. Passage of HB 4323 would burden county road commissions with the additional expense of repairing road shoulder, road surfaces and drainage structure damage produced by ORVs. This is not good for those agencies or for the overwhelming majority of people who rely on county roads for their everyday, basic transportation needs. Likewise, passage of HB 4323 would burden local law enforcement agencies with increased complaints regarding ORV-related trespass, illegal use, vandalism and social conflicts. Further, passage of HB 4323 would open access to more and more public land for illegal ORV use, and make it more difficult for Michigan to maintain sustainable forestry certification for its State Forest timber stands. This directly threatens a source of revenue to the State, and threatens a mainstay of the northern Michigan economy and job market. It is well documented and well known that where ORVs run for fun they bring noise, pollution, torn up ground, degraded fish and wildlife habitat, and problems with illegal use, trespass, litter, vandalism and social conflict. Knowledgeable, experienced land managers estimate that 90% of recreational ORV riders violate laws, rules and regulations governing their sport every time they ride. This makes the problems with intrusion, environmental damage, illegal use, trespass and social conflict that run with ORVs intractable. There is no good rationale for spreading them more broadly across northern Michigan. HB 4323 is bad legislation that should be rejected by the Michigan Senate.

but without citations, we DON'T BELIEVE IT. NOT ONE WORD... so, save yourself another 'CUT AND PASTE' adventure, and cite your sources for all this drivel.

don't live in peace and harmony with your neighbors. they TRESPASS on your property, and your POLICE DEPARTMENT is powerless to stop them. once again, you have failed to make your case. maybe you should try to burden your police department with your complaints, that's what you pay them for. they have nothing else better to do. dial 9-1-1, make a cop come.

HB 4323 – or more accurately, refusal by the Senate to pass HB 4323 – would not serve to deny ORV operators any of their rights. ORV recreationists still would be permitted to use the roads just like every other citizen is. What refusal to pass HB 4323 would do is maintain the status quo. That status quo is quite beneficial to ORV recreation fans. It includes public maintenance of 3,100 miles of trails designated specifically for ORV use, plus numerous scramble areas where ORVs are allowed to tear up the terrain at will. What HB 4323 does seek to do is secure a special privilege for the elite 3% minority of the population that can afford and chooses to own and operate expensive, intrusive and destructive ORVs for fun. That special privilege would vastly expand the territory across which ORVs are permitted to operate and bring the well documented, well recognized negative impacts that ride along with them. This would be done at the expense of the majority of people who only wish to exercise their true rights to live and recreate in peace and quiet, and in harmony with their neighbors. Any legislation that confers special privilege on an elite minority at the expense of real rights for everyone is a bad idea. HB 4323 should be rejected by the Michigan Senate.

Against HB 4323. HB 4323 supporter posts -- apparently directing the remark at HB 4323 opponents: “obviously YOU don't live in peace and harmony with your neighbors. they TRESPASS on your property, and your POLICE DEPARTMENT is powerless to stop them. once again, you have failed to make your case.” Well, where the HB 4323 opponents may have failed to make their case for opposition, the supporter certainly succeeded with that post, which clearly acknowledges and confirms that (a) the opponents' right to live in peace and quiet, and in harmony with neighbors has been violated by ORV trespass on his land; and (b) the police are powerless to stop the violations. Of course, every person who has lived or visited where recreational ORVs run is well aware that these problems are common, and the police are simply incapable of stopping them. HB 4323 proposes to broadly expand the area across which ORVs can run and bring with them problems with trespass that law enforcement agencies simply cannot deal with adequately. This bill proposes to extend special privilege to the elite 3% minority of the population that can afford and opts to own and run expensive, intrusive and destructive mechanical ORV toys. It does so at the expense of the rights of ordinary folks to live and play in peace and harmony with their surroundings and neighbors. It is bad legislation that should be rejected by the Michigan Senate.

is that you lied. nothing more. no peace, no harmony, only lies.

for us when you refused to call the police on the 'so called' trespassers. if they were REAL trespassers, you would have had a police response, and an end to your problems. i believe that you made this up so you can have a good reason to oppose this legislation. now, you can't provide us with any citations or sources for your tirades, so they must be made up. you cannot provide us with a police response, so there was no trespass. all you can provide us with is a 'cut and paste' tirade that has no basis in actual facts or circumstances. in other words, you lie.

The fact is that any landowner who suffers trespass by ORV riders has had violated his right to live and enjoy his property in quiet peace and in harmony with his surroundings and neighbors. Police intervention is rarely successful in either apprehending the trespassers or preventing further trespass incidents. The intractability of this problem is underscored by the fact that experienced public land managers estimate 90% of recreational ORV riders violate a laws, rules or regulations that govern their sport every time they ride. HB 4323 proposes to increase the accessibility of private property and its susceptibility of trespass to ORVs in northern Michigan by providing ORV operators the privilege of riding on county roads. It virtually promises to increase the incidence of trespass violations. Any legislation that proposes to grant special privilege to an elite minority (the 3% of people who can afford and choose to own and operate these expensive mechanized toys) while jeopardizing the fundamental rights of anyone is bad legislation. HB 4323 does exactly that. It is a bad bill that should be rejected by the Michigan Senate.

HB4323 is a good bill for the law abiding ORV rider. It’s a proven fact that the majority of counties in the U.P. and some northern counties have ALREADY PASSED their own ordinance allowing the same basic rights HB4323 will provide. It’s also a proven fact that not one of these counties has rescinded their ordinance. 1. FACT; MANY Counties in the U.P. already have an ordinance 2. NOT one of these counties have rescinded their ordinance 3. HEAR SAY IS JUST THAT, GO TO THE U.P. FIND THE FACTS 4. IT’S WORKING, IT’S WORKING, IT’S WORKING PASS HB4323

1. has never actually had a trespasser on his property, and 2. lied about having a trespasser on his property, and 3. disparaged the police in his area for NOT DOING ANYTHING ABOUT THE TRESPASSER HE NEVER HAD. this guy who constantly complains about this bill is a total MORON.

WOW! Grumpy you’re still posting. It's been what 200 post since the last time I visited this site. Yet you’re still posting, writing the same OLD lies, now with a new twist, it's 90% of ORV operators are law breakers. Boy grumpy, I sure hope you use your blinker every time you turn. PUT the toilet seat down every time you’re done. Brush your teeth every time you tell a LIE! It's good to know GRUMPY we have you here to save the world. GET A life GRUMPY

How can you say any of that? The guy you are writing about is anonymous. Are you The Great Karnak?

Are incredibly difficult to get corrected and off the books once they are passed. Examples are legion.

I just call you grumpy because you remind me of the neighbor nobody really talks to. Because Your aurora is very negative. Cheer up, Passing HB4323 will be good for our fellow Michiganders. They need our help, let’s not turn our back on them. You might even feel good about helping somebody.

To post the truth about ORVs? The truth about these expensive machine toys is that they are a nuisance to just about everybody but members of the elite 3% of the population who can afford and who opt to own and run them. Where ORVs run they are a nuisance to public land and infrastructure managers, to private landowners, and to law enforcement agencies. Why? Because where ORVs run for fun they bring noise, pollution, torn up ground, degraded fish and wildlife habitat, and problems with illegal use, trespass, litter, vandalism and social conflict. It is no wonder when you consider this: Knowledgeable public land managers who deal with ORV issues estimate that 90% of ORV riders violate laws, rules or regulations governing their activity every time they go out for a run. Now, someone who evidently is an ORV rider has posted scoffingly about that, attempting justification with the “everybody does it so it must be OK” excuse. That attitude among ORV riders is exactly why the problem is so widespread and persistent. Rather than attempting to excuse illegal behavior, responsible ORV users should be actively and publicly condemning it. All of this tells us exactly why HB 4323 is bad legislation. HB 4323 proposes to allow off road vehicles to run on county roads in northern Michigan. That means ORVs will have hugely expanded access to and for illegal entry on abutting private and public land. Given the well documented history of ORV problems created by illegal entry and use, it is irrational to expand opportunity for that kind of behavior. HB 4323 is a bad legislation that should be rejected by the Michigan Senate.

but i can READ. he's a moron, alright.

you say "degraded fish and wildlife habitat" Do you have any proof of an ORV running over a fish or his home??? You say "90% of ORV riders violate laws" The same can be said for anyone that has ever driven a car, maybe you want to ban them too??? Or maybe the real problem is that there are way too many laws because of usefull idiots like you. You say this will cause "social conflict" I say that if you weren't such a rabid, tree hugging, bunny loving, earth worshiping pagan, control freak socialist that there would be none of your so called social conflict. I just love the way you leftists like to compromise...just do what I tell you and we'll get along fine. Sorry princess, it still ain't all about you. Get a life, find some friends that do something other than sit around watching algore propaganda films and singing kumbaya.

The only time anybody likes her is when she leaves town and heads off for her code pinko marches. Then the neighbors can tolerate her. That is, until she comes home.

afraid that some of those ORV riders might even carry guns. Ooooooooooo

$100 bucks for an ORV pass they will pass this law tomorrow. Just like the no helmet guys. All they want is your money so lets use this to the best of our ability.

Nice to know I am one of the elite few. Really I work 65 hrs a week and a few times a year on the weekends my family and I like to spend time together in Michigan because it is beautiful here and we love to take trips on our ATV's. What HB4323 does is encourage us to do so here in Michigan rather than travel with our hard earned money to places like Kentucy or Wisconsin or even Canada where we are allowed and welcome to rent a cabin, a motel room, or camp and ride to the trails down the side of a road respecting traffic and everyone else around us. HB4323 would allow us to spend our vacation money here in Michigan in for example Gladwin County where we might be able lodge and then ride our ATV to the trails, to get fuel , to get food (spend $$) similar to what snowmobilers often can do in the winter. HB4323 will also encourage out of state travelers to come to Michigan with their ORV's and their dollars! It does sadden and anger me that there are bad apples out there that abuse the privilage of riding orv's, I am sure it's not the only aspect of their lives that they are abusive with. These people honestly don't care if HB4323 passes or not they will continue to act badly reguardless. Not passing HB4323 only stops the law abiding folks from visiting all the wonderful places here in Michigan with their tourist dollars but instead going elsewhere.

I work 65 hrs a week and a few times a year on the weekends my family and I like to spend time together in Michigan because it is beautiful here and we love to take trips on our ATV's. What HB4323 does is encourage us to do so here in Michigan rather than travel with our hard earned money to places like Kentucy or Wisconsin or even Canada where we are allowed and welcome to rent a cabin, a motel room, or camp and ride to the trails down the side of a road respecting traffic and everyone else around us. HB4323 would allow us to spend our vacation money here in Michigan in for example Gladwin County where we might be able lodge and then ride our ATV to the trails, to get fuel , to get food (spend $$) similar to what snowmobilers often can do in the winter. HB4323 will also encourage out of state travelers to come to Michigan with their ORV's and their dollars! It does sadden and anger me that there are bad apples out there that abuse the privilage of riding orv's, I am sure it's not the only aspect of their lives that they are abusive with. These people honestly don't care if HB4323 passes or not they will continue to act badly reguardless. Not passing HB4323 only stops the law abiding folks from visiting all the wonderful places here in Michigan with their tourist dollars but instead going elsewhere.

HB 4323 proposes to allow off road vehicles to run on county roads in northern Michigan. That means both public and private land abutting those roads will have vastly increased exposure to the well documented and well known illegal use and trespass problems associated with recreational ORV use. To whose benefit does this bill work? The sole beneficiaries of the proposed special privilege are recreational ORV operators – an elite 3% of the population with the wealth and will to own and run expensive, intrusive and (too often) destructive mechanical toys for their fun. The rights and interests of property owners and other recreationists and tourists – the huge majority of the Michigan population that either cannot afford or chooses to not own and run such machines – are totally ignored by HB 4323. Knowledgeable resource managers report that an estimated 90% of recreational ORV operators violate laws, rules, or regulations governing their activity every time they ride. This is a stunning and troubling statistic. Equally stunning and troubling has been the response to it in this forum – the repeated attempts to dismiss it as inconsequential. It is anything but. It lies at the core of the challenge in effectively managing recreational ORV use. Persistent refusal by ORV riders to acknowledge that widespread law and rule violation exists as a real problem means that the chance for improvement is virtually nil. This is not just an education issue. It is an issue of mature self-awareness, self control and self regulation of the sort that has been practiced by enlightened traditional outdoors people – hunters, fishermen and trekkers – for the past century. The laws and rules and regulations governing recreational ORV use are not complicated or esoteric. They are sensible rules put in place to minimize environmental degradation by inherently destructive machines, to minimize the impact of inherently intrusive machines on others’ enjoyment of the out-of-doors, to protect private property rights, and to protect public safety. Whether violations are unintentional or willful makes no difference. Every violation adds to the negative impact recreational ORV use has on the land and waters of the area, and on other people. It also has a negative impact on the ORV community. Until the recreational ORV community demonstrates it can effectively self-police, the only reasonable management policy is to concentrate rather than disperse the activity. HB 4323 works directly against such practical and sane policy. If HB 4323 becomes law, ORVs and their riders will be provided hugely expanded opportunity for illegal entry on abutting private and public land in northern Michigan. Given the well documented history of damage and problems created by illegal ORV entry and use, it is irrational to expand opportunity for that kind of behavior. On that score, alone, HB 4323 is bad legislation that should be rejected by the Michigan Senate. As for the supposed economic benefits that HB 4323 would bring to northern Michigan? Don’t kid yourself about that one. They are mythical. Passage of HB 4323 would not bring either prosperity or wealth to the area. The best estimates of ORV contributions to the Michigan economy say the machines and their owners support just 822 jobs in the whole state. That is fewer than 10 jobs in each county. And they aren’t jobs to dream on, either, producing an average of less than $20 thousand per year in personal income. That, by the way, is just 40% of the annual personal income of the average ORV owner. Further, we have seen that ORV damage to State Forest tracts has been so extensive that it has threatened the sustainable forestry practices certification of timber from those holdings. That means loss of market for timber harvested from State Forests which produces significant revenue for the state – revenue that helps cover the cost of maintaining 3,100 miles of legal ORV trails. It also threatens the well-being of a viable private sector industry – and the jobs that industry provides – as a true mainstay of the northern Michigan economy. Interestingly, the latest Michigan ORV management plan (2008) calls for development, by the DNR, of designated off-road connector trails for ORVs. These proposed trails would connect existing ORV trails and provide riders ORV-mounted access to the services they clamor to reach via county roads. It is the right solution to answering ORV rider demands for these things. The DNR plan also presents a prime opportunity for responsible ORV riders to partner with the State and create real solutions to mitigate the environmental and social problems that experience tells us run with the ORVs. The DNR plan takes the long view and protects the interests of all parties and stakeholders, ORV recreationists and the general public, alike. HB 4323 is short-sighted legislation that serves only the interests of that small 3% minority of the population that rides ORVs. It is a bad bill that should be rejected by the Michigan Senate.

I am disappointed. I expected to reach 100 by today, but we'll have to limp along on a mere 94 repetitions of the tired (and ridiculously unsubstantiated) bellowing about "noise, pollution and torn-up ground." Oh well. It's heartening at least to see that *some* things never change... [citation needed].

Please post your hobbies and pastimes, Grumpy. Let's find out what kind of glass house you live in.

I can assure you that there is a disappointing amount of noise one must bear during snow mobile season, while living nearby the Montague/Hart rail trail.

Do you get paid by the word?

friends. Just spends the day trying to control every body else.