Michigan Votes Forum

same negative effects we get from snowmobiles, but they have right of way on our highways, and orv's don't. please explain this discrimination.

Bill Gilbert--Mich ORV Safety Assoc--DIRECTOR Your so called ''facts'' are nothing more but misleading BS from someone who ''assumes'' that negative issues will follow when HB 4323 passes the Senate. Want FACTS Pal? Why dont you bring your big mouth to the 19 differant counties that allready allow ORV use in their Counties [for YEARS now] and ASK them about all the negative impacts that YOU speak of. Ask the Merchants, Fueling stations, Grocery stores, Motels, Hotels, ORV repair facilities, ORV parts suppliers, Party stores,and while your at it,stop in and ask the local Police Departments what a negative impact that the ORVs have been for their Counties. You sir, are nothing more than a tree hugging big mouth with no perception of what impact a Bill of this nature will bring to the hard hit areas of Northern Michigan's economy. Sit back--''relax at little now'' because once this HB 4323 passes the Senate [and it will] With all the negative BS you've been spreading about this Bill, you'll probably need help moving to another State.

With about 19 area's in Michigan allready allowing ORV use in their Township's and not one of them ever recinding this use, I'd have to say that the record of POSTIVE ORV use speaks for itself. If Mr Anno is worried about all the pollution ect, that might occur if HB 4323 passes, than maybe he just ought to do like Bill G. said and move to another State. With all the smoke Mr Anno has been blowing about the negative impacts of ORV use, he better check with his Doctor to make sure he does'nt have lung cancer. PASS HB 4323

This is bad legislation. Here are documented facts about ORVs. Where they are allowed to run they bring noise, pollution, torn up ground, environmental degradation, and problems with illegal use, trespass, litter, vandalism, and social conflict. Telling opponents of this bad legislation to move out of state – as several posters supporting HB 4323 have done here – reveals the “we don’t care about anybody else” attitude that runs with ORVs, and brings their negative impacts where they go. Here’s another documented fact about ORVs. Only about 3% of Michigan’s population can or wishes to afford the cost of owning and operating ORVs. The overwhelming majority of people –97% of the population -- either cannot afford or choose to not bear the high cost of ORV ownership and operation. ORVs are expensive, destructive and intrusive toys for an tiny, elitist minority. Here’s yet another documented fact about ORVs. Damage caused by ORVs have jeopardized the viability of an industry that is a major employer and mainstay of the economy in northern Michigan. They also displace other forms of recreation in places where they run. The notion that they are necessarily a boon to local economies where they run is an illusion. Here’s another fact. Some posters here have recently claimed that 19 counties in Michigan allow ORVs – vehicles designed specifically to operate off the road -- to run their roads, as if that meant allowing ORVs to run the road was the right and good thing to do. That means 64 counties in Michigan do not allow off-road vehicles to run on their roads. Clearly, a more that 3:1 majority of Michigan counties have decided letting ORVs run the roads is not the right and good thing to do. Of course, those 64 counties – the overwhelming majority -- have it right. They understand that where ORVs run they bring noise, pollution, torn up ground, environmental degradation, fish and wildlife habitat destruction, and problems with illegal use, trespass, litter, vandalism and social conflict. HB 4323 proposes to greatly broaden the range across which members of an elite 3% minority are permitted to run their intrusive, destructive and disruptive toys, to the detriment of the interests of the 97% majority of Michigan residents. This is a bad bill that should be rejected by the Senate.

Notice how our "annonymous person" keeps posting his same rhetoric several times on the same dates. He/she wants it to make it seem like there are a whole bunch of people that are thinking like he/she does. Pass this Bill, Michigan. We....RESPONSIBLE...folks from down here in Ohio are looking forward to bringing our families BACK to Michigan to enjoy your company and fine state. Rick Unverferth AMA MEMBER Kalida, Ohio

Are more than welcome to come to Michigan, any old time. Please leave your ORVs at home, though, or do ride them within the limits of Michigan law, and with due respect for the vast majority of folks who do not share your joy in running noisy, destructive and intrusive machines for fun. There are plenty of areas in Michigan already dedicated to your high-impact kind of recreation. We simply do not need to spread those impacts over a greater range by passage of this ill-advised legislation. Those impacts, by the way, are well documented and well nown. Where ORVs run they bring noise, pollution, torn up ground, wildlife and fish habitat destruction, as well as problems with illegal use, trespass, litter, vandalism and social conflict. The negative impacts of ORV operation far outweigh any supposed (and largely mythical) "benefits" expanding the range of ORV operation may (but probabl won't) bring to Michigan. This is bad legislation that should be rejected by the Michigan Senate, despite what the Ohioans (who don't live and vote here) might have to say.

I ride with anywhere from 8-10 riders all the time in Michigan. Have been doing it for 20 years now. EVERY ONE of us RESPECT the enviro and we also respect the land we play on.We put on about 2500 miles and yr and I'd say that about 98% of the riders we run into while playing in the trails, are also safe/responsable users. One thing we just cannot figure out is WHY a Bill like HB 4323 could sit as long as it did in the Senate after passing the House by a 107-0 vote in favor of it? Do our lawmakers NOT understand that they WORK FOR US? They should not be sitting on a Bill like this that would bring a HUGE amount of tourism dollars to a State with one of the WORST economys on record. This Bill is a NO-BRAINER and should be PASSED immediately. And to the air-head who keeps posting the same negative garbage about HB 4323 ALL THE TIME----Do us all a favor and MOVE out of Michigan if you dont like this Bill.You are OBVIOUSLY in the MINORITY and nobody is hearing you anyways. Brian Bosworth Temperance Mi

Let’s hope our Lawmakers do understand that they work for us. Fact is, only 3% of the population – the elite 3% that can and chooses to afford what it costs to operate an expensive ORV toy – is pressing for passage of HB 4323 to serve their convenience. It may be true that the majority of recreational ORV enthusiasts are law-abiding riders. But that doesn’t change the facts that their machines produce noise and pollution, and have tremendous impact on the soils and vegetation where they run. Unfortunately, those heavy impacts also are produced by machines operated by the non-law-abiding riders. It is well documented and well recognized that where ORVs go they do bring noise, pollution, torn up ground, degraded wildlife and fish habitat, and problems with illegal use, trespass, litter, vandalism and social conflict. The economic “contribution” ORV riding makes to areas where it is permitted is way overblown, if not outright mythical. It is a fact that ORV damage to state forest land has jeopardized a viable industry that is very important to the economy and job market in northern Michigan. Given all these facts, any bill to expand the range across which ORVs are permitted to roam, the way HB 4323 does, is ill-advised at best and can fairly be characterized as outright irresponsible. The Michigan Senate should correct the error made by the House of Representatives and reject HB 4323.

our disgruntled poster wrote... "Let’s hope our Lawmakers do understand that they work for us. [yes, they do, they understand that they work for ALL of us, not just an 'elite few' who oppose this bill.] Fact is, only 3% of the population – the elite 3% that can and chooses to afford what it costs to operate an expensive ORV toy – is pressing for passage of HB 4323 to serve their convenience. [no, the population that operates ORV'S is simply 'pressing' for the passage of this bill to make ORV'S have an equal legal footing with snowmobiles. ORV riders simply want access to the roads they pay for with their taxes.] It may be true that the majority of recreational ORV enthusiasts are law-abiding riders. [not MAY BE, it IS. but we're glad you are seeing things our way.] But that doesn’t change the facts that their machines produce noise and pollution, and have tremendous impact on the soils and vegetation where they run. [so do snowmobiles, but THEY have access to the roads, and ORV'S don't. why is that?] Unfortunately, those heavy impacts also are produced by machines operated by the non-law-abiding riders. [so, what is your complaint with the LAW ABIDING ORV RIDERS SEEKING TO GET ACCESS TO WHAT LAW ABIDING SNOWMOBILE RIDERS HAVE?] It is well documented and well recognized that where ORVs go they do bring noise, pollution, torn up ground, degraded wildlife and fish habitat, and problems with illegal use, trespass, litter, vandalism and social conflict. [we are all still waiting for your documentation to that effect. you haven't produced any. let's see it, if it actually exists. where can one look that information up?] The economic “contribution” ORV riding makes to areas where it is permitted is way overblown, if not outright mythical. [you mean like YOUR complaints of litter, vandalism, and sodomy wherever ORV'S travel?] It is a fact that ORV damage to state forest land has jeopardized a viable industry that is very important to the economy and job market in northern Michigan. [bull. logging companies use ORV'S to scout forests and so do D.N.R. officers. are you saying that THEY tear up ground and trespass too?] Given all these facts, any bill to expand the range across which ORVs are permitted to roam, the way HB 4323 does, is ill-advised at best and can fairly be characterized as outright irresponsible. [no, what is irresponsible is to grant road access to SNOWMOBILES and not ORV'S.] The Michigan Senate should correct the error made by the House of Representatives and reject HB 4323. [the legislators voted unanimously to pass this bill. that even makes it VETO PROOF. so much for your dreams of this failing any time soon.]

You say "have tremendous impact on the soils and vegetation" What the heck kind of "vegetation' grows on the shoulder of the road that you are so worried about? "degraded wildlife and fish habitat' Show me one case of an ATV running on the shoulder of a road that hurt "wildlife and fish habitat'" And this last one from you says it all..."that can and chooses to afford what it costs to operate an expensive ORV toy" From where I sit it looks like you are just a tree hugging snob who hates it whne someone is having fun. Go sit in front of your fake fireplace and sing kumbaya with you other socialist control freak friend. It ain't all about you princess.

This bill should give ALL counties the right to determine road shoulder use. But it's a step in the right direction in decentralizing power. I would think an 'environmentalist' would support shoulder use. Every time an ORV is on the shoulder of the road means they are not in the woods - silly. ORVs are a great way for families to spend positive time with one another.

I now live in Schoolcraft co where it is legal to ride ORV on county roads, including the road I live on. I have 10 times more noise and grief from logging trucks then ORV riders. All orv's hold speed down and all have factory exhaust which causes no noise problem. And if you what to see environmental damage check out the areas that are logged, what a rutted up bombed out area eye sore. I have no problem with the orv riders from any aspect. roger

Why is it that if an ATV creates enviromental damage it's a bad thing? So what if a mud hole gets rutted up,IT'S STILL A MUDHOLE!HB 4323 would put ATV's on roads and maybe less ATV's in the woods.If County roads get shut down then you will really see lots more illegal activity.Let's face it,if the roads get shut down,people are still going to ride.

This bill HB4323 is the right

This bill HB4323 ' is the right thing to do' in managing ORV activity, to offer greater emphasis on safty,to give further protection to our enviroment,offer convenenience to the user, increased recrcational opportunity.It would also create revenue in the sales and taxes of new machines, parts,accessories,foo,lodging and travel. This billwould greatly enhance the ability of all counties to welcome the ORVer without thr fear of being ticketed for riding on the shoulder of the road.

give the ORV rider BACK THE RIGHTS that michiganders have happily stripped from him.

HB 4323 is exactly the wrong thing to do in managing the adverse impacts that inevitably occur with recreational use of ORVs. Those well documented and well known impacts include noise, pollution, torn up ground, fish and wildlife habitat destruction, and problems with illegal use, trespass, litter, vandalism, and social conflict. ORVs degrade the areas in which they run. HB 4323 proposes to vastly expand the range across ORVs would be permitted to operate in northern Michigan. This would spread and increase, rather than concentrate adverse impacts, making the entire problem more difficult and more costly to manage. Recreational ORVs do not bring prosperity and wealth to areas where they are allowed to roam at will, as HB 4323 proposes to permit. They degrade the environment and ambience, drive away other less destructive activities that contribute to the local economies and strain law enforcement resources. HB 4323 proposes to deliver all these documented adverse impacts on northern Michigan for the sole benefit of a tiny, elite 3% minority that can afford to own and operate ORVs and chooses to do so. This is done at the cost of benefit loss to the overwhelming 97% majority of ordinary people who either cannot afford ORVs or prefer less intrusive and destructive lifestyles and forms of recreation. HB 4323 is bad legislation that should be rejected by the Senate.

documented, why haven't you provided those documents here? at least a source so we can look them up for ourselves. or is your 'well documented' only in your mind?

It is well documented, well known and irrefutable that where ORVs run for fun they bring noise, pollution, torn up ground, and problems with illegal use, trespass, litter, vandalism and social conflict. ORV fans have access to 3,100 miles of trail and several scramble areas on public land in the state. Those trails and areas are heavily impacted by the ORVs, and that is where they belong. Off-road vehicles do not belong on county roads, to spread their negative impacts far and wide across the land. HB 4323 proposes to favor the elite 3% of people who can afford to own and operate ORVs for their fun, and choose to do so. It totally ignores the interests of the remaining 97% of people who prefer quieter, less destructive forms of play. This bill should be rejected by the Senate.

"It is well documented.." [citation *still* needed] "ORV fans have access to 3,100 miles of trail.." See 65535 previous rebuttals. "HB 4323 proposes to favor the elite 3%.." Deathblow already dealt below. Look mouthbreather, your spam does not increase in validity with posting frequency. You could try changing it up now and then, maybe tossing in a little levity, to spice up your otherwise dreary cutting and pasting and drooling.

And making false claims about rebuttals does not change the documented and well known facts about recreational ORVs. Where ORVs run they bring noise, pollution, torn up ground, and problems with illegal use, trespass, litter, vandaliskm and social conflict. The elite 3% of people who can afford to and do own and operate ORVs have 3,100 of public trails and numerous scramble areas to play on and in in Michigan today. They do not need our county roads, too. In fact, allowing them to run on county roads only will spread their negative impacts over more territory, to the detriment of quieter, non-destructive recreational opportunities that might be enjoyed by the 97% of ordinary folks. HB 4323 is a bad bill that should be rejected by the Senate.

".. does not change the documented and well known.." [citation needed] Dear meatball: you've been thoroughly ground to hamburger beneath the heavy iron wheels of the clue train. The ad hom is just the ketchup.

Is the number of times our neurologically-negligent bedwetting frog-and-fern-fellator (mustard and onion for ya!) has posted the phrase "noise, pollution, and torn-up ground" in this forum. I counted em (you're welcome)-- now, *there's* an hour of my life I'll never get back. Thankless job. And I think I now have eyeball cancer. I'll leave some other poor schlub to count up the "vandalism and social conflict." Yet still... [citation needed]

Counting up the number of times opponents have posted the truth about recreational ORV impacts does not refute those truths. Here,. for your edification, are those well documented, well known truths again. Where ORVs run for fun they bring noise, pollution, torn up ground, fish and wildlife habitat destruction, and problems with illegal use, trespass, litter, vandalism and social conflict. It is a myth that ORVs bring prosperity and wealth to the places they are used for play. What they actually do is displace other forms of quieter, less intrusive and less destructive recreation that also bring money into those areas. Furthermore, they have been identified as a real threat to a viable industry that is a major employer and economic mainstay in rural northern Michigan. HB 4323 is written to provide special privilege for an elite 3% of the population can afford and chooses to own and operate expensive ORVs as toys. It neglects the interests of the ordinary 97% of people who do not enjoy the negative impacts of intrusive ORV recreation. This is bad legislation that should be rejected by the Senate.

and [citation still needed]

And well documented, and well recognized. And always worth posting: Where ORVs run for fun they bring noise, pollution, torn up ground, damaged fish and wildlife habitat, and problems with illegal use, trespass on private property, litter, vandalism, and social conflict. ORV recreation is intrusive and destructive. ORV recreation -- even though enjoyed by only an elite 3% of the population that can and chooses to afford owning and operating expensive machines as toys -- displaces other recreational uses of the land. HB 4323 proposes to vastly expand the range over which intrusive, destructive, conflict-creating ORVs are allowed to run. It is a bad bill that should be rejected by the Senate.

You keep spouting the same tree hugging nonsense and getting shot down. Once again I ask, please tell me how ATV's hurt "fish habitat"? Admitting you have a problem is the first step. You need to go someplace where nobody knows you, open a beer and try to make some friends. Your control freak outlook on life will start to disappear and you too can learn how to have fun. Or you can spend your life talking to squirrels and singing kumbaya. Oh Well, at least the squirrels like you. Maybe you could go try to talk to the bears, that would solve alot of problems.

on the shoulder is "alarming" to you, you have a real problem.

SHOW US THE DOCUMENTATION... or admit that you made it up.

I dont see what the big deal is with HB4323, passing this bill would let each county have the option to open or close it,s own county roads. If your county dont feel it,s right for there county, then have your county commissioners vote to shut them down. By passing this bill it would give each county that option. The key to making this bill work is education and law enfocement, and we have both so lets use them. Lets keep on track here this bill is about opening and closing of county roads.

The facts about recreational ORV use are well documented, well recognized, and easy to unearth. They are: Where recreational ORVs run they bring with them noise, pollution, torn up ground, damaged fish and wildlife habitat, and problems with illegal use, trespass, litter, vandalism and social conflict. HB 4323 proposes to spread these negative impacts far and wide across northern Michigan, rather than work toward confining them to the already sacrificed extablished scramble areas and 3,100 miles of state-maintained ORV trails. This would be done solely for the convenience of an elite 3% of the population that can afford to own and operate these expensive machine toys and chooses to do so. It ignores the interests of the overwhelming majority of people whose lives and recreation are built around less intrusive, less destructive activities. This is very bad legislation that should be rejected by the Senate.

your 'documentation' doesn't show what you are saying. it doesn't show anything. you made it up. simple as that. what i have found is extraordinarily POSITIVE views about orv's and their riders. now, i'd like to know what slanted website you have been reading so i can get a glimpse at all the sources of the vitriole you are spouting. obviously you are being VERY SELFISH in your views. as you wish to continue to deprive law abiding citizens the right to use the roads their taxes pay for. yet you GLADLY offer those rights to snowmobilers. you must own a couple of snowmobiles. how selfish of you.

And still... [citation needed]

"Counting up the number of times one bedwetter has posted spam about recreational ORV impacts does not refute those fairy-tales." Of course not. That job has been done to death already. This is just play time. Make the title of your next cut-n-paste spam-bomb something about how twisting your words does not diminish the NP&TUG that ORVs surely bring to the cramped confines of your bird brain. Can we get an Eighty-Seven? All together now: WHAT DO WE [NEED]? [CITATION!] [CITATION!] [CITATION!] WHEN DO WE [NEED] IT? NOW! NOW! NOW!

Documentation continues to pile up that where ORVs run for fun they bring noise, pollution, environmental destruction, problems with illegal use, trespass, vandalism and social conflict. For example: -------------- During the Labor Day weekend in 2006, landowner Fred McCrumb had a portion of his 160 acres at Swamp Lake north of Newberry, damaged by trespassing ORV’s. McCrumb’s wife called 911 and the Michigan DNR sent a Conservation Officer out. That CO wrote three tickets as reported in the September 20, 2006 issue of the Newberry News. However, the story does not end there. “The problem with that,” stated McCrumb at the September 2006 meeting of the Luce County Commissioner, “is that this was destruction of private property.” McCrumb sued the three defendants in a civil trial claiming that the defendants caused damage to his property by operating off road vehicles upon his real estate. The bench trial took part last January 31, 2008 in the 92nd District Court before Judge Beth Gibson. One of the defendants, Jaren Kilpartick, did not appear and did not testify. The other two defendants, Steven Adelaine and Leon Kilpatrick did appear and testified that they only drove into the marsh to assist someone else who was struck in the bog. Both also stated that they knew some of the other riders in the marsh. “Each defendant pleaded guilty to operating an ORV in a prohibited area contrary to MCL 374.81133,” wrote Judge Gibson. “All parties stipulated to the entry of Plaintiff’s Exhibit #1, a report for Craig Outwater. That exhibit indicates that work to restore to marsh would cost a minimum of $7,200.” McCrumb asked for damages three times that amount plus the cost of Outwater’s services of $242. There were three counts brought before the Defendants. Judge Gibson ruled that the damage to the land was indeed caused by ORV tires. “It caused ruts, crushed grasses and other marsh life and trees.” The second count had to deal with whether the defendants operated ORV’s on McCrumb’s property. “The Court does find from testimony of all parties, the answers filed as well as admission through court files,” wrote Gibson, “that each of the defendants operated ORV’s on plaintiff’s real estate.” The last count had to deal with whether the defendants were responsible for all of the damage. McCrumb argued that the defendants were “jointly and severally liable.” He admitted that not all of the damage done was caused by the three defendants nor could the damage that each individual created be equally apportioned. The defendants argued that the damage they individually did was negligible and only done to assist someone else. Gibson ruled in favor of McCrumb as to the first two counts but dismissed the third. Furthermore Gibson awarded damages to McCrumb in the amount of $22,071 which included Outwater’s bill and court costs. ------------------- It is hard to get any justice in most cases of abuse by ORVs, which are alarmingly common, and full justice is almost impossible to obtain. Michigan provides ORV recreationists 3,100 miles of designated trails and numerous scramble areas that are given over to this very instrusive, intense use. That is a big commitment of public resources for the convenience of the just 3% of the society that can afford and chooses to own and operate ORVs for fun. Given the ample resopurces already given over to ORV use, there is simply no excuse for the repeated instances of trespass, illegal trail cutting, and the resultant environmental damage -- literally a form of vandalism -- and social conflict that occur where recreational ORVs run. And yet they do. They are not unusual. They are commonplace. HB 4323 proposes to open up county roads in northern Michigan generally to ORV traffic. What this will do, and there is no doubt about it, is simply make private holdings like the McCrumb property in Luce county more directly accessible to ORVs and susceptible to the kind of illegal behavior by ORV riders that has been documented there. That is not a good thing for the overwhelming majority of Michigan people who do not own and operate ORVs and who wish to live in peace and quiet harmony with their neighbors and surroundings. HB 4323 is bad legislation that should be rejected by the Senate.

down. thousands more to go. keep going. there are thousands of orv riders in this state. you've only managed to find THREE actually condemed of doing what you say. are you basing your entire opinion of orv riders on this ONE case or are their more? what happened to YOUR case? didn't you see what happens when you actually CALL THE POLICE? THEY COME OUT AND ARREST THE TRESPASSERS. wow. the criminal justice system here WORKS. good luck with that.

That where ORVs run for fun they bring noise, pollution, torn up ground, environmental degradation, despoiled fish and wildlife habitat, and problems with illegal use, trespass, litter, vandalism and social conflict. It is estimated by knowledgeable authorities that 90% of ORV riders commit at least one illegal act -- violate at least one law, rule or regulation -- every day they ride. So it is not a small minority of riders who cause the problems. HB 4323 proposes to vastly expand the range across which ORVs are permitted to operate in northern Michigan. That means it proposes to open up vastly more territory to the problems and degradation that ORVs bring with them. It is bad legislation that should be rejected by the Michigan Senate.

"It is estimated by knowledgeable authorities (source?) that 90% of ORV riders commit at least one illegal act -- violate at least one law, rule or regulation -- every day they ride." I'm sure you and I violate at least one law, rule, or regulation, every day we go about our business. Government is quite large and all-encompassing these days.

Bunnyhumper did not disappoint. And still... [citation needed]

When we have it from knowledgeable sources that an estimated 90% of recreational ORV riders violate laws, regulations and/or rules every time they ride, then there is a real problem with lawlessness in that segment of the society. To argue that "everybody does it so it must be OK" is an outrageous absurdity. That such an argument would be made in behalf of ORV law violators tells us something significant -- and very unflattering -- about the attitudes that travel with ORVs. It is little wonder then that the truth about ORVs -- well documented and well known -- is that where ORVs run for fun they bring noise, pollution, torn up ground, environmental destruction, degradation of fish and wildlife habitat. and problems with illegal use, trespass, litter, vandalism and social conflict. Michigan already provides publicly supported places for the elite 3% of the population to operate their expensive and destructive machine toys -- 3,100 miles of trails and numerous scramble areas maintained at public expense. There is no need to expand the range over which ORVs can roam legally at will, to spread the negative impacts that ride right along with them. HB 4323 is a bad piece of legislation that works against the public interest to favor an elite, and demonstrably careless minority of citizens. It should be rejected by the Michigan Senate.