Michigan Votes Forum

Why do you choose to remain anonymous if it is such a great thing. Speak out, do not be afraid. So how will lyou feel when they are riding up and down your road and on the shoulders instead of on regular TRAILS like the UP

I an one of those wkater with lemon types and not another round of Bud types who live in the upper MI and have witnessed first hand how the Wyandotte types and Indiana types or any other area treats the upper part of MI. I live at a great fishing site and ALL the fisherman who pay for a license to fish or hunt in our area are the rudest people when it comes to going home. We have watched the garbage left along side the roads, thrown out the windows, disregard for posted signs, take a dump (yes a dump) outside a nicely maintained restrooms, but hey they are bringing MONEY to our area I am told. That's great because it is needed to clean up after the GREAT tourists' to upper MI.

I would like to know how you lose a legally marked ORV trail. Maybe these are the people who feel it is their right to ride on the roads and shoulders BUT, pay their taxes elsewhere and do not have to be bothered by people riding by their house...oh wait a minute, if this is passed then they will have riders on their roads. Better yet maybe you should ride along on an ambulance and see first hand the injuries sustained from vehicle/ORV accidents on shoulders, roads with those law abiding citizens who believe their kids should have the right to ride also. I have many times a year and we do not have an ORV ordinance, but these riders still felt it was their right to ride on the road.

So does this mean that since it is state owned that I have the right to ride on it whether designated or not. Does this hold true for all things the state owns???

HELLOO!! Do you think the DNR only takes care of hunters. Have you kever read their job description. Try sometime! You can read can't you?

Your throwing stones in glass house you're also remaining anonymous, at least be fair!? Most of the people riding their ORV on "YOUR ROAD"?? Are probably the same people driving by with the car on "YOUR ROAD" and if the ORV's drive with the same respect they give the local people in the U.P. I wouldn’t have a problem with it. Don't be afraid of the TRUTH talk with somebody in the U.P. or is it more convenient to judge a book by the cover???? I think maybe you should rent an ATV up in the U.P., go ride experience it yourself. The colors are turning this time of year.

Hey quit trying to convince these people. I hope heaven isn't full of these old fuddy duddys that would be QUITE a disappointment. Life was meant to live and have fun sometimes people forget when they were younger and taking the family out for a good family activity. They don't wants us in the Lower Peninsula go to the U.P. the counties there already imposed their own laws LETTING ORV’s on the shoulders of the road. Enjoy these folks they are much more open to people having fun. All you people from out of state bring your money up to the U.P. awesome trails, places to eat, get gas and the people want you there. I know it’s a longer drive but it will be worth it.

It's now Sept. 25th. 6 months after the House passed this (in less than a month !!) and referred to The Senate Committee. Does it have to take THIS long ?? Dear Michigan: We have money to spend down here in Ohio. Let us come up and do it. From all reports it sure looks like you could use it.

This is already happening people. To all of the old people on this comment list. Keep this in mind that you have a different mind set than anyone else. I am 20. I just purchased my home..Im married. NONE of my friends still live in michigan. There is nothing here for anyone. To bring alittle more revenue and tourism to this DIEING state would be a god send. The errision(Spelling) I have yet to see. And to the walkers, there are plenty of places that you can walk in the wilderness that a orv cannot drive down. Try walking off the beaten path. To the fudgies, come on up to northern michigan! Mushroom hunt, hunt, fish, enjoy our great state but respect it and keep it nice. Curtis Lakes Of the North, Elmiria Michigan 49730

You wote: >And to the walkers, there are plenty of places that you can walk in the wilderness that a orv cannot drive down.< Maybe this is so in other, more enlightened states. But not in Michigan. ORVs are virtually everywhere here. They are nearly impossible to get away from. >Try walking off the beaten path.< I don’t try it. I do it, and have done so for more than 50 years. Michigan is a Hell-hole for people who want to enjoy quiet pursuits in the out-of-doors. That’s why most of my recreation dollars get spent, unfortunately, outside of Michigan even though I am a 40-year resident of the state.

That post should have read, “Dear Curtis of Elminia, MI.” My apologies. Dear Curtis: You wote: >And to the walkers, there are plenty of places that you can walk in the wilderness that a orv cannot drive down.< Maybe this is so in other, more enlightened states. But not in Michigan. >Try walking off the beaten path.< I don’t try it. I do it, and have done so for more than 50 years. Michigan is a Hell-hole for people who want to enjoy quiet pursuits in the out-of-doors. That’s why most of my recreation dollars get spent, unfortunately, outside of Michigan even though I am a 40-yerar resident of the state.

My Family owns 2 cottages in Lake County, MI and our plans are if this bill isn't passed by Christmas - both are going up for sale and we our moving our recreation dollars elsewhere. Its down right ridiculous that we have to trailer our ORVs to a trailhead that sits less then 1 mile from our cottages, for a nice family ride. Snowmobiles are legal, but ORV is not? Come on Michigan - please wake up before its to late.

Where exactly are you walking. I live in Grand Traverse County and walk the woods while hunting and fishing on a regular basis and in my 20 years in the area have NEVER seen a ORV out in the middle of the woods period. You might hear some engine noise if you are near the trails on the weekends but more often you will hear a chain saw.

When I say in the middle of the woods, I do not mean where a designated trail crosses.

says it all. ORVs are everywhere in Michigan, on designated trails and off them. They make it just about impossible top find a quiet place to walk in the woods. I'd prefer to recreate closer to home, but since my preference is for quiet recreation -- like walking in the woods -- my major recreation dollars, unfortunately, go out of Michigan.

with bicyclists on the roads, you don't have a problem with loud motorcycles on the roads, you don't have a problem with pedestrians on the roads, you don't even have a problem with snowmobiles on the roads, but you DO have a problem with ORV's on the roads. i'm not sure why.

I have been out in the woods nearly every weekend since mid august. I have not seen any ORV's off the trails. Rarely do I see anyone let alone an ORV. The woods are quite peaceful this time of year. Perhaps it is just Grand Traverse County that has this light ORV usage. Maybe you should spend some of your “MAJOR” (lol) recreational dollars walking the woods around here.

It took me a long time to read all of the comments and get to the bottom. My first though is that it seems that everyone could post their opinion with out name calling. For myself it seems that I fall into many of the categories; I'm almost 50, so I guess that I am getting close to the old folks. I like water with a lemon. I live in South Eastern Michigan. I pay my taxes and I always make sure we have current licenses and/or orv stickers. So I guess this means I'm a Michigander. Because of this I feel I can add my thoughs. The first is please don't lump everyone together either as all good or all bad. My son and I ride the ORV trails 6 - 8 times a year. There are times when we have been lost, it just happens. There are times when we have rode "off" of the trail, mostly to get around an obstacle, and we always bring out what we brought it (any good Cub Scout does this). We ride with the Cycle Conservation Club and on our own. When we are with the CCC they pay for fees and use permits, post and remove trail markings and put a huge effort into maintaining the trials and good relationship with the local communities. When we ride by ourselves we like to ride in Ogema County. Why? Because when a 10-11 year old tells you he's tired, it's time to get off of the trial. Otherwise, someone gets hurt. Then we ride on the shoulder. We try to ride at 20 MPH, which can be hard without a speedo, but we try. There is no way that we add any additional strain to the road or road system. Any road that was designed to stand up to truck travel can support a 300 pound bike and rider. In fact most off-road trail riders don't want to ride on the road because it tears up the tires and certainly isn't much fun. The merchants I meet in Rose City and adjoining areas tell me that this is a huge benefit to there business. Other areas when we ask tell me they wish it was the same. There will always be a few that feel that their rights come first and there's not much you can do to change that. But the truth is for everyone to have these rights means we have to extend them to each other. I hope the bill passes, it benefits me of couse, but I think that it benefits many.

Could not have said it better...Nice!

I'm editor of Michigan Interactive. I would like to say one thing. If the hikers and x-country skiers had to buy a trail permit they would most likly raise hell. If they want to keep out the power sports in this state than there would be no one left to fit the bill for thier sport. I say let them pay to use the trail like the rest of us riders that pay for thier sport do. I have hiked the state for years and we have more maintained foot trails than any state in the country. Guess who pays for them, not the hikers! Dave G. Petoskey Michigan.

I road on 1,500 miles of back roads and trails this year. I find hikers on the ORV trails and almost ran over two old people and three dogs skiing down the snowmobile trail last year. I am old also. The said they liked to ski on the snowmobile trail, even through the ski trail was only 100 feet away, because it was smoother. Then they had the never to bitch me out for riding on it. Hikers, bikers and cars and trucks are on the trails all the time. But god be where someone might cross their trail. Logging trucks are tearing up many forest roads, cutting down the trees we pay for. The money goes in their pockets, not back to those that pay to maintain them. My AYV and Snowmobiles are quiter than most of my neibors cars, They do not burn oil or use up much gas like the so called tree hugers driving thier big suv alone down the city streets by themsrlf. ATV's do not do any damgage to roads or shoulders but are the fastest growing revenue for most all the business I deal with here in the north every day. I have a neibor that fought against the snow trail to Cheboygan for years saying the noise would be to much. His own kids are the loadesy ones around. It's OK for his but not anyone else I guess. LEARN TO SHARE PEOPLE. Is that not what you teach you kids? Dave G. Fishweb.com

The ORV rider who complains bitterly about hikers and others being in the woods on “his” trails then shouts at the world: >LEARN TO SHARE PEOPLE. Is that not what you teach you kids?< It actually is good advice. ORV riders should absorb some of it.

Power sport riders have always had to share the trails with cars and trucks. The snowmobile trails are a different matter. Skiing on them is a danger to both and illegal to hike or ski on after Dec. first. Many don't take care about the law but they should care about their safety. I have seen a couple on the snowmobile trail just south of Wolverine spreading salt on the snowmobile trail. I would remind them that they are responsible for any damage to property or people when they miss with the trail. Same goes for those that block off the end of their dive to keep snowmobiles and ATVs for crossing. They do not own that land. It is public right of way owned by the county and the only legal place for us to ride, the far right unplowed section of the road way. That 30 feet from center guys. You can and should be held liable for any damage or injury roping or blocking may cause. I wave and say howdy to hikers on the trail all the time. I do get a lot of middle fingers in response. I don't care who uses any trail myself. But remember to give right a way for your own safety when you see a sled or ATV coming. They do have the right to be there. And to the guy that said he would take his hiking dollars elsewhere. Go ahead, we will not miss your 2 bucks. Fishing, power sports and hunters spend the money most all the money in that order.. Ask any business in northern Michigan who they would like to see come up. Dave G

The ORV fan posts: >Power sport riders have always had to share the trails with cars and trucks< I don’t think that is so, at all. I see numerous miles of designated Michigan ORV-ATV-Motorcycle-Snowmobile trail marked off-limits to ordinary motor vehicles. Actually, what this bill is about is forcing conventional motorists to give up road right-of-way space to ORVs. >I have seen a couple on the snowmobile trail just south of Wolverine spreading salt on the snowmobile trail.< The complaints about people vandalizing snowmobile trails are legitimate. It should not happen, and the vandals should be dealt with to the full extent the law allows. But the truth most certainly is that far more non-motorized trail mileage gets damaged -- vandalized -- by motorsports fans going where they are not supposed to be than the other way around. I see evidence of ATV-ORV-Motorcycle traffic on Michigan’s non-motorized trails all the time. It comes in the form of trail-widening, torn-up treadway, mud-holing, torn up waterbars, and slope erosion accompanied by the signature tire tracks of the vehicles that did the damage. I never see hikers on motorsports trails, even though it may be legal for pedestrians to be there. Of course, as a hiker I avoid walking on motorsports trails like the plague because hiking with mechanized vehicles roaring past in close quarters is simply not any fun for me. >And to the guy that said he would take his hiking dollars elsewhere. Go ahead, we will not miss your 2 bucks.< Jeez, Buster, what happened to that “sharing” attitude you were preaching a while back? Oh, I get it: When you preach “sharing,” what you really mean is, “give me whatever I want and to Hell with whatever anybody else wants.” Very generous of you. And, as it happens, I am the guy who takes his hiking dollars out of Michigan. This past summer alone that amounted to nearly $3,000 dropped on the local economies in hiking areas of New York State and New England. So don’t give us this $2 garbage. I also buy hunting and fishing licenses, and pay taxes in Michigan. Sure, my hiking bucks won’t cure Michigan’s economic woes. But then, I am not the only hiker who lives in Michigan. Hikers eat, drink, buy fuel and do almost all the same economy-boosting things the motorsports folks do. They just don’t make a huge noise and tear up the landscape while doing it, and so are relatively less visible.

I just found this on the web; 10/30/07 LETS get this BILL MOVING again! As of 1/1/07 we have over 346,000 ATV's in Michigan that's a lot of voices that will overtake all the naysayers. INSIDE MICHIGAN HOUSE BILL 4323 Starting with latest to oldest 10/12/07 Below is a press release by the MMRC with some more pressure we might just be moving forward again 10-10 SENATOR VISITOR 10-11-07 Michigan Motorized Recreation Council For Immediate Release Yesterday, 10-10-07, eleven of us Chuck Smith, Bill Gilbert (ATVOC), Thomas Dunn, Greg Bradley & guest, Glenn Jaffas (AMA D-14), Toby Poland, Bob Bauer, Lewis Schuler, (CCC) Doc Paulsen of Ogemaw County and myself, made the rounds to every State Senators office. Thanks to those folks for a job well done! We passed out to every Senator, a packet which included a questionnaire asking if they supported HB 4323, if they were undecided or if they had issues and if so, what were they? We asked for a response by October 29th. Included in the packet, an Overview of HB 4323, a list of the 19 counties with some form of ORV ordinance in place. A list of the fourteen counties where consideration is being given to establishment of a favorable ORV ordinance. In our discussions before heading home, we found some very positive discussions were had. Some in our group receiving an instant response of “support” from the Senators and they would vote “yes” to HB 4323. Very few negative comments were heard. We must bear in mind, there has been little done in the past few months on legislative matters other than budget issues. Some work remains in that area, but we are now nearing the time for other legislative issues to come to the surface, one of those being HB 4323. Where do we go from here? Obviously HB 4323 is very much alive! Have all your contacts send an e-mail to your Senator urging them to aid in any manner possible in moving HB 4323 forward. Start off their letter by stating “I support HB 4323 as presented from the House because............... We do not want this Bill to be cluttered with amendments that could possibly turn it into a junk Bill that we cannot support. “as presented from the House” are key words that should be in every letter/e-mail/phone conversation Of the 14 counties where we have received inquiries Alpena, Clare, Crawford, Gladwin, Grand Traverse, Kalkaska, Keweenaw, Lake, Manistee, Missaukee, Oceana, Newaygo, Roscommon and Wexford, we need some of those to adopt, subject to the passage of HB 4323. Or, send a letter to their Senator advising them of such and to the members of the Senate Committee on Natural Resources and Environmental Affairs. We need letters of support sent into the respective Senators and the members of the Senate Natural Resources and Environmental Affairs committee from the following; County Sheriff ’ County Commissions Township Boards County Road Commissions Chambers of Commerce If your county already has a favorable ORV ordinance, IT IS AT RISK, if HB 4323 fails to pass the Senate. We have already seen a serious effort by MDNR to try and get counties to rescind ORV ordinances. We can expect that effort to intensify if HB 4323 fails in the Senate! Please bear in mind, the Governor has agreed to sign the Bill as passed by the House and presented to the Senate. It is up to each of us to make every possible effort to ensure HB 4323 passes in the Senate! The single most important thing at the moment is contact to the Senators from their constituents. If you have any questions, comments or suggestions, please feel free to write or call. dranney1@charter.net or 989 469-2405. Sincerely; Dick Ranney Coordinator, Michigan Motorized Recreation Council Chair, MDNR ORV Trail Advisory Board Off-Road Legislative Director, AMA D-14 Member, Board of Governors, Cycle Conservation Club of Michigan Board Member, Iosco County Parks & Recreation

Well said Dave, a lot of people that don't pay any fees just take the trails for granted. Maybe more people should visit your site and see what ATV'ing is all about. GOOD JOB! Dan Alto, MI

I think the tonnage law also applies, if you’re walking on an ORV trail you’re asking for problems, use your head. Be smart use the hiking trails that we paid for, that’s why we have them, so we don't have you on the ORV trail!!!!!!!

GOOD! One less grumpy pants in the area.

I have great respect for the concept that tonnage gets the right of way. That's why I do not walk on the ORV trails that I help pay for, and instead walk on non-motorized trails, that I also help pay for and help build as a volunteer. I don't know of any hikers who walk on ORV trails. Trouble is, some members of the ORV crowd can't seem to stay off non-motorized trails. And because of the nature of the beasts they ride, they always leave ample evidence of their passage. Unlike the ORV fans who post here, I have no problem with other peoples' kinds of recreation. Live and let live, I say. But I expect to have some opportunity to recreate without being interfered with, too. I think this bill will encourage trespass, lead to an undesirable mix of traffic on county roads (for all concerned, actually), and may lead to damage of both roadway and shoulders. That is why I oppose it. It is my impression that by and large ORV riders are a reasonably responsible bunch. They stay on their designated trails and don't create problems for other people. But there is a faction of ORV enthusiasts that simply can't behave themselves. Their attitude is exactly the one expressed here toward hikers by several posters: "Go away. Get outta my way. I have entitlements but you don't." People like that give the ORV crowd at large a black eye. They sure don't make me inclined to have much sympathy for any of their pleadings.

Okay I do agree with you, some ORV riders are very disrespectful of others rights, so are people that drive cars, snowmobile, motorcycle’s, bike riders, people sabotaging snowmobile trials, ect. ect. ect.. It’s happening without this bill already, but this bill would put higher penalties on the law breakers and fund the local law enforcement so enforcement would be more of a deterrent, also be more prevalent. As for hiking on the ORV trail, I stated if you’re on the ORV trail HIKING your putting yourself in harm’s way for no reason when there are all types of hiking trails. It's not very smart and it's not fair for the ORV rider, when he/she is riding on an ORV trail. It's the only place they have to ride. Now if you’re hiking on a hiking trail when an ORV comes along, yes they should get this clown off the ORV. My biggest concern is many ATV riders ignore the clowns giving us a bad name. I would like your opinion on what you think about the snowmobile law? There are a lot of similarities in this proposed law.

opinion; Can't we just all get along and find some common ground? Pass the bill with a probation period see what happens, if it's such a big problem as some people predict let the probation period run out and don't renew the law. This great state has bigger issues to worry about.

Did this bill die....or what's going on ?? Michigan: Do you want our money or not ?? Your economy sure could use it. It's approaching a year since the House passed this. Rick (from Ohio)

Dear Senate Natural Resources & Environmental Affairs Committee, Please progress this positive Michigan revenue generating Bill(#4323)as soon as possible. Many of us outdoor recreationist (in this case motorized ORV's) already travel to Michigan's UP to partake in their prorecreation ORV laws, but would prefer to stay in the lower peninsula. This bill proposes a wonderful opportunity for some of Michigan's small towns & businesses to once again prosper and grow. Michigan's future positive results, supported by other areas (in MI) which have already allowed this tpye of ORV use, assure us of our beneficial outcome. Thanks, Jamison Burchfield Hudsonville, MI

Why is this bill limited to only certain counties and not open to all counties in Michigan with regulation the responsibility of local government

Why is it taking so long for this bill to be acted upon. It could be a shot in the arm to the economy for some small towns in northern michigan. I understand the concern for the roads and for safety, but put some teeth in the regulations and inforce them. The majority of riders would respect the law. Those who don't should be ticketed and fined.

There is no hearing scheduled on bill HB 4323 by the chairman of the Natural Resource Committee at this time.

Michigan: Don't you want our Ohio money ?? Your summer tourism dollars would grow by leaps and bounds...isn't tourism one of your top "industries" in the state ?? Sigh....

I want to see your Ohio money come to Michigan. Send in on up! Or bring it in person. But remember our motto: If you seek a pleasant peninsula, look around you. So just leave your noisemaking, pollution-belching, ground ripping ORV toy at home.

To: "sure" No wonder your state is in the shape it's in. Nice attitude.

warning grumpy pants in the area. will trade grumpy pants for Ohio money lol....