Michigan Votes Forum

again. "The troll who continuously rails against the prison system reform proposed in this bill now posts this: “now, what makes our inmates worth two billion dollars a year?” That’s a very good question, and the troll should answer it. [why, mr. liberal, because you can't? why not? because it would show you, once and for all as the true leftist liberal that you are? no wonder you sit silently, refusing to answer questions. by the way. my answer is NOTHING. THERE IS NOTHING THAT MAKES OUR INMATES WORTH TWO BILLION DOLLARS.] He/she/it/they is/are the one(s) objecting to reasonable means for cutting the cost of our Michigan prison system. [releasing inmates is not reasonable.] Instead, what the troll proposes is simplistic nonsense [it's nonsense because it doesn't release inmates.] that is virtually impossible to accomplish [without releasing inmates, in your opinion] and therefore will not cut prison operating costs at all. [why? because prison operating costs are hard wired into the prison budget signed by the governor every year? they have nothing to do with inmate count, do they? no.] In fact, the do-nothing proposals guarantee future increases in prison operating costs. [how do you figure? if you figure at all.] Every responsible and informed analysis of the escalating cost of operating prisons in Michigan [done by whom? a few crack-pot websites? how about the department of justice?] (and elsewhere) points to reduction in the number of inmates held as being the key to reducing prison system operating costs. [no they don't. the department of justice says we should reduce our beurocracy to cut our costs. they say the same thing every year. read it, i dare you. they also say to get rid of the unions, which cost us far more than our inmates do.] This bill is not the whole solution, [this bill is not ANY solution, but a creation of far worse problems after we release inmates.] but it is a step n the right direction for Michigan [no, it's another step in the LEFT direction.] – accomplishing a true reduction in costs [but not the amount the legislature pays.] while conserving the retributive purpose of our penal system [how, by letting inmates go early? that's retribution for you.] and without compromising public safety. [that's another good one. public safety is compromised when ONE inmate gets out and re-offends. how are you going to keep five thousand of them from re-offending. each and every offense they commit is a compromise to public safety. eight statements, you have told eight lies.] (signed) A Conservative Taxpayer For Responsible Government. [and that was lie number nine.]

mr. liberal, that three southern states, each with the death penalty, and each actively executing inmates, can be run for what michigan pays today. what makes our inmates worth two billion dollars? aren't you ASHAMED that three backwards southern states can provide their citizens with more justice than we can here? they also provide more security. they also provide more 'retributive value' to their citizens. so, what makes a michigan criminal worth one hundred nine dollars a day? michigan pays more than florida, louisiana, and alabama COMBINED. three soveriegn states all do it better than michigan at ONE THIRD THE COSTS. how can that be? michigan IS the state with the most KNOW IT ALLS i've ever seen. why can't it PERFORM as well as the southern states? perhaps those KNOW IT ALLS just don't know. perhaps they are so wrapped up in MICHIGAN DOES IT BETTER to look and see for themselves. perhaps michigan is tired of being LAST in everything, and decided, no matter the cost, to be the highest at something, and picked prison costs to make them number one. pity they are only number ten. they were number eight, till new jersey and maine kicked it into gear and started really coddling their inmates.

I see no solutions here at all just more complaining. You need to get a life. You go figure out how to balance your demand for an effective system of crime and punishment and wanting a cost effective system too. Let's see how well you do.

do it exactly the way louisiana does it. they do it for 38 dollars per inmate per day. they do it with enough money to spare to be able to afford a capital punishment system unchallenged in the supreme court. yep, that's the way I'D do it. or maybe the way TEXAS does it. they do it for less, and execute MORE prisoners. or maybe the way FLORIDA does it. or ALABAMA. or MISSISSIPPI. but certainly NOT the way michigan does it. you certainly have no excuses for why michigan pays one hundred and nine dollars per inmate per day. so, their can obviously BE NO EXCUSES FOR IT. it's just a sad fact that you don't want to own up to. that and the even sadder fact that you don't feel you are in charge of the politicians you elected. citizens get results. subjects get to pay two billion a year for prisons.

I see a few states here but still nothing on any solutions. Where are the solutions?

in the ways the states operate. their people do not fail to have oversight on government spending. their people do not fail to punish inmates. their people do not put up with the kinds of shenanigans we do here. if you expect me to list each and every solution to each and every problem, i will. but you won't like it. first, get rid of the useless beurocrats in government. if they are not directly involved in inmate security, they need to go. second, get rid of the useless unions. they serve no purpose, and are a needless expense. third, quit paying to coddle inmates. if an expense is not directly related to the care, custody and control of an inmate, cut it immediately. fourth, quit paying to educate inmates. it's not the job of a prison to be a school. fifth, quit paying to entertain inmates. it's not the job of a prison to provide cable television. just those five things should save the state more than releasing all of the non-violent inmates in the system today. now, you have been told HOW to save money. it's YOUR JOB to do it. i'll help you all you need so WE can get it done. i've already contacted MY representative to let him know i'm dissatisfied with his oversight of prison expenses. why haven't you contacted YOURS? you keep waiting for them to do it for you. typical liberal behavior. representatives don't know how to represent us unless we tell them. it's your job as a citizen to keep them informed. i've done my job. now go and do yours.

I have contacted my representive several times concerning the bill I support HB 4262. I am glad you are finally doing something for yourself.

What are you doing here? You need to go south where they do everything right.(WRONG)You sound like You are still fighting the war between the NORTH and South. Grow up that war has been over with for many many years.

I do not understand why you are so concerned about two billion dollars when this country is spending trillions of dollars in another country and our own people are sinking fast right here at home. You do not mind your tax dollars being spent in other countries? You do not mind your hard earned dollars going to the big oil companys, who are making big profits off us? No your worried about money being spent on low-risk non-violent, sickly and aging inmates, that they may get out of prison. That we may help them reenter their communities, and educate them to become productive, tax paying citizens. Your solutions are unrealistic and non-productive here in Michigan. This state in an entirely different demographic location then where you come from and your not going to make this big change you preach. This bill is within range and can start saving tax dollars now. It's reasonable and I support it.

you posted... "I do not understand why you are so concerned about two billion dollars when this country is spending trillions of dollars in another country and our own people are sinking fast right here at home. [following your OWN logic, such as it is, YOU shouldn't be concerned about a hundred million when we are spending TRILLIONS in another country. so... why are you? by the way, which country are we spending TRILLIONS of dollars in???] You do not mind your tax dollars being spent in other countries? [no, not really. why does it bother you?] You do not mind your hard earned dollars going to the big oil companys, who are making big profits off us? [none of my tax dollars go to oil companies, just my fuel dollars. now billions of my FUEL dollars go to TAXES. more than half of what you pay per gallon is taxes.] No your worried about money being spent on low-risk non-violent, sickly and aging inmates, that they may get out of prison. [that's because over half of what i pay in taxes is spent to make prisoners comfortable, and you can't prove otherwise. nor do you have any clue as to why.] That we may help them reenter their communities, [you are helping them re-enter the community, but with disasterous results.] and educate them to become productive, [it's the school board's job to educate them to be productive, i hate to pay TWO people to do ONE job. you think it's the right thing to do.] tax paying citizens. [less than two percent of them actually BECOME tax paying citizens, the rest go back to living off of our taxes. raise that percentage a LOT and i MAY start to believe you.] Your solutions are unrealistic and non-productive here in Michigan. how do you know? you never tried them. and whats worse, you applaud yourself for refusing to even try. our prison system is what's non-productive.] This state in an entirely different demographic location then where you come from and your not going to make this big change you preach. [why? because you are too stupid and prideful to do it?] This bill is within range and can start saving tax dollars now. [why should we? we ARE spending TRILLIONS in other countries.] It's reasonable and I support it. [no, it's not reasonable, as you can't give a REASON you support it over saving a billion dollars.]

how and where it's being done better than it's being done here. YOU are the one who is fighting the war. michigan can't think it's way out of a ONE STATE RECESSION.

No because your to gutless and stupid to get what you say done. These are not solutions just senseless ,nonsense remarks. We are working on a reasonable, senseable bill that will lead to a decrease in our taxes that everyone will benefit from.

Then go south!!!!!!!!!!

This whole country is going into a recession.

Hey everyone it is time to contact our reps.

give me your REASON for wanting to only save a hundred million dollars instead of saving a BILLION DOLLARS.

should have contacted your reps when you first decided about this bill. we all did. why didn't you? my reps hear from me regularly, i'll bet you aren't even sure who yours are.

in a ONE STATE RECESSION for nearly a decade now. in fact, it almost directly corresponds to jennie's term as governor. you didn't seem too shook up about it before, why all of a sudden? did you NOT KNOW?

you must be too stupid and gutless to get YOUR program for releasing inmates done. i don't see any movement on this bill. why not? don't your representatives think it's a GOOD IDEA to put their political careers on the line for you?

against the south? you seem to be the only one who is fighting the civil war. you cannot stand for someone else to figure out how to get your precious state out of the mess it finds itself in. you cannot stand to find out that other states, especially SOUTHERN states, DO IT BETTER THAN YOU DO IT HERE IN MICHIGAN. three entire states, including the two states that execute the most inmates in the country, can do it for about what you pay here in michigan. you must be SO PROUD of that. you would have to release FIVE THOUSAND INMATES just to save a hundred million dollars. can you honestly say that you believe that NONE OF THEM WILL RE-OFFEND? you DID say they would be released with NO NEGATIVE IMPACT ON CRIME, DIDN'T YOU? i've never seen such hatred in a woman of medicine before. you hate yourself. you hate this state. you hate me. you hate the south. you hate your own government, both state and federal. but you LOVE them inmates. it must be tough to be a liberal in michigan. it must be tough being wrong all the time.

as i sit and sip my second cup of coffee... i read your comments. first, you bleat on about 'trillions being spent in other countries'. what does that have to do with what michigan spends on it's inmates? NOTHING. but you bleat on anyway, because you have LOST THE ARGUEMENT. then you bleat on about how we are gutless and stupid because we haven't gotten our changes put through YOUR elected representatives' heads. the intellegence of YOUR representatives is truly in question, not ours, but i'll run with it. those who believe as you do, that inmates should be released, obviously don't have enough political muscle behind them (read that ENOUGH VOTES) to get this bill passed, as it hasn't moved an inch. now, YOUR intelligence has been questioned dozens of times, and your spelling has been called into question time and again. i won't even mention the three or four errors on just the post i'm replying to now. so, you just keep on keeping your head in the sand, keep on electing those who say they are looking out for YOU, and keep paying your union dues. the liberal government will take care of you, and your beloved inmates. by the way, how can the government take care of them if they are not in the custody of the government?

Wrong on both counts.

My point was part sarcastic, but what I was getting at is that anything you beloved party does is great and everyone else is stupid idiots. Does not matter that we are head into a recession, does not matter that our people are lossing everything. Does not matter that we are spending mega-money in Iraq and sending our young people over there and then when they come home disfigured and suffering from PTSS their not getting any help. Does not matter that millions do not have health care. These things are not our problem. We throw people in prison and throw away the keys. Rehabilitate and educate them not our problem. We will just keep incarcrating more and more of them, but wait its starting to cost money now big money this has to stop. No we can't have any programs to help them when they get out that's not our problem. Our problem is when they reoffend and are returned to prison. And the whole revolving door starts over again. When does our problem ever end?

Before you critize my spelling be sure to check your own.

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electing REAL republicans who will pass the THREE STRIKES YOU'RE OUT laws that will slow down the recidivism in this state. until you make it HURT, they will keep re-offending. it worked for california, it should work here.

to draw attention away from the fact that you have lost this arguement and are four square on the WRONG SIDE of this debate. even you admit that other changes are necessary, so why do you tenaciously cling to the LEAST effective of them? because you firmly believe that your legislators won't obey your wishes anyway. what a defeatist attitude. you have lost before you begin. first, find out who WILL vote to straighten up the mess we are in, and elect him. simple. be advised, the cuts necessary WON'T benefit your loved one in prison. they will make it harder for them. they also won't release them.

You just don't get it. The republicians WILL NOT GET my VOTE. This attiude of yours that helping our people is not our problem is wrong. Until you walk in someone else's shoes you should not condemn them. I know many of the inmates belong in prison for the rest of their lifes for the crimes they have committed. But there also many who with some education, skills, help, and hope do not. I can see that you have never been in that position in your life, but I have, (not because I committed a crime either) and because someone believed in me, encouraged me, and helped me I now am doing very well. Now I would like to help people that are down and out and these reforms I back would do that and this bill could get that started helping them and at the same time helping the tax payers of MI. Out of sight and out of mind does not solve problems.

California is a mess. Not a good example.

but their prisons are run better than ours. it's a great example. three strikes has lowered their recidivism rate 23%. maybe we should try it. even with all the 'lifers', they STILL don't have as many prisoners as we do.

g-ma, in a fit of rage wrote... "You just don't get it. [yes, i do. pity you don't.] The republicians WILL NOT GET my VOTE. [why not? the democrats have you paying two billion a year and you STILL don't have good time. that voting like the union goons tell you to thing is sure working out fine for you, eh?] This attiude of yours that helping our people is not our problem is wrong. [okay, how's problem is it?] Until you walk in someone else's shoes you should not condemn them. [no, g-ma. as soon as they get convicted of a crime, you should condemn them. you just refuse to let go of the love you feel for all inmates.] I know many of the inmates belong in prison for the rest of their lifes for the crimes they have committed. [but you hate to see it happen to such nice little inmates.] But there also many who with some education, skills, help, and hope do not. [okay, what happened to the education we paid for the FIRST TIME? didn't it 'stick'? YOU used your education to gain a skill, why didn't they? and one more question, how much does hope cost? should we keep them in prison till the are properly educated, develop saleable skills, and have hope?] I can see that you have never been in that position in your life, but I have, (not because I committed a crime either) and because someone believed in me, encouraged me, and helped me I now am doing very well. [so, you were in prison? you never told me that. or do you consider when you were ignorant and uneducated the same as being in prison? you DID say you 'walked in their shoes'.] Now I would like to help people that are down and out and these reforms I back would do that and this bill could get that started helping them and at the same time helping the tax payers of MI. Out of sight and out of mind does not solve problems. [wow. a real run-on sentence. gotta love those. first, you like helping people who are 'down and out'. how do you define 'down and out'. most of the people in jail are drug dealers. plenty of money. they don't need your help cuz they get caught with THOUSANDS of dollars in cash on them. they can't do their taxes cuz they've NEVER done taxes. they don't pay taxes. they KEEP all their profits. now, how does this bill help them? it only turns them loose to go back on the streets. it provides NO education, NO preparation, NO assistance, NOTHING. nothing but being put back into the situation that caused them to be in jail in the first place. by the way, 'out of sight, out of mind' isn't what prisons are all about, it's NOT ON MY STREETCORNER, AND NOT IN MY LIVING ROOM.]

who's job is it to educate the inmates? when that inmate was a child, it was the DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION'S JOB. a group not exactly famous for turning out the best and brightest. unfortunately, our inmates were probably, even at that time, under the tender care of the juvenile authorities. now, the DEPARTMENT OF CORRECTIONS is also not famous for CORRECTING a lot of people. so, let's see. who do we dump this problem onto next? how about the DEPARTMENT OF LABOR? no, they don't work, even with a union. let's see. those precious inmates are really getting costly. before they become 'taxpaying age' they have already cost us a couple of billion dollars, then after that they go on to cost us two billion a year. all because they REFUSE TO BE EDUCATED, even though it's free. how you gonna convince them that education is important? keep them in jail till they pass the G.E.D.? with forty other states providing BETTER prisons for LESS money, you'd think that there was PLENTY of money for education. we DO spend more for prisons than we do for colleges here. you'd think you could give them all a degree in something for what we're paying. so, what are we wasting our money on? it's certainly not a quality prison system, as you bitch about it constantly. it's certainly not the golden educational opportunities that other states offer to their inmates for LESS DOLLARS. so, what is it? the cable television? the weight rooms? the free medical care when their tattoos become infected, or their hemmorhoids flare up?

Michigan is the only state in the country whose sentencing guidelines includes a broad catagory of moderate-risk offenders that judges at their discretion can send to prison or use community -based sanctions. Most judges are using prisons more and more and this has raised the prison population and the cost of prisons over one million dollars. Most studies have proven the only way to decrease this cost is to decrease the prison population.Prison reform is needed badly. First: We can use the MPRI ReEntry Iniative Program & the MPRI Community Placement Program while maintaining strict supervision. Second: Increase commutation and parole for medically fragile and elderly non-violent inmates. These people are a huge part of our prison cost. Also this can be done for foriegn nationals and deport them. Third: Invest in community-based programs that provide cost effective alternative sanctions for low-level offenders. Fourth: Increase number of parole officers to provide appropriate oversight and insure community safety. Fifth: Allow judges to order involuntary, out-patient mental health treatment for people with mentil illness. Sixth: Use drug courts and increase substance abuse programs and treatment. I know you won't like these reforms because all you want to do is put all offenders in prison and throw away the keys. Helping them is not our problem you will say. But I see a return can be huge.

will the savings from releasing those inmates cover those NEW UNFUNDED MANDATES? probably not. where is the money for all that supposed to come from? none of it is free, and most of it doesn't work.

THE SAME OLD REMARKS. I am getting tired of you and your stupity.

You always have to invest in the beginning to get a good return. PROVE they won't work, MR KNOW IT ALL.

Still nothing but complaining. NOBODY DOES ANYTHING RIGHT BUT YOU. Teachers, politicians, doctors, nurses, psychiatrists,etc. are all stupid, dumb, idiots that know nothing and yOU ARE AN EXPERT AT EVERYTHING. Someday you are going to fall flat on your face. I would sure like to be there when it happens.