Michigan Votes Forum

crazycajun:

my daughter has two degrees, and a private school education bought and paid for by us, not the state.

do your kids have the same?

My child -- now a very successful adult in her chosen field -- holds two college degrees plus advanced certification from quality public universities.  My child was educated in public schools from kindergarten through grade 12.  She had firm parental guidance and support throughout her preparatory schooling.  That poised her to succeed in her later studies and in a challenging career field.  

My wife and I helped pay for our daughter's education through our taxes.  Our child earned her university education through scholarships based on her achievement, and by working.  There was little in the way of "gifts" from indulgent parents.  She was expected to work hard and earn her way, and did exactly that.      

 it's not an indulgance to provide your child with the best education you can afford.

why settle for the mediocre option.

my daughter was also firmly guided, but not coddled. she earned several scholarships, and paid IN ADVANCE for her later education including all of her second degree.

we borrowed no money from other taxpayers, and she DIDN'T default on any loans, unlike a large number of people who take out student loans today.

i'm sorry that you consider paying your own way through college an INDULGENCE. i've saved for it fastidiously all my adult life, that is, of course, after paying for my own education.

my two grandchildren will also 'carry their own way' when it's time for them to go to college.

i don't feel that being a burden on my fellow taxpayers is a good thing to do. i'm not sure why you do, other than the fact that your public school indoctrination tells you it is.

 dear miza.

thank you, i am proud of her.

and yes, she went to a full day of private school, and a full evening of HOMESCHOOLING. her weekends were not for resting, but for studying other subjects as we saw fit.

her learning didn't stop, we made sure. she is now well versed in many subjects not all geared to passing standardize performance testgs

by the way, she DID score excellent scores on those very same tests. we worked hard to make her a well rounded individual. we even made sure that we taught her how to cook and change a tire. she learned how to shoot, and shot competitively since middle school.

she learned some cajun french thanks to her grandmother, she learned how to crochet thanks to her aunt. she also learned how to tune up an old volkswagen thanks to a burning desire to drive and a policy of YOU CAN DRIVE WHAT YOU CAN AFFORD TO BUY policy strictly enforced.

crazycajun:

 it's not an indulgance to provide your child with the best education you can afford.

why settle for the mediocre option.

my daughter was also firmly guided, but not coddled. she earned several scholarships, and paid IN ADVANCE for her later education including all of her second degree.

we borrowed no money from other taxpayers, and she DIDN'T default on any loans, unlike a large number of people who take out student loans today.

i'm sorry that you consider paying your own way through college an INDULGENCE. i've saved for it fastidiously all my adult life, that is, of course, after paying for my own education.

my two grandchildren will also 'carry their own way' when it's time for them to go to college.

i don't feel that being a burden on my fellow taxpayers is a good thing to do. i'm not sure why you do, other than the fact that your public school indoctrination tells you it is.

Crazy:

Congratulations to your daughter on her accomplishments.  She certainly seems to be a very accomplished person.

Private schools were the less-than-mediocre option in our daughter's case.  Public schools available to us were vastly superior to them.  Not all private schools provide quality education.  Many are dismal.

My daughter paid her entire way through college on scholarships, undergraduate and graduate programs, alike.  She did not default on any loans, and you are a low *** for having implied that.

I do not consider paying your own way through college, as my daughter did, an indulgence.  That is a worthy thing to do.  It helps cement constructive values and builds character.

Like the vast majority of hard working American taxpayers, I am no burden on my fellows.  Since serving my hitch in the United States Air Force at near pauper's wages 40 years ago, I have neither worked for nor contracted to any government agency operation, and have not slopped at the public trough. From your posting history, you cannot say that.

 i currently provide security at several prisons around the country, including a few here, and elsewhere around the world.

therefore, i guess i 'feed at several public troughs. but not all of them are public, as quite a few are privatized. if you took the 'implication' that i made PERSONALLY, you missed the point of the post (as usual).

congratulations on your daughter's accomplishments, despite the obvious handicap of being forced to accept public education.

i'm curious, though... with michigan having the worst record of public schools in the nation, where ever did you find a SUPERIOR one? i guess it's tough to find a private school with an alumni association that actually cares about the level of education up here.

pity.

 Very interesting watching you two talk :) 

 I agree good education is very important at a young age.  But, also for those parents out there with young kindergarten age cildren take note.

  Many countries have different shcool hours  ((shorter))  reason:  As with education children need sleep too.  A 5 year old should be getting roughly 10 -13 hours of sleep at least every night.  So say a child is up by 7:00AM  needs to be going to bed by 7:00PM. 
Someone mentioned activities after school really when would that be? 

 That little girl on the bus is getting home by 4:30-5:00ish.  Come home, eat dinner, go to bed.  KIndergarteners  need Mom and Dad too.  Their attention spans are only so long....  Smart children are well rested children, its a fact.    My freind who is a teach says all her boys in her class are ADD???   C,mon it just so happens huh?  Over rushed children as well as children who have poor diets like someone else mentioned...  Tell me if one of you as an adult was getting 4 hours of sleep everynight and expected to work 60 hours a week do you think you would do very well?  The information you learn does not get absorbed too well....  Scale it down to a 5 year old.. 

Kindergarteners need to be kindergarteners----1st grade they are off.

I have to wonder why the child you keep writing about is home from kindergarten at 4:30 or 5:00 pm.  

Public schools in my area are in session from 8:00 am or a little later, to about 2:30 or 2:45 pm.  That covers a period of less than seven hours, including recess and lunch break time.

My guess is that this schedule is fairly common among public elementary schools in Michigan.

So, is that child you keep writing about really spending 2 hours or more on a school bus in the afternoon?  Of course, that is possible, but I actually doubt it is happening.  (If it is, someone should raise the Dickens with that school.)  

If a parent is at home, and the bus is taking that long, the immediate and sure solution is for a parent to pick up the child at school.  

The most likely scenario here is that the child is spending most of that time parked in some kind of school-provided after school care program because no parent is home in the afternoon to receive the child from the bus.

Attention Deficit Disorder is a medical problem, and a diagnosis that teachers cannot make.  Your friend the teacher is out of line making that assertion about all the boys in her class "are ADD."

Any young child that is only getting four hours of sleep a night certainly is being poorly cared for at home.  If this is the case with your friend's child, perhaps you should take up the matter with proper authorities.

Whether you like it or not, the evidence is that all-day kindergarten works well for children.  That is why it has come back in vogue, even in an era when it it would be more economical to run half-day sessions as was done for years.

Believeing in local control to the extent that it can be workable and provide quality schooling, I am not sure that state legislation should mandate all day kindergarten for every public school district in Michigan.  But that does not make all day kindergarten a bad idea by any means.  

 My friends child will be going to a preschool starts at 8:50AM school day ends at 3:45 

 by the time the little girl will be getting home even if her mother or father pick her up will be around 4:30 if she took the bus she would be home by 5:00pm    This is Monday-friday  everyday.

Must be in bed by 7:00 because she needs to be up by 7:30 -latest.  5 year olds need 10-13 hours of sleep.

Busy week for a 5 year old.  She will be too tired to do any after school activities let alone have no time to?  come home, eat, spend a half an hour with family to bed...

childrens brains this little, need rest so the brain has the ability to take in all this information and retain it.

 okay miza...

which is worse?

all day DAY CARE?

or...

all day KINDERGARTEN?

you don't seem to mind sending the kid in question to an all day DAY CARE, which may or may not provide for the child's educational needs, but seem to have a big problem with sending that same kid to a kindergarten class that ends at 2:30.

besides, in that 'BUSY DAY' of kindergarten is scheduled a NAP. something i think they should keep until the kid graduates college.

 no burden on your fellow taxpayers???

do you think that YOUR taxes cover your child's educational expenses???

no, they don't.

my child wasn't there, so your child took advantage of MY MONEY also. and hundreds of other taxpayer's. my tax money helped to pay for YOUR child's education, and then, on top of that, i put my child through a superior schooling, with a superior homeschooling environment.

all you've done by utilizing the public schools is pay your taxes and had your child educated at the public trough, although i do appreciate your concern shown by continuing your child's education at home. if more parent's thought as WE BOTH DO, and continued their children's education at home, there would be FAR FEWER problems in michigan.

imagine the wonderful things that this state could accomplish by NOT having to pay to educate it's children.

imagine the savings we would see.

imagine the possibilities that would open up if we all took it as our PERSONAL responsibility to educate our children, and not the state's.

Crazy cajun,,

BOTH

All day care AND  all day kindergarten..

kindergarten class ends at 3:45 not 2:30 .. I personally think 2:30 would make a whole lot more sense.  child would be home by 3:30 the latest.  Biut were talking 3:45 the child is let out and will be home earliest 4:30.. Some of those kids will be walking in the door at 5:00 and I'm sure crying because they will be so tired.

I so so so agree.  My whole point.  NAPS!!  Sleep and naps are needed so much at that age (any age really) but more so for 5 and under.. If we want SMART children here then we need to start with the basics sleep, good food and grow from there.

KINDERGARTEN NAPS:   An hour of lights dim and a video of veggie tales.. Yeah throw the TV on thats great while your at it let them play some video games too.

I could not agree more... I wish we could get more people to see it this way.  Okay.. yes I know especially right now both parents are working and there is really no other opiton but to have their child in an all day program. 

But please Michigan let the stay at home mothers or fathers choose on half day or full day or at leas allow the parent to pick the child up before lunch.  I told my friend to do that by the way.

Homeschooling is wonderfull however not many people are cut out for it.  But if you have a loving family who cares you build that childs foundation home gives the child security love, SLEEP, good food etc.   If there is no solid foundation to start from all the whole days of school and teaching are not going to do a darn thing for the child.

But then again some children have no family to come home to and that is when this whole day kindergarten is wonderful.

I just hope that little gal has a good teacher replacing Mama.

”do you think that YOUR taxes cover your child's educational expenses???”

Yes, I do.

The reason:  My wife and I began paying school taxes many years before our child entered school, our school taxes have continued for many years after our child left the public school system, and our school taxes will continue for many years into the future, if all goes well for at least one of us.  So far, our tax contributions have spanned a time period that is about 2.5 times as long as our kid was in the tuition free public school system.  The gap grows larger with each passing year and tax bill.

Not only that, our child, now a successful adult who has no children pays taxes that contribute to public school funding, and has for several years.  We definitely are a "pay our own way" kind of family.

”all you've done by utilizing the public schools is pay your taxes and had your child educated at the public trough …”

No.  Taxpayers, virtually by definition are not freeloaders on society, as you imply, and I never before have seen them so characterized.  My wife and I contributed substantially to that “public trough” through our taxes, and in return for our contribution have received through our daughter’s public school education what we regard as solid value.  As noted above, also, we began our contribution to the education fund well before receiving any direct and immediate benefit from it, and continue our contribution long after the direct and immediate benefits from it to us have ceased.  Furthermore, we did not just “have our child educated” but instead were actively involved and engaged in her education throughout her school years. 

”imagine the wonderful things that this state could accomplish by NOT having to pay to educate it's children. imagine the savings we would see.”

Name them.  (I can’t imagine them.)  But be careful to consider the very real downside of a state populated by uneducated people in this day and age.

 no sane...

our taxes pay for OTHER PEOPLE'S CHILDREN when OUR CHILDREN ARE NOT IN SCHOOL.

I KNOW that I PAID for 100% of my child's education and at least a part of YOUR child's education.

while you paid for part of your child's education and part of other children's education.

you also had MUCH LESS SAY in your child's education, as teachers in small private schools tend to listen to the parent's wishes.

 you really need to check into this... kindergarten lets out at 2:30 everyplace i know of.. you may wish to check some other schools in your area.

some may still offer the choices you wish.

OR... you COULD send your child to a PRIVATE SCHOOL, they usually offer flexible scheduling.

crazycajun:

 no sane...

our taxes pay for OTHER PEOPLE'S CHILDREN when OUR CHILDREN ARE NOT IN SCHOOL.

In your previous post you suggested that the taxes my wife and I paid and continue to pay have not covered the cost of our daughter’s public school education (which ended 15 years ago), and now you are saying that they did, and then some.  Which is it? 

You can’t really have this both ways.  Are you trying to make an actual point, or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing and stirring the pot?  Curious minds wish to know.

”I KNOW that I PAID for 100% of my child's education and at least a part of YOUR child's education.”

From what I’ve observed here you claim to know a lot of things, a few of which may be true.  Your writing something and posting it on the internet under a pseudonym just doesn’t make it so in my book or anybody else's.

Perhaps you did pay for 100% of your child’s education, as you claim.  So what?  What point that is pertinent to this legislation about all-day kindergarten in Michigan public schools are you trying to make with such a claim? 

”you also had MUCH LESS SAY in your child's education, as teachers in small private schools tend to listen to the parent's wishes.’

That is your assertion based on conjecture, and not necessarily a truthful fact. 

The truthful facts here are that you do not know me, nor do you know what kind of relationship I established and maintained with my child’s public school teachers, or anything else that supports your claim.

My own observation, based on experience with small private schools of quality is that teachers and administrators in them do listen to parents’ wishes, as polite and reasonable people will do, but do not always or necessarily grant them.  I’ve found the same thing to be true in public schools.

 Crazy cajun

Curious which area do you know do schools get out at 2:30?  My friend has not one in her area.  If your wondering why I'm so concerned I have been very involved in this childs upbringing.  My children are a tad older however they are doing this in my area as well.

All schools we know are let out at 3:45 NONE 2:45????  Even the private school that she has been considering sending her daughter too just changed with the public schools decsion to all day kindergarten and they also let out at 3:45.... I just can't get over what a long day that is, really?  And yes the child more than likely will be going to a private school.  But it's so weird the shcool does everything the same way as the public ones in its area do.  One teacher use to teach at public and now teachs there? I asked her I hope this is a good school I mean its' private but lets hope the teachers are quality.

Working 9-5 for ME?  I'm tired.

Miza:

All schools we know are let out at 3:45 NONE 2:45????  Even the private school that she has been considering sending her daughter too just changed with the public schools decsion to all day kindergarten and they also let out at 3:45.... I just can't get over what a long day that is, really?  And yes the child more than likely will be going to a private school.  But it's so weird the shcool does everything the same way as the public ones in its area do.  One teacher use to teach at public and now teachs there? I asked her I hope this is a good school I mean its' private but lets hope the teachers are quality.

It is not weird that the private school in your area does things the same was the public schools do.  That is common wherever private private and public schools exist in proximity to one another.  Like it or not, the fact is that public schools -- particularly at the kindergarten-elementary level -- provide a very successful model for education.  Imitation, it is said, is the sincerest form of flattery.

Interesting that a teacher from the public schools now is teaching in the private school.  Usually, by an overwhelming percentage, it works the other way:  Private school teachers move to join public school faculties as soon as opportunity opens up and they can get hired.  The primary reason, of course, is that public school wages and benefits usually are superior to those provided by private schools.  This is one case in which market forces do work rationally.  The benefit for public schools -- their return for spending a bit more -- is that they get to choose from the cream of the crop among teacher applicants.  

You should hope your private school has quality teachers.  The fact that it is private, as you correctly indicate, is no guarantee that it does.   

 have friends in the u.p., the western parts of the state, and the thumb. all their rug-rats are home by three.

check out the quality of the schools for yourself, not just whether or not the other parents like the school.

 no, sane...

it's not weird at all. it's called what is CUSTOMARY.

just like businesses customarily closing at five used to be a common occurrence.

your zeal for public schools is very obvious, and a little scary. you would think that state sponsored anything would scare you. as state schools are traditionally hiring the LOW BIDDER for any job.

do you really feel comfortable having to send your children to the teacher who will work for less than any other teacher?

also, do you feel comfortable having to send your children to the teacher who has to rely on a union to keep their job?

 you also may want to re-check your facts, sane.

the VAST MAJORITY of teachers DO NOT migrate from private schools to public. in fact, private schools usually recruit directly from colleges, offering MUCH HIGHER PAY to attract the highest qualified teachers.

now there ARE private schools, usually church run, that cannot afford a quality teacher retention program in this state, but then again, this state is fairly unique. i would not associate my child with a school that cannot, or will not put the money forward to retain the best and the brightest.

certainly the PUBLIC SCHOOLS aren't doing much to retain the best and the brightest, as the unions constantly have to get involved with teacher pay issues. teachers at REPUTABLE PRIVATE SCHOOLS don't feel the need to unionize... i wonder why that is???

 doing a quick google search for michigan dismissal times offered these results.

northville, 2:16

haviland/waterford offers two kindergarten classes one between 8:35 and 11:28, and another between 12:23 and 3:26. pick one.

novi schools let out at 2:56.

parkview/village oaks let kindergarten out at 12:07.

deerfield lets out at 3:51.

lakeville lets out at 3:42.

look around, you MIGHT just find one that suits your needs.

there are so many choices...

now what was that about what the public schools do???

 What public schools are doing starting fall 2009 is changing the time of all kindergarten times.. this is what the school has said

3:45 is the main time these schools will be releasing the students in many areas. 

It would be nice to pick one wouldn't it.  However if you choose one that let out in Novi at 2:16 it would take the poor child 2 hours to get home.

However, you no if some schools let out at lets say 2:16 I wonder if you can pick your child up regardless at what ever school that time?  This is a good questiion for the schoolit sure would be nice. 

3;45 for a 5 year old is too late  as I said before getting home 4:30 and to bed at 7:00pm 5 days a week.  thanks for checking that out I should print this she could bring this to her school.  When they say mandatory does that mean you can not regardless take your child out an our early I wonder?

 how close is the closest school to you?

there must be one less than an hour away...

just curious...

 this board gets a little hot if you know what I'm talking about--makes good reading people tell it how it is.  I would rather not give out direct locations.  But the ones you listed that get out earlier are very very far from her.  I told her not to worry so much about it but she is.  

 And honeslty I can understand 2 hours between getting home and going to bed.. That child gives a heck of time going to bed too plus she has other children.  I just think the goverment should have thought of all this.  Why not let the parents take the children out if they live farther out and the children will not be getting home so late. 

 Honestly, there is this  little girl that would get home everyday at 5:00pm the bus would pick her up by 7:30???  Damn that is a hard work week.   I

 just strongly believe parents ((good)) ones need to be involved that first year at least a little.  I wonder who you can call and ask about getting them out a tad earlier for Michigan here?

 phased that wrong up over there.  Parents that choose all day kindergarten are not bad, not at all.  All day has it benefits I agree with this.  What I mean is that I think its bad parenting when you feel ALL  children should be treated equal at 5 years old.  Some believe a 40 hour school week for a 5 year old is too much.  And if those parents want to pick up there children an hour earlier like other school let their children out anyway then they should be able to. 

A good parent takes responsiblity for their children and looks out for what is in the best interest of THEM.

 sorry if i confused you...

i didn't ask WHERE you were,,, i asked how far away the closest school to you was.

i cannot see you being close to an hour away from the nearest school. there should be one LOTS CLOSER...

and remember, there IS always the option of HOMESCHOOLING.

 oh

the farthest school from the child I'm talking about is about a half an hour away.  i believe the child is going to go to private. Homeschooling is awesome.  It takes a special person to be able to do that.  For all parents that can do that GOO FOR YOU!!   I know a boy who was homeschooled he is a wonderful doctor now.  she trys to incorporate which is good she trys hard.

I wonder if the school or schools would let the child out early?  do you think?

crazycajun:

your zeal for public schools is very obvious, and a little scary. you would think that state sponsored anything would scare you. as state schools are traditionally hiring the LOW BIDDER for any job.

Sure, I have zeal for public schools.  I’m a public school fan.  And a private school fan, too.  You might call me an education fan – a supporter or even an education booster.  I believe in it.  Education helps people achieve personal independence.  It empowers individuals.

Why do you find my “zeal” for education “a little scary”?  Do educated people frighten you?  Does individual empowerment frighten you? 

Now, as for your contention that private school teachers are paid more than public school teachers, well, that’s plain hogwash, especially as a general statement.  Consider this:

”Teachers in private schools usually receive about two-thirds of what a typical public school teacher is paid …”  (Flint Journal, Oct. 25, 2007)

Also, use your superior Googling skills to check out compensation discussions on private school teacher internet bulletin boards.  You quickly will discover that with rare exceptions, private school teachers report they earn substantially less than their public school counterparts down the road. 

”do you really feel comfortable having to send your children to the teacher who will work for less than any other teacher?”

Actually, given the real facts, you should be directing that question at those who send or want to send their kids to private schools.  My child’s schooling is done.  Have you asked that question of yourself?

”the VAST MAJORITY of teachers DO NOT migrate from private schools to public.”

Could be true.  Might not be true.  I don’t know either way.  Can you document the validity of your statement? 

Of course, many private school teachers may not have adequate credentials for teaching in public schools.  And then, there always is the supply-demand equation which translates currently to many applicants for every teaching job.  That kind of thing could explain why teachers wind up staying in private school jobs. 

”in fact, private schools usually recruit directly from colleges, offering MUCH HIGHER PAY to attract the highest qualified teachers.”

And just how does “recruiting directly from colleges” by private schools differ from what is done by public schools, which also recruit directly from colleges? 

Again, also, the generalization that private schools offer “much higher pay” than public schools is not borne out by the facts as generally reported.  It evidently is true that some prestigious private schools – the elites – do pay premium wages to their teachers.  But they do not represent the run of the lot.

And tell us, what does this have to do with all-day kindergarten being offered by Michigan public schools as a matter of law?

 sane.

let's put it this way.

your zeal for public education in the face of the facts that the michigan public education system is performing very poorly by all standards, is indeed confusing, and quite scary.

i could see if you were supporting a system that consistently turned out superior students, or a system that didn't have the highest failure rate in the nation, but you aren't.

my zeal for private education is born from my zeal for INDEPENANT education, not a system tied to cronyism and methods tied to test passing as opposed to solid educational ideals.

in michigan, i have discovered over the past few years, private schools are often found wanting for support and funding. in louisiana, where i am from, they are not. i have found a few here that are not strapped for funds, and can thus make high offers for teachers.

now, with, as you say, the highest paid teachers available, you SHOULD be getting the best results. but alas, you are not.

the reasons for this are many, and most of the blame can be placed on the parents, but some of the blame must go to the teachers and their unions. any time that a group has to unionize, they are not bargaining from a position of strength.

if the teachers truly were the most qualified, they would have no problems getting pay raises, as their skills and performance would certainly merit it.

as it stands here, that doesn't seem to be the case.

my question to you is, IF the teachers here are as worthy of praise as you say they are, why aren't they PERFORMING BETTER?

WHY is the FAILURE RATE so high?  

WHY are the teachers blaming everything and everyone else for their poor performance?

admittedly, there ARE some wonderful teachers here, but they are few, and unfortunately, very far between.

i have no problem with an all day kindergarten, as i have no problems with public schools, or homeschooling.

the goal is EDUCATION, not indoctrination. but parents must be part of that process, and if that process leads responsible parents AWAY from the public school arena, so be it.

this is called FREEDOM OF CHOICE.  i CANNOT CHOOSE how the government spends my tax dollars, but i certainly can CHOOSE not to send my children to a school that doesn't offer satisfactory educational results.

 miza...

i'm glad we cleared that up.

to answer your question, i think they would, but you have to ask them, and explain why you wish to take your child out early.

perhaps there is a school close to you that has a MORNING CLASS that lets out around noon, that would probably be your best option, but you would have to find that out for yourself.

you said it takes a special person to homeschool, not really, it just takes a parent willing to make the several sacrifices to make sure it happens in the right way.

most people think of home schooling as a "total education" where the child stays home all day to be taught by the parents.

that IS one way of looking at it, but ANYONE who educates their children OVER AND ABOVE what they learn in school IS HOMESCHOOLING THEM.

yes, it's more than just asking them "HOW WAS YOUR DAY?", or "DID YOU GET INTO ANY TROUBLE AT SCHOOL?". you have to not only take an interest in what they are learning, but try to make sure that they ABSORB IT. ask questions about it, have them demonstrate to you what they have learned. ask them to explain what they found out, and challenge them to find out more.

your kids will probably resist, but keep plugging at it.. sometimes it's as easy as asking questions during the drive to school, or at dinner. you'd be amazed how proud most kids are to fill you in on what they learned, if you only take the time to really ask them.

i think that you are showing wonderful interest in the education of your child, keep it up and you and the child should be just fine.

 Thank you Crazycajun we will do just that take a look at whats around.

Your response was wonderful, I have to say I hope more parents out there will read your post you make sense.

HOMESCHOOLING could not have been explained ANY better.....

Thank you, Thank you  :)

 you're very welcome.

good luck