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Latest post 04-13-2009 5:54 PM by anansie. 161 replies.
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Anonymous Citizen
  - Joined on 11-22-2008
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I Oppose This Legislation . . .
My opposition is based on a reasoned examination of the issues at hand. Are you saying that I am a criminal?
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Anonymous Citizen
- Joined on 11-22-2008
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The Challenge . . . Once Again
>The current law in Michigan could be best titled the "Full Employment for Attorneys Act" since shooting a bad guy will most certainly result in your being sued by the bad guy's family.<
Hogwash. I’ve looked high and low to find the cases that would validate this argument and haven’t been successful.
Now, one more time, the challenge: Cite a string of Michigan cases that support this contention so they can be examined, and maybe you will be persuasive. This challenge has been out there for six or seven months, now, ever since these so-called self defense bills were introduced in the legislature, and nobody has taken it up yet. That leads to the strong suspicion that no such body of cases exists, which of course means that the statement quoted above is a pure fabrication.
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Anonymous Citizen
- Joined on 11-22-2008
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A Fact About Self Defense
Actually, the Michigan Prosecuting Attoerneys Coordinating Council -- an autonimous state agency within the Michigan Department of Attorney General -- provides this advisory definition, with brief remarks to the state’s prosecutors regarding self defense. It is based on the law as it now stands and has been well established in MIchigan:
“a legally-justified use of force to protect one's self, another person, or property against some injury attempted by another person ... the right to repel force with force ... the defendant (i) must have honestly and reasonably believed that he had to use force for protection, (ii) may use only the type and degree of force that seems necessary for protection at the time based on the circumstances known to him, (iii) must not have acted wrongfully and brought on the assault (i.e., provoked the attack) ... In Michigan, a Prosecutor has the burden of disproving a defendant's self-defense claim beyond a reasonable doubt.”
Please take special note of the last sentence, repeated here for emphasis:
“In Michigan, a Prosecutor has the burden of disproving a defendant's self-defense claim beyond a reasonable doubt.”
While this certainly allows for real investigation to uncover all pertinent facts when self defense is claimed, it also places a very heavy burden of proof on the prosecutor who would bring charges. It explains why we see virtually no charges brought or prosecutions pursued in cases of legitimate self defense. (Not all claims of self defense are legitimate, by a long shot, as court records clearly show.)
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Admin003
- Joined on 11-22-2008
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Rep. Cushingberry's "no vote explanation"
Rep. Cushingberry, having reserved the right to explain his protest against the passage of the bill, made the following statement:
"Mr. Speaker and members of the House:
What is the problem we are trying to cure? Are we advocating killing? Is this another piece of electioneering at the danger of the general public? What if someone honestly accidentally strikes or touches someone can you use deadly force?
'Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord.' 'Ye have heard that it has been said an eye for an eye but I say unto you resist not evil. . . . . . .' This package of bills hb's 5142, 5143, 5153, and 5488 are designed to bring out the worst in our fraught with danger for the whole community. What if someone's aim is off and innocent bystanders are near by and get killed? Should they die to make a point?
As an outdoorsman who respects weapons I have serious and grave suspicions about this package. My experience as a member of the bar tells me most shootings are between friends, families, acquaintances, and people otherwise known to one another. The murder rate will probably go up and the spiral of violence will continue fear, weapons, anger, vengeance, cops, jails and prisons. Where will it end!
Despair and hopelessness will then increase and those bent on wrong-doing will be more apt to use ultimate force in the first place.
How about more mental health treatment available and more mental health facilities so volatile individuals can get more help.
How about anger management being a part of school curriculums as well as ethics? Why not more human sexuality and respect for the opposite sex becoming hot media topics to encourage greater respect?
Finally will we ever embrace our diversity or is this our generations lynching justified by self defense?
Too many unanswered questions for this solution in search of a problem."
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crazycajun
 - Joined on 11-22-2008
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try and convince me why we need a duty to retreat law in the first place.
why was it enacted?
was it to make some relative of a perpetrator "feel good"?
michigan constitution, article 1. Sec. 6.
Every person has a right to keep and bear arms for the defense of himself and the state.
keep your powder dry.
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." Bovard 1994
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Anonymous Citizen
- Joined on 11-22-2008
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Get Acquainted With The Facts
>try and convince me why we need a duty to retreat law in the first place. why was it enacted? was it to make some relative of a perpetrator "feel good"? <
Perhaps you should acquaint yourself with the reality of Michigan law as it exists before popping off about it.
The fact is that no “duty to retreat” law has been enacted in Michigan. What very limited “duty to retreat” from an attacker there may be is well established by common law and common sense, which has worked very effectively to protect Michigan citizens’ interests in the area of self defense.
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crazycajun
- Joined on 11-22-2008
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in who's interest is it for YOU to have to retreat from a felon in YOUR home?
How has this served YOUR interest?
How is it in MY BEST INTEREST to run from a felon in MY home?
michigan constitution, article 1. Sec. 6.
Every person has a right to keep and bear arms for the defense of himself and the state.
keep your powder dry.
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." Bovard 1994
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crazycajun
- Joined on 11-22-2008
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the fact that the charges were brought up in the first place is prima facie evidence of our point. do you really think that after the criminal trial (making it criminal to defend ones self.) is over that the civil litigants won't be flocking around like flies at a cow barn?
michigan constitution, article 1. Sec. 6.
Every person has a right to keep and bear arms for the defense of himself and the state.
keep your powder dry.
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." Bovard 1994
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crazycajun
- Joined on 11-22-2008
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if your county prosecutor thinks he has a "case" against someone who lawfully defended himself, and is willing to go through all the trouble to do so, even though it may be tossed out later after a barrage of public opinion slaps him in the face,
then...
your prosecutor has an AGENDA.
why do we have to register guns?
because said prosecutor wants to CONFISCATE THEM!
why do we have to retreat from felons?
because THEY are more important than WE are.
why do you not see this for what it is?
the government stepping in to solve what could be the most expensive lawsuit that you will ever face. if you think that the family of the person who breaks into your house wont sue you, you have another thing coming.
why do you think YOUR insurance company considers you defending yourself with lethal force IN YOUR OWN HOME an uninsurable intentional act?
because THEY have been sued before!!!
in this state!!!
recently!!!
michigan constitution, article 1. Sec. 6.
Every person has a right to keep and bear arms for the defense of himself and the state.
keep your powder dry.
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." Bovard 1994
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crazycajun
- Joined on 11-22-2008
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this is not about race.
it is about self protection.
no one except you has mentioned the color of the perpetrators skin.
michigan constitution, article 1. Sec. 6.
Every person has a right to keep and bear arms for the defense of himself and the state.
keep your powder dry.
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." Bovard 1994
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crazycajun
- Joined on 11-22-2008
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thank you, Admiral.
michigan constitution, article 1. Sec. 6.
Every person has a right to keep and bear arms for the defense of himself and the state.
keep your powder dry.
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." Bovard 1994
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crazycajun
- Joined on 11-22-2008
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is there truely a "right to sue?"
even though the person suing is "feloniously wrong"?
michigan constitution, article 1. Sec. 6.
Every person has a right to keep and bear arms for the defense of himself and the state.
keep your powder dry.
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." Bovard 1994
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crazycajun
- Joined on 11-22-2008
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a wise man once said...
"The only practical use for an attorney is to protect one from ANOTHER ATTORNEY."
michigan constitution, article 1. Sec. 6.
Every person has a right to keep and bear arms for the defense of himself and the state.
keep your powder dry.
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." Bovard 1994
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crazycajun
- Joined on 11-22-2008
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where do you get that from???
michigan constitution, article 1. Sec. 6.
Every person has a right to keep and bear arms for the defense of himself and the state.
keep your powder dry.
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." Bovard 1994
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crazycajun
- Joined on 11-22-2008
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it only guarantees it AFTER YOU RETREAT...
michigan constitution, article 1. Sec. 6.
Every person has a right to keep and bear arms for the defense of himself and the state.
keep your powder dry.
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." Bovard 1994
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crazycajun
- Joined on 11-22-2008
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if the claims supporting this legislation are not supported by voluminous case law and very recent precedents, they are invalid?
so....
why is the michigan legislature trying to enact this legislation?
it only takes ONE wrong to make it WRONG.
michigan constitution, article 1. Sec. 6.
Every person has a right to keep and bear arms for the defense of himself and the state.
keep your powder dry.
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." Bovard 1994
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crazycajun
- Joined on 11-22-2008
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that the N.R.A. even HAS self defense insurance makes our point.
michigan constitution, article 1. Sec. 6.
Every person has a right to keep and bear arms for the defense of himself and the state.
keep your powder dry.
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." Bovard 1994
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crazycajun
- Joined on 11-22-2008
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this law has nothing to do with someone who "accidentally touches or strikes someone"...
the act of burglary or murder or rape is NO ACCIDENT. it is an INTENTIONAL act.
michigan constitution, article 1. Sec. 6.
Every person has a right to keep and bear arms for the defense of himself and the state.
keep your powder dry.
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." Bovard 1994
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Anonymous Citizen
- Joined on 11-22-2008
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Same Old, Same Old Blather
>why do you think YOUR insurance company considers you defending yourself with lethal force IN YOUR OWN HOME an uninsurable intentional act?
because THEY have been sued before!!!
in this state!!!
recently!!! <
Show me the Michigan cases -- with citations that enable us to examine them -- and perhaps I will find your argument credible. No cites, no credibility. Very simple.
(By the way, that challenge has been issued repeatedly in this discussion and nobody has taken it up yet. Could it be that the cases just don’t exist? I suspect that’s probably so.)
You really should do your homework before spouting off.
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Anonymous Citizen
- Joined on 11-22-2008
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Here's A Likely Explanation
>if the claims supporting this legislation are not supported by voluminous case law and very recent precedents, they are invalid? . . . why is the michigan legislature trying to enact this legislation?<
Could it be pandering to people like you?
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crazycajun
- Joined on 11-22-2008
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now WHY would the michigan legislature wish to pander to people like me???
as opposed to continuing to pander to people like you?
michigan constitution, article 1. Sec. 6.
Every person has a right to keep and bear arms for the defense of himself and the state.
keep your powder dry.
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." Bovard 1994
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crazycajun
- Joined on 11-22-2008
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obviously the politicians involved are taking a less narrow view of events around the country, and are trying to head off any problems before they become election issues.
they obviously see things that you don't.
why don't you ask them why they are trying to enact this legislation, so that you may see "where they are coming from".
michigan constitution, article 1. Sec. 6.
Every person has a right to keep and bear arms for the defense of himself and the state.
keep your powder dry.
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." Bovard 1994
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crazycajun
- Joined on 11-22-2008
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and i have also read some michigan supreme court decisions that show how the current laws are randomly enforced, innefectually prosecuted, and disregarded when it seems politically correct.
a wrong does not have to happen regularly, or recently to make it wrong.
many other states are also changing "duty to retreat" laws, favoring "castle doctrine" laws.
by the way, so is the federal government.
michigan constitution, article 1. Sec. 6.
Every person has a right to keep and bear arms for the defense of himself and the state.
keep your powder dry.
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." Bovard 1994
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crazycajun
- Joined on 11-22-2008
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so, why are our tax dollars being spent on passing this legislation?
michigan constitution, article 1. Sec. 6.
Every person has a right to keep and bear arms for the defense of himself and the state.
keep your powder dry.
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." Bovard 1994
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Anonymous Citizen
- Joined on 11-22-2008
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You're relatively new on this site. So just a head's-up:
Carrot Top has been a consistent commie-lib poster for a while. Trust me, debating him is an excercise in frustration because he simply will not be persuaded.
Moreover, his usual style is to pick and choose a line or two from a post by someone who has directly stated an opinion, bracket it with "carrots," then tear away in isolation.
On this issue, self defense, even the national congress has seen fit to a resolve that self defense is an individual right. At the state level, Michigan is getting out in front.
This bill recognizes that the litigation lottery in this country is out of control. But Carrot Top is either unable to understand or refuses to accept the realities of the courts and insurance systems as they are.
You probably know that local criminal cases aren't published in legal texts. You probably also know that roughly ninety-five percent of civil suits settle before trial, particularly when there is an insurance company involved. Not only are such cases not published, settled cases are also kept quiet by a standard confidentiality clause written into the release.
For these reasons, it would require more than a bit of research to compile evidence that Carrot Top might consider persuasive. "Might" is the key word, there: I don't think he'll ever allow himself to be persuaded that self defense is a good thing. And quite frankly, I think there's enough voters who do that his is relatively inconsequential.
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crazycajun
- Joined on 11-22-2008
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i have come to those same conclusions myself, and i'm sorry if i'm taking up all the space and all the conversation.
if the truth be told, it is kind of fun to yank his chain...
especially since the more we 'spar', the more he shoots his own position in the foot.
i'm sorry, but self defense, and shooting issues in general are a pet subject to me, so i tend to get 'involved' in these kind of discussions with those who haven't had to defend themselves yet.
again, i apologise for the length of this discussion, especially since the law has all but passed.
thanks.
michigan constitution, article 1. Sec. 6.
Every person has a right to keep and bear arms for the defense of himself and the state.
keep your powder dry.
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." Bovard 1994
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