Michigan Votes Forum

That since this bill has been vetoed all the nanies have disappeared and we're still pissed! Clearly we are not going away! I hope it shows on November 7th!

i'm sure you will do just fine. if you could make it here you'll definitely make it there. the additude of the people in ohio is way more positive. they are friendly and they don't shout their holier-than-thou like the pro-helmet bumpers. they also celabrate a lower fatality and accident rate than michiganistan. those jack*** helmet bumpers crawled under their rocks. we free choice people...take our money to our surronding states. ride free with our brothers and sisters in a non-communist inviroment.

i don't see where clinton was good for michigan, nor was he good for any other state. he trashed the reputation of the country, and the institution of the presidency. he LIED. the dems keep saying that bush lied, but he's being proven more and more right as time goes on. i think that the one-two punch of a republican governor and a republican president would be the best for michigan, and this country.

think that they have won. they're celebrating.

wrong in michigan that he did RIGHT in the OTHER 49 STATES?

Now let's get back to the constitution and only let property owners vote.

It's not her fault that there are no jobs in Michigan, it's all Bush's trade policies that are killing jobs here. What a load of crap! This woman needs to be sent back to Canada post-haste.

Jenny has sent jobs to states that are on our borders, increased unemployment, and still belives she can tax michigan residents and buisnesses untill the state shows a profit. So according to you the only thing that would change is that michigan residents would get back some of their personall freedoms and buisnesses would get some tax relief. wait a sec, tax relife might make Michigan a little more appeling to buisnesses. possibly they might decide to build here insted of to the south of our border. Hey they might even need employees that would drive down unemployment, thereby increasing tax revenue. THINK IT WOULD WORK. D. Kenzie

You will vote in November and send the worst governor the great State of Michigan has ever had back to canada. I am amazed that people still can back this loser. VOTE VOTE VOTE and get your friends to do the same. VOTE DEVOS!

a bill that insures your "FREEDOM", and, is a money maker for this state. then turn around and from a commitee to promote "TOURISM" in michiganistan. and, this is the middle of july !!!! don't you start promoteing tourism in april if you want people comming in for the summer ????? what in he** is she thinking ? it baffles me how this woman thinks. i'm glad november is not that far away. hey mr.devos, i'm with you !!!

Those examples of proving helmets safer are just about as stupid as anything I've read about the topic. I hope those writers are not typical of all bikers. If anything, the comments show that brain damage has already occured and there is nothing worth saving.

Here are just a few examples proving Jenny did the right thing. USA - Motorcycle traffic deaths increased dramatically statewide in the three years after Florida repealed a helmet law, but figures for the two-county motorcycle Mecca of Volusia and Flagler counties rose at a slower rate.Biker fatalities in the state jumped more than 81 percent during that span, according to a study released Monday by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. In Volusia and Flagler, the number of motorcycle deaths increased 12 percent over the same period despite huge crowds drawn here by such events as Bike Week in March and October's Biketoberfest. That study, and a second by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety, concluded that states that repeal such laws run the risk of increased deaths and mounting health-care costs for injured bikers. The number of deaths for riders younger than 21 nearly tripled and motorcycle injuries have become more expensive to treat, the insurance study reported. The average hospital cost to treat a head injury was $45,602 -- more than four times the $10,000 worth of insurance non-helmeted riders are required to carry. "The reports pretty much mirror what we have seen in other states that have repealed helmet laws. There is a high price to pay for allowing drivers to go without helmets," Rae Tyson, traffic safety administration spokesman, said Monday. "There was an increase in fatalities and a significant increase in medical costs," he said. "Those are costs that will be borne by the residents of Florida." 2000 MICHIGAN MOTORCYCLE FACTS: - In 2000, there were 3,180 motorcycle-involved crashes (compared with 2,820 in 1999) in which 78 riders were killed and 2,541 injured. - Average paid motorcycle claim is $377,830, up from $345,602 in 1997. - In Michigan, the helmet law has saved an estimated 800 lives over the past 13 years. MYTH - Helmets cause neck or spinal cord injuries. Fact - Research has proven this untrue. Five studies reviewed by the GAO all reported a higher incidence of severe neck injuries for unhelmeted riders. An Illinois study found that helmets decrease the number of significant spinal injuries. MYTH - Helmets impair hearing and sight. Fact - "The helmet affects my peripheral vision" and "I can't hear as well" are two common myths neither of which is supported with scientific data. Normal peripheral vision is between 200 and 220. Federal safety standards require that helmets provide 210 of vision. Over 90 percent of crashes happen within a range of 160 (with the majority of the remainder occurring in rear-end collisions), so it's clear that helmets do not affect peripheral vision or contribute to crashes. Hearing is not affected either. Helmets reduce the loudness of noises, but do not affect the rider's ability to distinguish between sounds. The University of Southern California conducted 900 on-scene, in-depth investigations of motorcycle crash scenes, and could not uncover a single case in which a rider could not detect a critical traffic sound. Some studies indicate that helmets are useful in reducing wind noise and protecting hearing. MYTH - Motorcycle helmet laws are unconstitutional. Fact - The highest courts in more than 25 states have held motorcycle helmet laws to be constitutional. The Massachusetts motorcycle helmet law was affirmed by the U.S. Supreme Court. "From the moment of the injury, society picks the person up off the highway; delivers him to a municipal hospital and municipal doctors; provides him with unemployment compensation if, after recovery, he cannot replace his lost job, and, if the injury causes permanent disability, may assume the responsibility for his and his family's continued subsistence. We do not understand a state of mind that permits plaintiff to think that only he himself is concerned." - Simon v. Governor of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. Dr. Linda Cosgrove served as the NHTSA Contracting Officer's Technical Representative for the study. We appreciate the guidance and support she provided. Dr. James Hedlund was an independent consultant to the project. 16. Abstract In 1997, Arkansas and Texas became the first states since 1983 to repeal “universal” laws requiring all motorcycle riders to wear helmets. Helmet use under the universal law was 97 percent in statewide surveys (1996 in Arkansas and 1997 in Texas). By May of 1998, observed helmet use had fallen to 52 percent in Arkansas and to 66 percent in Texas. Helmet use among all reported injured motorcyclists in Texas dropped from over 90 percent before the law change in 1997 to 69 percent in the remainder of the year and to 57 percent in 1998. Helmet use of injured young riders still covered by the helmet law also declined. Helmet use among motorcyclists receiving EMS services in Arkansas dropped from about 55 percent in 1996 and in 1997 before the law change, to 33.5 percent in the remainder of 1997 and to 29 percent in 1998. Arkansas EMS data showed an increase in the number of motorcyclists with head injuries. Texas Trauma Registry data showed that the proportion of cases involving head injury increased and that the cost per case of treating head injury increased substantially after the law change. Arkansas motorcycle operator fatalities increased by 21 percent comparing 1998 with 1996. Texas motorcycle operator fatalities increased by 31 percent comparing 1998 with 1996.

Your post of myths, facts, and statistics mean nothing without reporting the increase of registered motorcycles for the same region in question. If you pull up any state that has repealed the helmet law, you will see an increase in registered motorcycles. More registered bikes...more fatalities/accidents REGARDLESS of a helmet law or not. I also like one of your "facts" that says an ESTIMATED 800 lives were saved in a 3 year period..."estimated" is not a fact. "Guess" would be a better choice of words....On another point, I was a motocross racer from the age of 12 till I was 18 and semi-pro, and I would like for the folks that did the full face helmet study to explain to the several kids I witnessed become paralyzed wearing them over the years, that they don't snap your neck. I don't care for Jenny or her decision, or for people like yourself who keep trying to cram these lame, biased, "store bought" statistics and studies down my throat, that refuse to look at ALL the numbers, for a true outcome. And the suggestion that helmets very well may protect my hearing has got to be one of the stupidest things I've read in a long time. I've been riding since the age of 8. I can honestly tell you I am more aware of things going on around me without the additonal 2 1/2 pounds on my head. Until the white lab coats, and pencil pushing bean counters have a few thousand miles on 2 wheels behind them, they will not convince me with manipulated numbers...... Now I want to go out on a limb here and take a guess about you.....I'm guessing you are female..probably have kids... voted for Jenny the first time around, and don't have a motorcycle endorsement on your driver's license. I BET I have at least 3 out of 4 right.

the response. it's amazing to see the the supposed "all knowing" come up with when the know nothing at all. what convinced me it was B.S. is when it started with "INSURANCE"...that was the kicker. again GREAT JOB

admission or artical you have proven thasst the statistics in Florida have been skewed. it took a STATE accident rate and compared it to TWO COUNTIES rate of motorcycle growth??? why not compare it to the STATE motorccycle growth??? D. Kenzie

Thanks for your support, Suppresed....I'm sure there are a lot of other seasoned riders that feel the same way as we do. Let's hope they all come out in force come voting time !!! Keep the fight up against all of the non-riding know-it-alls.

While I do agree with you on most of your points that this was just a regurgitation of somewhat misleading numbers there is one that I'd like to see the ABATE members and supporters stop using. Every time someone says that X many people die in accidents after the repeal of the law where X is a seemingly crazy high number ABATE and supporters always say "well did you take into account how many new registrations for bikes there were?" This is simply ABATE doing the same thing they are criticizing. Using a numbers game to explain their point. Yeah the overall percentage of fatalities may stay the same or even go down, but if the actual number of fatalities goes up, then so will all other related state sponsered costs. Remember those are actual people dying....of course you'll retort by saying how many of these deaths would have been saved by the helmet....that's again the numbers game that gets played on this subject. But using ABATE's thinking that the helmet repeal was the final step in someone's decision to buy a bike (which is a pretty bad thought process to begin with on both rider and ABATE)then it must be considered that having the law, in a round about way, would have saved these people's lives. Again, if you're going to slant numbers one way, they can slant the other. Simple fact X many people died. They aren't coming back law or no law. I'm still waiting to see the push for better driver education. And why don't we have mandated test course driving for later on in life. Some of those blue hairs out there shouldn't be on the road and a mandated road course would weed out the people that don't belong behind the wheel. Its a priviledge, not a right to drive/ride. That being said let's vote out Jenny....I guess for DeVos since there doesn't seem to be anyone else willing to run. As for the law....eh I'm still on the fence, yeah it should be your choice, just as long as it affect me. Joe (as it seems with everything I write, let the flaming begin)

The statistics game has become a little ridiculous in connection with this issue. I think it has for one reason: unless a variable is built into the analysis, the actual safety benefit provided by a motorcycle helmet is shown to be questionable. I wanted to reply to your bottom-line point that more people are killed on motorcycles after a helmet law is repealed. The total number of fatalities does increase after repeal. This happens for a couple of reasons. For one thing, as you mention in yours, more motorcycles are being ridden more often, increasing global exposure. Another contributing factor is the fact that pulling a helmet restriction increases interest in motorcycling and the resulting introduction of many new motorcyclists causes a shift in the pool of riders. Regardless, as I think you acknowledge, both helmet and free states have statistically similar fatality rates. And this is, I think, the crux of the argument: Other than where only threshold crash forces are involved, motorcyle helmets do not appear to offer a huge safety benefit in real world accidents. And in order to make the apples to apples comparison when making a judgment as to safety, then the number of fatalities has to be considered in light of the number of actual accidents. As you point out, motorcycle helmet mandates do, nevertheless, reduce the number of total fatalities. But this seems to be more closely related to a suppression of ridership, particularly "casual use" or commuting, as well as interest in purchasing a first bike. If the helmet law is to be defended because it is associated with a reduction of total fatalities, then the law is supported not based on rider safety, but because the law suppresses use. If this is the standard to be applied, how many other activities and products can be similarly limited because the "totals" can be reduced?

but , with the price of gas going ever higher the motorcycle sales is seeing a huge increse. with that many new inexperenced, or, former older riders are going to be returning to the sport. the way the state of michiganistan handles the AWARENESS and motorcycle safety program causes me great concern. unlike our surrondung states, michiganistan still in the dark ages. and yes costing lives. without increasing AWARENESS and SAFETY ISSUES, jenny just vetoes the bill. in the interview after the veto she said that she thought it was a GOOD IDEA. nothing was said about increasing the AWARENESS OR SAFETY PROGRAM. she still doesn't give a sh** about bikers lives. it's still the same old sh**. a real governor would GOVERN by the will of the people. NOT DICTATE BY THE STROKE OF A PEN !!!! SHE HAS TO GO !!!!

trumphed up figures. the insurance lobby is the one to look out for. if you are a REAL rider you would support this legislation. this is just one of many rightd that ABATE is doing to make it safer on the road for YOU. as a grass roots organization they have been fighting years. if you want to wear the helmet WEAR IT. i don't give a sh**. but don't dictate to me ,like your girlfriend jenny, that you know whats best for me.

isn't it wonderful that the HELMET LAW IS PROTECTING NOTHING.. they were wearing their helmet and still DIED. another STUPID CAR DRIVER hit the motorcycle, backed up then DROVE OFF. THEY ARE STILL ALIVE TO DO IT AGAIN. come on you pro-helmet bumpers. tell us how we need this little piece of plastic to protect us. you all are PATHETIC. i wonder who's father, mother, sister, brother, child, will be affected ? don't blow it off. next time it could be someone you know or love !!!!

Not really facts...just a bunch of propaganda spread by the insurance corporation. The facts are that helmets do little if any good in preventing death or serious injury in accidents with speeds over 25 mph. This is a FACT based on my 30 years of investigating motorcycle accidents as a Police Officer. You can listen to whoever you want and believe all the BS but you are totally ignorant of the real FACTs. The Insurance Industry is the most corrupt industry in the world. Why would you believe anything they say?

police don't get envolved in this issue. in june at the FREEDOM RALLY at the capital the motorcycle police where writing tickets left and right. i understand the state needs the money, but, come on. this was a rally to show our government how much we wanted this law changed. NOT IN MICHIGANISTAN !!! and we wonder why people and busniesses are leaving. dosen't take to many smarts.

His first point was that Florida motorcycle fatalities increased eighty-one percent during the three years after the repeal of its helmet law. Florida's repeal was effective in July, 2000. So his stat's are based on the reporting period from summer 2000 through 2003. Since this is 2006, my first thought was wonder why 2004 and 2005 were left out of the equation? Could it be that the jump in fatalities was due to more riders? More NEW riders? Could it be that the post-repeal bump in ridership is over and numbers are beginning to correct? According to a recent stat published in the Sarasota, Florida Herald Tribune, the number of registered riders in Florida has increased eighty-seven percent since repeal. And this increase doesn't even consider the number of riders who now go to Florida because the commie-cap law has been kicked. Georgia, Alabama and Mississippi currently require helmets for all riders. How many residents of these border states chose to ride free in Florida on the weekends? So fatalities in Florida are up 81%. Not only are registrations up 87%, there is an additional, uncountable population spending more time in the state. It would seem that Florida is actually safer since it repealed its helmet law.

Don't fool yourself, this legislation has ZERO to do with safety. This is 100% pro choice legislation. I am a real rider and have been for many years. I was simply commenting on the numbers game that both sides play to try to convey their point. And like I said before, if wearing a helmet is the last reason that you don't ride, then I'd prefer you not to be riding anyways. I'm okay with you not wearing one. My only thing is, I don't want it to affect MY pocketbook WHEN you go down. That's all and that's fair. Joe

We have no helmet requirement in Colorado. My insurance for a middleweight cruiser fluctuates between $22 and $28 per month depending the season. Don't worry about your wallet. By the way, although I now ride literally every day, throughout the year, I was one who passed on a bike while a resident of Michigan. I had a few concerns, including the crummy roads and lousy weather, but the final straw was the helmet requirement. I couldn't imagine riding around with one of those things in the heat and humidity of the summer. I drove convertibles instead. For me, the law did have its intended effect: It squelched any interest I may have had in motorcycles. Jim Westminster, CO

i'm 56 years old. i feel safer riding in helmet free states because without the commie cap i'm more aware of my surrondings. i'm not over heated in super hot weather. my neck isn't sore from the wind is whipping my head around among other things. the insurance on my harley is three times the requiried amount, plus i have "underinsured" coverage. you shouldn't be worried about me. you should be worried about those idiots that turn left in front of you. that cut you off. that run you off the road, etc. that my friend is way more important than the little plastic "BOWEL" that everyone is so pissy about.

You definitely like flaming me, that's okay, most people don't like me anyways. BUT I do have a few things to say/ask. Okay, you say you carry 3 times the required amount. Right now there isn't a requirment for medical insurance on bikes. Are you talking about the $10k that was going to be required in this bill? Because $30k isn't a whole lot when medical bills start racking up. Just asked the dude that broadsided my car {driver side}...$70k+ in the first week (on my insurance because of another stupid law) But that doesn't matter helmet or no helmet. Well except I'm sure his face wouldn't have been cut up so bad had he been wearing a full face helmet. Hopefully you carry other health insurance. Plus, do you think this is the norm or do you think you are the exception? I know for instance most young riders carry the very least amount of insurance they can because of cost. Others because they feel the insurance company is just a rip off and doesn't want to give their money away.(not that I'd argue that) In fact, I don't carry medical on my bike at all. (but I have excellent health insurance through my employer)I don't carry passengers so that's not a concern to me. You always refer to helmets as either commie caps or bowels. Does this mean that you ride(for now) with just the little half helmet? Not a full face? (brain bucket if you will)If so, how does wearing that affect your senses in the least bit? Do you have ears/eyes on the top of your head? As for that straining your neck, yeah they weigh what...nothing? Yeah, a full face helmet does have a little heft to it, but even on my long days that cover 700-800 miles my neck doesn't hurt and I'm all crouched down as it is...of course I am a little younger ;-)And for overheating...eh I don't know. My helmet has some wonderful ventilation. I do sweat some when its really hot, but I'd rather sweat than bleed. That's just me though. Full face helmets these days have some awesome aerodynamics along with ventilation and visibility. And darn snappy graphics if you just wanna look cool(i'm looking at you mr. mid life crisis pub hopping rider wanna be){no one in particular, but we've all met these people} But as I've always said, if you wanna ride without, I'm cool with that. I may think you're a bit foolish given the danger involved, but its your choice to be.(should be your choice) As for cagers being the most dangerous aspect of riding, yep 100% correct there. I'm hoping that with these higher gas prices the increase in motorcycle sales we are seeing brings about a new line of education for cagers. I haven't seen that bill get proposed yet. Let's see a bill for increased funding for driver's education. Let's see a mandatory on road driving test every 10 years. How about a real motorcycle skills test that exceeds 25 mph. Or at least funding the current MSF courses so they can offer enough sessions for anyone that wants to take it. Joe

Are flaming Joe? You better cut it out. You've got him arguing all sides of this issue simutaneously. Jim Westminster, CO

TOTALLY !! as far as pub riding, i do that to on occation. but, that is one of very few thing left in this sorry state to do. my coverage is $500,000 per accident. the rest is covered by MCCA, you know the thing we all pay into per vehicle, per year that is a ripoff. why have your employer pay for your medical ? i'm retired an i pay $1900.00 every three months for mine. plus motorcyle insurance. do you think i pay enough ???? i think that i PAY way more than you junior. so don't give me that stuff about YOU paying for MY injuries. you have a long way to go. we should go back to at fault insurance. that way we would see those that run over motorcyclist, run them off the road, cut them off would BE off the road. have a happy harley day.

think they know whts best for us all. i have 94000 miles on my harley. the last two had 70000 miles. thats not counting the numerous bikes i had before them. most of those miles were in helmet free states. lets see, all that gas tax money not in michiganistan. motel tax money not in michganistan. all other taxes and profit money that michiganistan could have gotten...gone !!! and i'm just one person. imagine all the others that take their money out. plus think of the thousands of riders in states around us that don't come here. talking millions of dollars here folks. but hey, we don't need the money. JENNY WILL TAKE CARE OF US. YEAH RIGHT !!!!!

think they know whts best for us all. i have 94000 miles on my harley. the last two had 70000 miles. thats not counting the numerous bikes i had before them. most of those miles were in helmet free states. lets see, all that gas tax money not in michiganistan. motel tax money not in michganistan. all other taxes and profit money that michiganistan could have gotten...gone !!! and i'm just one person. imagine all the others that take their money out. plus think of the thousands of riders in states around us that don't come here. talking millions of dollars here folks. but hey, we don't need the money. JENNY WILL TAKE CARE OF US. YEAH RIGHT !!!!!

I was just guessing that you were a real a-hole but now I'm done guessing.....Aint no doubt about it, you are a flaming a-hole.

I'm Frank...I wrote the "i beg to differ" post, one regarding what I pay in insurance a while back, and several in between.....Just to recap, I'm sure I pay far more into the MCCA than most, as I have 2 Harleys, my truck, my car, my classic car, and my wife's mini van. If that's not enough, I have additional on the motorcycle policies...then I have a ridiculous amount of coverage through my work (yes, motorcycle related injuries are covered), but still opted for for EVEN MORE coverage with 2 supplemental policies. Why so much you ask ??? I live in Michigan, where motorcycles seem to be regarded as a bother and a pain in the ass, that are not worth protecting. I feel my rights as a cyclist are second rate. If some kid or soccer mom plows into me, or cuts in front of me, because they are yapping on the phone or eating lunch, or just "didn't see me", I want to be sure my wife doesn't have to sell the house, or a kidney, to pay for my medical bills.....I think I have enough coverage to ride "dangerously" without a helmet....and something about every Harley rider I know, or have known over the years...We're not in a real big hurry to get where we're going..our bikes can't do 160+ MPH off the showroom floor...and I am positive that out of all the bikes I've seen doing wheelies down M-59, or I-94, non of them have been Harleys. And before someone throws Harley riders are just on their bike in search of a bar,or already drunk, I'm sure there are a pretty good number of kids/people riding the other style of bike, who drink, smoke dope or do designer type drugs. It really should be no suprise that we are the ones that make the biggest deal about helmet use. Maybe the helmet laws should be written to let us that enjoy the ride go without a lid, and make the wanna-be GP and stunt riders and speed freaks wear a helmet ?????

Let's just keep it simple...outlaw motorcycles on all expressways and highways. Then we wouldn't have to worry as much.

And that doesn't seem like an emotional answer? By writing in caps, you're telling all of us that your yelling, which is an expression of emotion. I guess we all know which brain you were using.

Let's just keep it simple...outlaw BAD DRIVERS on all expressways and highways. Then we wouldn't have to worry as much. Frank

i wouldn't figure you for a harley rider. you see we are supposed just dumb bikers not knowing whats good for us..

stuck to their heads. stupid people that don't know what a mirror is for before changing lanes. stupid people that have their stereo so loud that they can't here someone along side them. stupid people that are running their mouth so much they don't pay attention to the road. stupid people like YOU that probably voted for jenny, drive a big gas guzzeling suv. that would like to see more freedoms of people taken away until it effects YOU. then you would be the first to piss and moan the loudist. what a LOSER !!

You're right.....It's a damn shame we get the dumb drunk biker rap all the time. Yeah, to look at me, most people, including the cops would think I should be in a police line up, or on the 6 o'clock news. It doesn't mean I'm dumb and don't know what day it is. I got my first Harley 22 years ago, and have been getting this kind of crap ever since( I'm 42 now). Oh well...I'm sure our mommy gov. will keep looking out for me till I'm all grown up. (or at least until she's unemployed) Frank