Michigan Votes Forum

Introduced in the Senate on January 25, 2005

Click here to view bill details.

Grand idea, However the MEA will fight this as the teachers union will lose money.

Better yet - get MESSA out of the insurance business. They have a strangle hold over local school districts This is still a great idea. Need to make sure the local district are required to move to this insurance - MESSA would not be an option!

The state’s welfare and decisions belong to the citizens not a pumped up MEA!

This could be a quick fix to current public school budget problems. But a school voucher system that make all schools compete (private and public) would be a better long run approach.

Actually, this bill proposes to restrict rather than expand local school district options, and would stifle rather than encourage competition in securing health benefit packages for employees. Local school boards have sufficient authority, now, to bargain on the issue of health insurance plan cost. MEA and MESSA bashers and would-be union busters won’t like that observation, but their chagrin doesn’t make it less than the truth. This is just another Lansing scheme to stifle competition and end local control of anything governmental. If you’re looking for good fixes to school budget problems dictated from Lansing, push the Legislature to require that local districts go on a “user pays” basis for non-mandated, non-curricular program services. This would require user fees to cover all costs associated with transportation and athletics, which consume big chunks of annual school budgets these days. At the same time push the Legislature to quit imposing unfunded mandates for additional service and program requirements on local schools, which drive up operating costs.

Reply to Not So Fast. Yes you do have a valid point. But in my local district negotiations have been on going for a full year now. Local resident with children in school are afraid of expressing true differences on this issue for being afraid of in class re-procussion on the kids. At least this makes it a state wide issue.

Wow...I'm proud of the MEA and its willingness to go to bat for the teachers in this state. And if the rest of you on here are teachers as well, then I am ashamed of you because you will be the first one's complaining about your health insurance if this goes through. I suppose none of you are part of your district's negotiating teams are you?

I'm sorry but the MEA has had control of our public schools for the past 40 years or more. They have become a legalized mafia. This group has never experience pure competition like most private business face everyday. That is why I bash them. Don't get me wrong. There are some wonderful educators out there. But the union protects too many weak ones. Tell me what other occupation can you walk into and get 4 months off every year in or even take a full year off and still get your job back. We need to encourage pure competition in educational institutions. Because pure competition has always brought about better quality products at a lower price. It is pure and simple fact!.

Teachers don't get 4 months off, friend. Sure there isn't school in the summer, but that doesn't mean that teachers get that time off. You say: "Tell me what other occupation can you walk into and get 4 months off every year in or even take a full year off and still get your job back." I reply: Tell me what other occupation requires you to continually take college courses, usually on your own dime, IN ADDITION TO many, many hours of professional development. No, don't bother answering. There is none. If you factor in the amount of time most teachers spend preparing for classes and taking classes and such beginning teachers make less than their students who work at McDonalds. Furthermore, you say: "We need to encourage pure competition in educational institutions. Because pure competition has always brought about better quality products at a lower price. It is pure and simple fact!." Your pure and simple fact is the reason that many of the students in public schools have parents who used to work at Electrolux or Dana and now don't. They're working at Walmart without benefits, so their kids come to school sick, blind, and full of cavities. It's not easy to teach children who are in such a situation, but most teachers do. Competition ignores the fact that the reason for Humanity's success is because the Human is a social creature. I would like to apologize to you on behalf of all of the bad teachers in your past. It sounds like you must have a lot. I'm sure you worked your hardest and were a perfect angel in the classroom. Most of the teachers in public schools are extremely dedicated--after all, there's not much incentive to becoming a teacher these days. This bill justs makes teaching much less appealing for prospective teachers. If you would rather not compensate fairly the people who are not only educating your children, but also feeding, healing, loving, and counseling them, then hire a nanny and pay your nanny in potatoes. Better yet, go read to your kids.

This bill eliminates competition. This bill eliminates choice. This bill eliminates the last remaining reason for teachers to teach outside of our passion for it. How will we recruit new teachers when this year's rookies have burned out in five years? That's an accurate statistic: most new teachers leave the profession within five years. We work hard for our communities, leave local control in the hands of local districts. My paycheck does not say "State of Michigan" on it, why should the state dictate my insurance options?

Listen we can argue till were blue in the face about who works harder. But what will this accomplish? Nothing. I apoligize for being criticle about the teaching proffession. It is a noble one indeed. Upon further review I am not real excited about this bill. I agree with you that it should be left to the local community on what and how they should compensate their instructors. Yet, let me ask you this question. If you had to spend your own hard earn money on your own health benefits. Would you willingly spend 15% more than necessary for that product even though it is not necessary to do so? I am not against the amount of benefits you get. But I am against wasting tax payers money when it is unnecessary.

I agree with abouttime. If were relying on educators like yourself expressing your ideas on competition then our future is in trouble. Competion is what made this country. Tell me this why is the MEA always against anytype of reform that is brought up. Are they the ones scared of competition? How come when they raise your dues you don't complain. But with health care you become unprofessional and rant and rave like little kids wanting candy at the checkout counter. Trust me I've seen it first hand.

If you think your local school district is not doing a good job in controlling costs, then it's up to you -- as a constituent citizen -- to put pressure on the local school board to do so. If that means negotiating a better health insurance package, cost-wise, in teacher union contract bargaining, that's what you should insist your school board does. Remember, the board members represent you. The thing is, if you want your school board to hang tough in negotiations, you have to be willing and ready to support the board and its members, visibly. If you don't have the time, energy or grit to do that, then don't whine about outcomes. Eliminating competition is not the way to bring and hold costs down. Fostering competition is. At least that's what all my conservative friends tell me. And I believe them. This bill would eliminate competition by pulling teacher health benefits under a single state employees system. Draw your own conclusions about what that probably would mean in the long term, if my conservative friends are right. ÿ

hardly anyone knows how poorly our second rate schools are run. the mea uses money that was intended for education to wage war against parents and our economy

That has got to be the single most paranoid, conspiracy-theory-driven pile of crap that I have ever heard. If hardly anyone knows this, how is it that you have this special knowledge. What does the MEA have to gain by battling our economy? The conservative "ideals" of Me First are taking care of that quite nicely. The MEA also does not fight against parents. Teachers need the support of parents in order to provide the best education. Whether you believe it or not, that is what teachers try to do. P.S. Learn how to write a sentence. They start with a capital letter.

I think some of you have forgotten where the real problem is. The problem is... our health care system in general. The cost under any health care plan that provides good benefits has increased dramatically because the so called "market' reforms advocated by conservatives have yielded absolutely nothing but double digit increases in health care costs. Leave to you guys to figure out its better to take away good insurance rather than fix the broken system that denies coverage to millions.

Contract Law 101. Most teachers get off half o June, all of July, and part of August. That is not 4 months off. Secondly, all teachers salaries are based on the time you actually are at work. So if we get the "summer off" , WE ARE NOT GETTING PAID. We are actually given ONLY REASONABLE ASSURANCE OF EMPLOYMENT THE FOLLOWING YEAR. Any teacher who wishes to get paid over the summer must opt to spread their pay over the entire year. We get paid for 42 Weeks and we work 42 weeks. We would probably work more, but then someone would have to pay us more... and we all know thats not going to happen. Besides, it will never happen if the tourism industry has anything to say about it. Remember my friends, its all about the almight dollar.

I'd like to suggest that the paranoid illiterate who wrote "dirty little secret" try what I did when I was jealous of teachers who get all these great benefits: I spent $40,000 (now $75,000) to attend a state university for four years (now five years) to get a degree (and now pass a test). And, hello, the MEA only can spend the dues money that teachers send them. The MEA is not spending your hard earned tax dollars -- your elected school board negoitates a contract with the teachers to spend your hard earned dollars. Your elected school board has had no extra money for four years now, with no improvement in sight. Do you think it's going to get better? Do more school districts (i.e. charters) with more admnistrators mean there will be more money to spend on each child. I don't think so. And what have you done to solve the problem?

Your lack of factual info in regard to the MEA is pitiful. Its similar to your lack of understanding in regard to summer vacation. Ideology is one thing, getting ther correct information is another. It seems to be a real problem for you and your paranoid arguments regarding public schools. The MEA is a lobbying organization and helps teachers in the collective bargaining process. Any money that it spends is not money taken from education. There is absolutely no connection. Saying what you have stated would be like saying that the Mackinac Center is paid for with tax money that was dedicated for education. Hey, I agree there are problems in public education however, you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Be careful what you wish for. Going after teacher benefit packages will only lower the compensation packages offered by districts. In capitalism, you get what you pay for. The more you lower benefits and pay, the lower quality candidates you attract.

Yeah, right. MEA members comments: "The union uses our money for their pet political causes, which many members oppose, and resists any request for full and honest disclosure." More: "Because they run a monopoly that relies on forced payments, union officials can provide services to the membership that are deficient and feel no obligation to give straight answers to questions about the fundamental rights of their own members." http://www.mackinac.org/pubs/mer/article.asp?ID=2514 From a different source: "The teachers unions have more influence over the public schools than any other group in American society . . . The problem is not that the unions are somehow bad or ill-intentioned. They aren't. The problem is that when they simply do what all organizations do--pursue their own interests--they are inevitably led to do things that are not in the best interests of children." http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110006192 Can we at least be honest?

If the MEA is so powerful, then explain to me how many of the proposals it has actively opposed have become law in this state? Again, you are making statements that can not be backed-up with fact. I guarantee the MEA and its supporters would love to have the monopoly you claim they have.

Let's see now. There is Christmas break, Martin Luther King Day, Presidents Day, Spring Break, Winter term break. Maybe it is a little short of 4 months. But when school is off due to weather the vast majority of people still have to go to work. So you do get paid very well for your occupation. Besides when broken down by the rate per hour the average teacher makes more than accountants, computer programmers, architects, fireman, EMT's, police officers, engineers, and many other types of occupations. This doesn't even include the fringe benefits. Oh some of this time off is spent taken course you say. Well many of these occupation have to do the samething. Please go back to your MEA website and ask them where all your dues go to. Why did they have to increase them last summer? Also ask yourself this question. If you spent your own hardworking money on health benefits, why would you spend 15% more on these benefits if you didn't have to? Our school district offere to pay full benefits no question ask if they would take a different health care provider. But your union reps at this district didn't even LOOK! or consider the package. This package offered the exact same benefits! It would of save the district lots of money. Now we have to look at more cuts. This includes laying off more teachers and increasing the class sizes. I guess this is what you want.

To quote a famous conservative you may be familiar with, "there you go again." As far as President's Day, MLK, and Snow Days, you need to know many do not get MLK off and I know of no discrtict that gets President's day off. Finally, the snow days are a safety issue not a "kick-back" for lazy teachers. I know you find it hard to believe but, not everything in education can operate like a business. With regard to the pay issue, because it is a salaried job, you are required to do the work until its done. That means taking home papers and doing lesson planning and research outside of school. That is part of the deal. Additionally, an average week includes well over the traditional 40 hours. When I am coaching, the weeks stretch to 65 or 70. I figured out my coaching pay rate came out to be $2.07 an hour. Finally, I have never once indicated that I was not paid a decent wage. I merely stated that reducing compensation will not help attract quality teachers. I have seen plenty of excellent teachers leave the profession for more lucrative carees in the private sector. Finally, I have seen those so called "exact same coverage" plans and I want you to think about something, Why would the local bargaining unit you are referring to, bite the hand that feeds it. Furthermore, being the savvy cat you claim to be, you should know that not everything is as advertised. If what you claim is true the teachers would have agreed with the district. Finally, when bargaining contracts teachers unions have very little leverage to influence the local school board bargaining team. Contrary to your belief in the monopolistic MEA, the right of teachers to strike was taken away in the mid 1990s. What is to prevent any district form imposing a contrat on its teachers? The answer is not much.

It's Simple. We need an enemy to rally the troops and a public school teachers union is the perfect scapegoat. We want vouchers to help lower our costs of sending our kids to private schools. Sure, poor folks might use them, too, but they don't have the transportation or money to afford supplementing the vouchers. We need to slam the MEA so we can press for vouchers, you idiot!

First of all, lets get something straight. I thought it might have been possible for you and I to have a debate without it turning ugly. The great thing about our country is, although you and I disagree, we still can discuss issues. I am glad however that you have finally shown your real colors. "Scape goats" and "rallying the troops"? I think that might have been a Freudian slip. To keep with the spirit of your cause, you forgot the ever popular NAZI practice of book burning, propaganda, and nationalism. Keeping it simple does work for you because its difficult to comprehend that the problems in education cant be fixed with your 5 minutes of intellectual comtemplation. Seriously, find me one place in America where vouchers, charter schools, Edison or any other management company has done a better job. Oh that might be tough, you'd actually have to think about that one for a while. Looking forward to your response Adolph.

Mr. or Ms. Reason: that was sarcasm. I agree with you. I also can not think of very few places where vouchers, charters, or Edison have worked. But I do think SOME people believe it, and I was spoofing those folks with my voucher comments. I think the answer is to support traditional public education, but I do think we need to have the same professional review boards that the AMA and bar associations do to purge our ranks of the incompetents who play the role of rotten apple. Put differently, never have so few (teachers) done so much for so many (kids) while taking so much crap. Winston

I suspected you were being sarcastic,but based on your other comments I thought I would see for sure. I understand your distrust of the MEA although on balance, I feel the organization does more good than bad. The process to get rid of a bad teacher is there, unfortunatley many administrators are extremely overworked and as a result choose to spend their energies doing something else. Where I work we recently "got rid" of a number of teachers that have overstayed their welcome. I understand this hurts my profession, but I also know that the middle class standing I currently enjoy would not be possible wothout the union. Historically, take a look at teacher's salaries prior to the union movement in this state. For teachers it was the late 1960s and early 1970s.

I was an MEA member for a decade. We had a total nut-job onthe faculty who was obsessed with doing in an administrator, who was obsessed with showing the teacher he was "boss". Finally, the school board and MEA faced off in a series of hearings, over two dozen of them. It cost both sides $250,000 each. Much as we hated to admit it, back in the early '80's, that teacher was out to lunch and the MEA was backing him because that was what the union was supposed to do. Everyone was playing their role. The district attorney used his profits to buy a nice lakefront cabin. I think today the MEA needs to realize that the school boards and teachers have a lot more in common than they did in the '50's - '70's --- the survival and well being of public education is at stake. The administration can no longer just hold a millage to raise the money to meet the demands of a contract. As a school administrator I now hae to deal with double digit health insurance inflation (MEA-MESSA) and retrement costs (MPERS) - - - - with no increase in funding (actually a loss in funding due to lower buying power. Through all of this the MEA refuses to consider other insurance options. I think education is headed for a showdown, possibily exactly what some people intend... I do think PART of the solution is for organized labor to re-think the confrontational approaches used inthe past, or else we will become the next Electrolux and our country will become the next France.

Likewise. Now think about this. Before Engler what was there to prevent any union to enforce there contracts on communities?

I personaly do believe that good teacher should be paid well. How else are you going to keep the good ones. But the issue with this bill is health care. Why should publice school districts have to go through MESSA. Other health care providers offer the same services at a considerable lower price. Why do many publice school teacher associations constest this issue and are so advant at using MESSA? Why won't you even let the publid schools work directly with Blue Cross/Blue Shield?

>Why should publice school districts have to go through MESSA.< This rhetorical question is based on a myth. The fact is, public school districts do not have to go through MESSA, unless that is what they negotiate in the contract with their teachers. If you have a beef with what your school district is doing in this regard, then let your elected board of education trustees know it. Then, be ready to visibly and firmly stand with your school board members who attempt to negotiate what you think is a better deal for the district. If you’re not willng to do that, don’t whine about the outcome. >Other health care providers offer the same services at a considerable lower price.< This may or may not be true. I’d like to see some verifiable data that compares apples to apples and oranges to oranges in terms of actual coverage, co-pays, deductables, premium increase histories, etc., before automatically buying this proposition. SB 55 would eliminate the very sort of competition many here advocate as a means of containing and controlling cost of employee health insurance benefit packages. It also would further erode local control over schools. Passage of SB 55 would not be a step in any right direction. >Before Engler what was there to prevent any union to enforce there contracts on communities?< Looking for ways to permit school districts to evade honoring legitimate contracts they have negotiated and ratified is . . . perverse. The ultimate club teachers unions presumably have in contract negotiation is the threat of going out on strike. In fact, teachers' union strikes were not legal in pre-Engler days, but that aspect of the law was seldom if ever enforced by local school boards and the courts. What Engler did was provide leadership resulting in legislation that strengthened the earlier strike prohibition. This helped restore what school boards and their lawyers had given away over the three-decade history of school teacher collective bargaining in Michigan. Again, the key to seeing your local school board settle a contract of which you approve is to stand visibly and firmly alongside board members as they negotiate the deal. If you are not willing to do that you have no business complaining about the outcome.

Now, there is somone else speaking reasonably. Given the curent situation regarding contract negotiation, teachers have lost a considerable amount of leverage. In fact, after recently going over three years without a contract, I am convinced that teahers have very little control over a school board that is set on limiting its costs through a reduction in teacher benefits.

I agree with you on many of the issues you indicated were pressing. I am not a person who clings to the advasarial ideal of unionism. I understand we are living in a different age. However, teachers unions today have virtually no power contrary to what you have suggested. We have been effectively stripped of almost every bit of our collective security. I look at SB 55 and 56 as another step in that direction. If you are an administrator in the Grand Rapids area or possibly Greenville, a guess from the electrolux comment , then you shoud focus your efforts on working with your bargaining team on reducing costs through local negotiation. Contrary to what you may believe, there are many districts that have successfully moved from MESSA. Creating a huge government bureaucracy to monitor health benefits for teachers and other state employees is a bad idea and counter to everything conservatives stand for. You are right, health care costs are the root of all these problems, perhaps the "showdown" will help move us toward a solution. However, I fear the "band aid" solution of cutting benefits will have a long political life before we finally come to our senses.

I hear you. Something has to give, and the MESSA lock has always bothered me, even tho I benefit. I'm not from Greenville and my staff is not affiliated with the MEA, although they enjoy Blue Cross/BS and probably higher pay. There are alternatives . . . .

what about compensating the bus drivers, parapros, janitors, cafeteria help, playground help, secretarys, and anyone else that comes in contact with these kids. most of these people know the students as well if not better than the teachers but we don't get paid if we don't work and most of use don't get the insurance like the teachers and yes we make considerably less than the teachers but most of us enjoy our jobs and love the kids thats why we chose our jobs we would be happy just to have insurance for our families that cover the basics not the package you teachers get. and sure there are lots of teachers who deserve what they make and even some who are underpaid but then there are those who are overpaid and don't deserve what the lunch lady makes. i have one of those service jobs and my income last year was under 15,000 try supporting afamily and hop like hell they don't get sick

When you look at the bottom line all teachers are state employees and should be covered under state health insurance.

>When you look at the bottom line all teachers are state employees and should be covered under state health insurance.< That assertion has no factual basis. Actually, public school teachers are employed by the local districts for which they work. See the contracts they work under, and the state school code for confirmation of this fact. Public school teachers are “public employees” but not all public employees are state employees.

I think if most people understood what yo said there would be a great deal less discussion on this particular topic. We are paid by the local districts and our contracts are negotiated with the local as well. We pay into a state-run retirement system and the state regulates our certification.

Keep the state out of it and let the teachers do what most of us do..Shop around for the best price and buy it or if you are covered at work most folks pay a good share of it. Name one thing that gets more efficient when taken over by the goverment?